An Attempt at a Race Tier List Backed by Consensus

[lethediver]

In this thread, I will attempt to form a power ranking of the races in DCSS. Please feel free to contribute - at the end, I will attempt to average out all the submissions and arrive at a tier list backed by some consensus. Preferred to leave out any species you do not have much knowledge/experience of.

My choices:

T1: Deep Dwarf, Gargoyle, Deep Elf, Minotaur
T2: Vine Stalker, Troll, Merfolk, Felid
T3: Ogre, Naga, Octopode, Tengu, High Elf, Draconian
T4: Human, Centaur, Kobold, Halfling, Vampire, Demigod, Ghoul
T5: Mummy

[radinms]

any race that died at early game is weak

[lethediver]

any race that died at early game is weak

Which ones?

[nago]

Mountain Dwarves, it was just 0.10 when they met the axe

[Sprucery]

Bad: Op, Fo, Mu
Good: everything else

This despite the fact that my win% with Fo is 50.

[Lasty]

The project of coming to a tavern-wide consensus on power rankings is, I strongly suspect, entirely doomed. That said, my two cents, listed in a very rough order of power level.

T1 (basically impossible to lose in a 3-rune game if played correctly) : Centaur, Spriggan, Deep Dwarf, Troll
T2 (very strong species that rarely lose if played correctly): Merfolk, Hill Orc, Demigod, Minotaur, Vine Stalker, Felid
T3 (solid species): Draconian, Human, Gargoyle, Ogre, Ghoul, Kobold, Halfling, Vampire, Tengu
T4 (weak species): High Elf, Octopode, Naga, Deep Elf
T5 (Terrible species): Mummy

[TeshiAlair]

The project of coming to a tavern-wide consensus on power rankings is, I strongly suspect, entirely doomed. That said, my two cents, listed in a very rough order of power level.

T1 (basically impossible to lose in a 3-rune game if played correctly) : Centaur, Spriggan, Deep Dwarf, Troll
T2 (very strong species that rarely lose if played correctly): Merfolk, Hill Orc, Demigod, Minotaur, Vine Stalker, Felid
T3 (solid species): Draconian, Human, Gargoyle, Ogre, Ghoul, Kobold, Halfling, Vampire, Tengu
T4 (weak species): High Elf, Octopode, Naga, Deep Elf
T5 (Terrible species): Mummy

I'd personally put Tengu into T4 just because I find them really hard to get off the ground due to fragility. Also, where would you put Demonspawn? I'd say T3.

[kuniqs]

Tonight on Crawl's Strongest Species: the Mummy Returns! Sponsored by Optimal Play, because nothing says Crawl like running around in circles and throwing rocks at people...

[zxc23]

The project of coming to a tavern-wide consensus on power rankings is, I strongly suspect, entirely doomed. That said, my two cents, listed in a very rough order of power level.

T1 (basically impossible to lose in a 3-rune game if played correctly) : Centaur, Spriggan, Deep Dwarf, Troll
T2 (very strong species that rarely lose if played correctly): Merfolk, Hill Orc, Demigod, Minotaur, Vine Stalker, Felid
T3 (solid species): Draconian, Human, Gargoyle, Ogre, Ghoul, Kobold, Halfling, Vampire, Tengu
T4 (weak species): High Elf, Octopode, Naga, Deep Elf
T5 (Terrible species): Mummy

I mosty like this, with tweaks.

Deep Dwarf, Troll
Centaur
Minotaur, Hill Orc
Spriggan
Ogre, Draconian
Merfolk, Ghoul, Gargoyle, Felid
Human, Vampire, Demigod, Demonspawn
High Elf, Vine Stalker, Kobold, Halfling
Deep Elf, Tengu
Naga, Octopode, Formicid
Mummy

[ZipZipskins]

There were 24 items in your list. Here they are in random order:
1.Octopode
2.Deep Dwarf
3.Tengu
4.Kobold
5.Human
6.Vampire
7.Vine Stalker
8.Felid
9.Minotaur
10.Hill Orc
11.Spriggan
12.High Elf
13.Deep Elf
14.Gargoyle
15.Demonspawn
16.Merfolk
17.Mummy
18.Ghoul
19.Centaur
20.Ogre
21.Halfling
22.Demigod
23.Draconian
24.Naga

[advil]

T1 ... Troll

...
Deep Dwarf, Troll
...

I was wondering if either of you could say more about Tr here?

On the topic of consensus, one reason why this is pretty hopeless is that there just aren't enough strong players who genuinely have experience beyond anecdotes with every race. I'm not really that strong in the scale of what's possible but I have one at least one win with every species (the not-perfectly-named "greatplayer" accomplishment) and the only two species I could confidently rank in this fashion are DD and Mu -- hence my curiosity about Tr from players who I do believe are capable of ranking lots of species. I suspect even most greatplayers are like me, it takes a tremendous amount of time already to get that badge and it still isn't enough imo to have reliable strong opinions for most species.

[zxc23]

T1 ... Troll

...
Deep Dwarf, Troll
...

I was wondering if either of you could say more about Tr here?

On the topic of consensus, one reason why this is pretty hopeless is that there just aren't enough strong players who genuinely have experience beyond anecdotes with every race. I'm not really that strong in the scale of what's possible but I have one at least one win with every species (the not-perfectly-named "greatplayer" accomplishment) and the only two species I could confidently rank in this fashion are DD and Mu -- hence my curiosity about Tr from players who I do believe are capable of ranking lots of species. I suspect even most greatplayers are like me, it takes a tremendous amount of time already to get that badge and it still isn't enough imo to have reliable strong opinions for most species.

Troll has +30% hp, obscene damage via claws UC which works with every background, and regen lends a lot of survivability. It's ridiculously strong in the early game, and doesn't depend on RNG for weapons later on. So it's the most reliable race for me.

[Lasty]

I'd personally put Tengu into T4 just because I find them really hard to get off the ground due to fragility. Also, where would you put Demonspawn? I'd say T3.

I'd put Demonspawn towards the bottom of T3. Unless you get lucky, they're a bit rough in the early game, but they generally have a good mid-to-late game. Tengu are right at the bottom of T3 for me, but they get speed and bonus EV relatively early, and that's a big deal.

[WalkerBoh]

I think you need some qualification. For example, which of these questions are you trying to answer:

- Which race would I choose if I have to win the next game and can pick any background? (i.e., max winnability)
- If I played every background on a given race once, which one can I win the highest % of games with? (i.e., general winnability)

You'll get very different answers depending on the question. Also, are you assuming "optimal play"? Because that really opens a whole can of worms.

[bcadren]

I'm a weird player so my opinion is also going to be weird but:

Best: Troll, Deep Dwarf (Makh), Vine Stalker, Spriggan, Gargoyle, Centaur
Good: Octopode, Tengu, Kobold, High Elf, Deep Elf, Gargoyle, Merfolk, Ghoul, Draconian, Formacid
Average: Human, Vampire, Mummy, Halfling, Demigod
Bad: Minotaur, Hill Orc, Ogre, Naga
Horrible: Deep Dwarf (Not Makh), Felid

[Splitting DD into makh and not makh is really necessary. DD(Makh) [also DD(TSO) in extended are plain broken. DD (Not Makh) is hard to keep alive at all. I call it dying a slow death, sure your defenses are higher than average, but no healing unless you constantly recharge a wand will keep you low on MP and eventually you'll have none.]

EDIT: I forgot Fo.

[Sar]

Have you tried DD of Trog or Ely? Haven't tried Ely myself, but DD of Trog is really fine, at least in 3 runes.

Also now DD^Pak is viable.

[Jeremiah]

The project of coming to a tavern-wide consensus on power rankings is, I strongly suspect, entirely doomed. That said, my two cents, listed in a very rough order of power level.

T1 (basically impossible to lose in a 3-rune game if played correctly) : Centaur, Spriggan, Deep Dwarf, Troll
T2 (very strong species that rarely lose if played correctly): Merfolk, Hill Orc, Demigod, Minotaur, Vine Stalker, Felid
T3 (solid species): Draconian, Human, Gargoyle, Ogre, Ghoul, Kobold, Halfling, Vampire, Tengu
T4 (weak species): High Elf, Octopode, Naga, Deep Elf
T5 (Terrible species): Mummy

That's very close to how I'd rank them, except that I'd put High Elf above Tengu (I've probably played these two species more than any of the others) and also I'd probably have Draconian in T2.

[bcadren]

I'll note that my general playstyle abuses the magic system so my rankings so bad at magic types...are lower ranked than most other people would, Troll is an exception, because trolls positives are so good to make up for being naturally bad at magic. I can't say that of Minotaur or Ogre.

[tabstorm]

DCSS race power rankings - roughly in order

Tier 1:
By far the best species:
Deep Dwarf

Tier 2:
The races with a movespeed bonus that aren't Felids:
Centaur, Spriggan

Tier 3+:
Strong melee races:
Troll, Minotaur
Tier 3:
Races with good intrinsic abilities and/or outstanding aptitude in a weapon skill, that aren't Ogres:
Hill Orc, Merfolk, Vine Stalker, Draconian, Gargoyle, Felid (I feel bad putting Felid higher even though I guess it's technically correct)
Tier 3-
Not as good as the above, but significantly better than most races below.
Demigod, Halfling, Human, Ghoul

Tier 4:
Races strong in melee with major drawbacks
Ogre, Formicid (Some people won't like this ranking, but Formicid is extremely easy once a shield drops imo)

Tier 5:
Weak races - Low HP with higher aptitudes in conjuration and stealth (which are weak in the DCSS metagame)
High Elf, Vampire, Kobold

Tier 6:
Extremely frail races with bad defenses, awful in melee:
Tengu, Octopode, Deep Elf

Garbage tier:
A special level of bad.
Mummy, Naga (Yes, I think Nagas are worse than Mummies. The irony of me liking Chei but thinking Nagas are awful is not lost on me.)

I still would rate DD the best race if they had a normal healing mechanic and no damage shaving, I think. They're good at everything important in the game (weapon skill, no slot restrictions, evo/invo, armor/dodging, translocations, +2 HP, MR5, high stats).

[Clownie]

(Some people won't like this ranking, but Formicid is extremely easy once a shield drops imo)

Or you can start as a fighter and win unless an adder kills you before you get it off the ground.

[tabstorm]

My rankings are using a naive "average over backgrounds". Note that the top races have playstyles they can easily default to regardless of floor drops (DD Mi Tr Ce Sp HO Mf) or are good at a number of things with good racial abilities (VS Dr Gr) and the weaker races do not have this. For instance, a Deep Elf will be atrocious at basically any background outside of the Mage column, but you can play a Minotaur with any mage background and default to your normal playstyle with less Str and more Int.

Also, Fo is not a frail race. If Fo had only -Tele they would be solidly at the higher end of my tier 3.

[Blade]

Race power rankings (best classes):
Maximum: Deep Dwarf > Spriggan > Minotaur > Merfolk
Very High: Hill Orc > Deep Elf > Troll > Gargoyle > Vine Stalker > Draconian
High: Demigod = Felid = Ghoul = Tengu = Human = Mummy = Demonspawn
Medium: Formicid > High Elf > Ogre > Kobold > Vampire
Low: Octopode > Naga

Race power rankings (random class):
Very High: Deep Dwarf > Minotaur > Merfolk > Hill Orc > Troll > Gargoyle
High: Centaur > Vine Stalker > Draconian > Spriggan > Ghoul
Medium: Demigod > Demonspawn > Human > Kobold
Low: High Elf > Formicid > Naga > Ogre > Vampire > Tengu > Deep Elf
Very Low: Felid > Octopode > Mummy

Reasoning as follows:
The range "Very High - Maximum" contains races that I expect a decent player to be able to win almost every time if they're focusing. Most are self-explanatory here.
Low and Very Low have significant survivability problems.

I ranked spriggans significantly lower with random class because they suffer a lot early-game with the wrong class. In the hands of the best players, they're still almost untouchable, but so is everything. I could see myself ranking them much lower. Same reasoning for felids, although my dislike of felids biases my rankings in both cases.
Mummies are quite good with their best classes and pretty terrible other than that.
I didn't rank halflings because I don't think halflings should exist
Deep elves are by far the most polarized, since they are incredible in their recommended classes and terrible elsewhere. No other race comes close here.
Everything else is self-explanatory

[prozacelf]

Have you tried DD of Trog or Ely? Haven't tried Ely myself, but DD of Trog is really fine, at least in 3 runes.

Also now DD^Pak is viable.

I think Trog is better than Ely now, since it's now harder to keep your Ely piety where it needs to be than it was.

[WingedEspeon]

gargoyle is defiantly not tier 1. Good, but dies to smiting to easily. Deep elf isn't good enough to get near tier 1 much less tier 2.

[bcadren]

gargoyle is defiantly not tier 1. Good, but dies to smiting too easily.

Same reason I don't get people rating felids highly. Too much of a chance of getting one-shot before you even get your second life. And even when you have them, the extra lives due a poor job of making up for REALLY REALLY bad HP/Defenses.

[DrKe]

Vp is strong because batform.

[radinms]

Vp will die before Lv3, bad thing

[bcadren]

Vp will die before Lv3, bad thing

If you play Vp as alive (feed constantly whenever you can and/or go Jivya) they are like slightly better humans. (Mostly average apts, a few below average, some very good). Playing at lower hunger levels is too finicky for words though. That said, lack of ability to have rTorm without also having no regeneration OR worship any "good god"...makes them weaker than average for extended. Not super weak, but weak.

  Code:

Fighting: -1, Short: 1, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: -2, Polearms: -1, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 5!, Shields: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: 4!, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: 1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 1, Fire: -2, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: -1, Inv: -1*, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0