Remove Ogre M&F Aptitude

[Turukano]

Pure melee Ogre is much easier than any Naga. +3 aptitudes in fighting/m&f are crazy powerful. I currently have an Ogre with 196 HP and GSC at min delay at XL 17 (before getting any runes). Defenses are not important yet since you can run away from everything unlike Naga.

This begs for being put to the topic Famous last words.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Pure melee Ogre is much easier than any Naga. +3 aptitudes in fighting/m&f are crazy powerful. I currently have an Ogre with 196 HP and GSC at min delay at XL 17 (before getting any runes). Defenses are not important yet since you can run away from everything unlike Naga.

This begs for being put to the topic Famous last words.

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what. AC 8/EV 21 is just a nice bonus, I don't count on it.
I would put "My Gr has AC 70 and EV 30, it cannot die" into Famous last words thread instead, especially since Gr has 199 HP at most...

[Shard1697]

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what.

not to be needlessly pedantic, but this is... untrue

[VeryAngryFelid]

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what.

not to be needlessly pedantic, but this is... untrue

Ok, you are right. If I had a cat and it was walking on my keyboard, I'd be dead.

[papilio]

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what. AC 8/EV 21 is just a nice bonus, I don't count on it.
I would put "My Gr has AC 70 and EV 30, it cannot die" into Famous last words thread instead, especially since Gr has 199 HP at most...

Playing warrior as Gargoyles, once passed D:8, I can definitely vanquish almost everything until 15 runes with just o,tab,5 and rarely other keys.
With Ogres of course I cannot.

I wouldn't be the only one who think like this.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Playing warrior as Gargoyles, once passed D:8, I can definitely vanquish almost everything until 15 runes with just o,tab,5 and rarely other keys.
With Ogres of course I cannot.

I wouldn't be the only one who think like this.

Let's not forget how most characters die, especially ones played by good players. They don't die slowly to attrition getting hit for 5 damage multiple times, they die to damage spikes and here I prefer to be an ogre with huge HP. It's somewhat similar to "casters vs melee". It's easier to play melee for new players and casters cannot kill everything with tab but they become more powerful than melee when played by experienced player.

[Siegurt]

Playing warrior as Gargoyles, once passed D:8, I can definitely vanquish almost everything until 15 runes with just o,tab,5 and rarely other keys.
With Ogres of course I cannot.

I wouldn't be the only one who think like this.

Let's not forget how most characters die, especially ones played by good players. They don't die slowly to attrition getting hit for 5 damage multiple times, they die to damage spikes and here I prefer to be an ogre with huge HP. It's somewhat similar to "casters vs melee". It's easier to play melee for new players and casters cannot kill everything with tab but they become more powerful than melee when played by experienced player.

Well, don't forget that low AC and low EV does increase the number and degree of the damage spikes, so even in your paradigm (where you can always escape, and more hps lowers the frequency of death from spikes) low AC and low EV does increase likelihood of death somewhat.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Well, don't forget that low AC and low EV does increase the number and degree of the damage spikes, so even in your paradigm (where you can always escape, and more hps lowers the frequency of death from spikes) low AC and low EV does increase likelihood of death somewhat.

I liked how you used "somewhat" here. Isn't it close to "not important","not a big deal" etc. Or did I use wrong wording and it has different meaning in English?

[VeryAngryFelid]

I can try to prove that defenses are not important yet:
TrFi who trained Fighting to 27 first, then UC to 27 having something like AC 15, EV 9 and still didn't have any problems in Lair.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17412&p=239470

[Siegurt]

Well, don't forget that low AC and low EV does increase the number and degree of the damage spikes, so even in your paradigm (where you can always escape, and more hps lowers the frequency of death from spikes) low AC and low EV does increase likelihood of death somewhat.

I liked how you used "somewhat" here. Isn't it close to "not important","not a big deal" etc. Or did I use wrong wording and it has different meaning in English?

"somewhat" is more than "not important" but less than "significant"

[VeryAngryFelid]

Ok, defenses are never meaningless, just not that important with huge HP.

[Shard1697]

you can have both, though

[VeryAngryFelid]

Not with Ogre.

[NhorianScum]

Not with Ogre.

Large shield tho.

[papilio]

I can try to prove that defenses are not important yet:
TrFi who trained Fighting to 27 first, then UC to 27 having something like AC 15, EV 9 and still didn't have any problems in Lair.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17412&p=239470

That's because Tr has extremely good regen rate.
The real problem of having low AC+EV is that you cannot do combats for long,
because the damages stack up and Crawl lack an immediate-full-restore panic button (except Borgnjor).
Troll's regen rate offsets some portion of this problem.

You would say "Hey, then you can always stop the battle and run to upstair or anywhere else!"
But that's simply not always the case.

[stickyfingers]

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what.

Blink allies encircling with constriction and nagarajas cancelling your tele attempts. Add slow for the extra fun.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Why? With 196 HP I am guaranteed to live no matter what.

Blink allies encircling with constriction and nagarajas cancelling your tele attempts. Add slow for the extra fun.

Notice I was saying "yet", having this specific situation in mind (among other things like Vault Sentinel and packs of ugly things)

[Siegurt]

OTOH, new ogres do make for really good transmuters.

[Vajrapani]

OTOH, new ogres do make for really good transmuters.

Isn't it a worse version of TrTm, or is -1 transmutations and -1 earth magic(for statue,I assume) that good?

[VeryAngryFelid]

I can try to prove that defenses are not important yet:
TrFi who trained Fighting to 27 first, then UC to 27 having something like AC 15, EV 9 and still didn't have any problems in Lair.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17412&p=239470

That's because Tr has extremely good regen rate.
The real problem of having low AC+EV is that you cannot do combats for long,
because the damages stack up and Crawl lack an immediate-full-restore panic button (except Borgnjor).
Troll's regen rate offsets some portion of this problem.

You would say "Hey, then you can always stop the battle and run to upstair or anywhere else!"
But that's simply not always the case.

I don't see any difference between losing 5 HP per turn with 50 max HP character and 10 HP per turn with 100 max HP character, you still are going to die in 10 turns. I prefer the latter because it makes you better vs damage spikes. You can avoid all fights in D, L and O unless you are extremely unlucky with teleportation sources, huge HP pool allows to survive dangerous situations easily.

[Siegurt]

OTOH, new ogres do make for really good transmuters.

Isn't it a worse version of TrTm, or is -1 transmutations and -1 earth magic(for statue,I assume) that good?

Well, trolls are just flat out better than nuOgres, however a TrTm plays a lot like any other troll, tear things up with claws, mostly ignore magic, because you just don't need it and it is expensive, you could argue that a troll anything is better than an ogre, because you just play trolls like a troll no matter what background.

NuOgres at least derive some substantial benefit from training transmutations, they aren't any worse than any other race at unarmed, already can't use most of the equipment that most races lose access to when transmuted and have a big pile of hps to buff the transmuted forms, and get cheap fighting skill.

That is to say, if i want to play a transmuter and use transmuter spells, nuOgre is now a pretty good choice, race-wise. I probably wouldn't bother with spells as a troll, at least not until very late.

[duvessa]

trolls were just flat out better than old ogres too

[severen]

High aptitudes in a specific weapon type are only a "no-brainer" when not taking into account loot generation. If you get a very excellent Axe artifact that is highly unlikely to be bested by a mace then there is in fact a fairly significant and not easy decision to be made.

However in practice this situation is fairly rare and people start a character with a specific weapon path in mind when they do certain species (humans and other even apt species can afford to leave it open to early drops).

There is nothing wrong with have certain species tend toward preferring certain types of weapons. Rather than removing flavor in the species it would probably be better to address any issues of "no-brainers" with loot generation.