Enable Beogh to everyone

[Croases]

I can't see why that shouldn't happen, beyond flavor reasons. Other species can be honorary orcs I guess?

It's not like Beogh is an exceptionally powerful god, so being able to take him as a non-orc just increases your options without forcing you into taking him. Having more options is good!

[all before]

Beogh's racism or speciesism or whatever also creates the common misconception that the only reason to play HO is Beogh.

[Sar]

anti-Beogh is a codeword for anti-orc

[Viashino_wizard]

The option to worship their own exclusive god is like the one thing HO have to make themselves stand out from just being the mid-point between humans and minotaurs though.

[Tiktacy]

Beogh's racism or speciesism or whatever also creates the common misconception that the only reason to play HO is Beogh.

"Misconception"

Spoiler: show

For the record, I fully support OP's idea. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[all before]

The option to worship their own exclusive god is like the one thing HO have to make themselves stand out from just being the mid-point between humans and minotaurs though.

Invo +3 is huge for any god where you want a high invo skill.

[prozacelf]

Which, ironically enough, doesn't necessarily include Beogh, although I've been told that smite is much better than it used to be.

[Viashino_wizard]

The option to worship their own exclusive god is like the one thing HO have to make themselves stand out from just being the mid-point between humans and minotaurs though.

Invo +3 is huge for any god where you want a high invo skill.

Fair point.

On another note, would orc priests now offer everyone the chance to convert, or would Beogh just be made a temple god? And if he was, would HO still get proselytized at by the boys in green?

[johlstei]

My version of this would have him just be the god of racial purity, and let you recruit enemies of your own race, balance be damned. Maybe it could force shoals if you're a merfolk or snake if you're a naga. It's also fine with me for HO to continue having their own thing, I'd just like to try recruiting merfolk aquamancers or naga sharpshooters or whatever.

[Viashino_wizard]

So VS and Fo are just SOL then.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

no more SOL than they are now, though - technically. Just consider Mu/Dr/Ds though...

Making Beogh a temple god is a separate matter from letting non-orcs worship him. And it's not unprecedented for orcs to proselytize to humans:

By all accounts the orcs were not happy with Mennas. They demanded he swear Beogh was the one true god, and when Mennas remained silent they cut out his tongue.

[Tressol]

DE would be pretty huge too, honestly. Also, presumably Human wouldn't suck (many unique humanoids are human - Nikolai, Margery (and hell knights) and Maude all spring to mind).

Wait, can you cast charms (Haste, specifically) and/or use Wands of Haste/Healing/etc on magic immune allies? Because that could make a Blademaster pet pretty insane.

The usefulness of the god would be really species-dependent if it was done this way. Orcs already have a (quasi-balanced) progression to them. Making this work for, say, Octopodes (or god forbid Felids) would require a bunch of new monsters to be written, essentially, and then these would have to somehow be remotely balanced against one another (which they almost definitely would not be).

[Tiktacy]

DE would be pretty huge too, honestly. Also, presumably Human wouldn't suck (many unique humanoids are human - Nikolai, Margery (and hell knights) and Maude all spring to mind).

Wait, can you cast charms (Haste, specifically) and/or use Wands of Haste/Healing/etc on magic immune allies? Because that could make a Blademaster pet pretty insane.

The usefulness of the god would be really species-dependent if it was done this way. Orcs already have a (quasi-balanced) progression to them. Making this work for, say, Octopodes (or god forbid Felids) would require a bunch of new monsters to be written, essentially, and then these would have to somehow be remotely balanced against one another (which they almost definitely would not be).

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but humans don't suck. I believe many players consider them to be the best species.

Also, blademaster pets will never happen outside of extremely rare circumstances. They seem way too powerful to be used as allies.

Also, yes I believe magic immune allies can be unless it was changed in the last 2 versions. I remember abusing haste on my allies with a vampire of nemelex whenever I got the blades card(or any allies really).

[bcadren]

Also, blademaster pets will never happen outside of extremely rare circumstances. They seem way too powerful to be used as allies.

Nemelex (or a Floor Deck of Wonders) can already give a Blademaster pet.

  Code:

<Sequell> mercenary card[2/4]: Possible mercenaries are: big kobold, merfolk, naga, tengu, orc knight, centaur warrior, spriggan rider, ogre mage, minotaur, random coloured (classless) draconian, deep elf blademaster. Higher card power level makes more of them available, and starts you higher up the list.

[Tiktacy]

Also, blademaster pets will never happen outside of extremely rare circumstances. They seem way too powerful to be used as allies.

Nemelex (or a Floor Deck of Wonders) can already give a Blademaster pet.

  Code:

<Sequell> mercenary card[2/4]: Possible mercenaries are: big kobold, merfolk, naga, tengu, orc knight, centaur warrior, spriggan rider, ogre mage, minotaur, random coloured (classless) draconian, deep elf blademaster. Higher card power level makes more of them available, and starts you higher up the list.

Nemelex doesn't give mercenarie card anymore.

Also, like I said, extrenely rare circumstances.

[Quazifuji]

I think the issue with letting everyone recruit their own race would be more the gifting than the conversion. Slowly turning your lowly orcs into warlords is a big part of Beogh, I think (at least flavor-wise). And Tressol pointed out, I don't think there's any other race that really has a similar progression to them. Merfolk, Naga, Ogres, Trolls, and Elves do somewhat but nothing as nice as orc->warrior->knight->warlord, Draconians even less so, and I'm not sure if other races do at all. Also, troll/elf/naga/merfolk gifts could be extremely powerful in the early game. Overall, I think making Beogh always apply to your own race seems like a pretty big project and not a quick little "why not?" addition.

That said, it would be fun, and if nothing else I wouldn't mind it still being orcs but just any race being able to worship him. If there's a concern about it removing uniqueness, I might be less concerned with making Hill Orcs less unique and more concerned with the overlap between Beogh and Yred. I feel like flavor and the fact that Beogh is limited to orcs are some of the big things distinguishing the two of them.

[Sar]

IMO just add more cool orc monsters with Depths-level power, spawn 0-3 of them in Orc as a boss (like warlords used to be in old Orc), spawn bands of them in Depths, let your orcs turn into them too.

maybe reflavor juggernauts as really buff orc dudes or something

[HardboiledGargoyle]

A Beogh that accepts non-orc worshippers is not any more strange than a Yred that accepts non-undead worshippers, a Jiyva that accepts non-slime worshippers, or a Fedhas that accepts non-plant worshippers.

[dpeg]

Sorry to spray water, but this won't happen. Beogh is, and will continue to be, the orc god.
When Beogh got added, there was some discussion whether other species should also be allowed to worship the deity (specifically ogres and trolls were mentioned).

[Croases]

Out of curiosity, what was the reason given?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

and please mention whether you're talking about simply letting non-HO PCs join, or johlstei's "god of racial purity" conceit

[archaeo]

DPEG used WATER SPRAY. It's super effective! BEOGH THREAD fainted to CYC.

Feel free to continue brainstorming the racial purity god, though I'm not super sure "DCSS: the game with a racial purity god" is really an image we want to present to the world.

[dynast]

Ok, just make every species in the game half orc and there we go.

[stoneychips]

It could be a rare mutation: "Orkness." Change official species to Hill Orc for purposes of deity selection only. All other stats and abilities remain the same.

... Sits back with popcorn and watches the marathon quaffing of Mutation potions begin.

PS They are listed as "species," not races at all. Or does Beogh not think that way?

[duvessa]

Out of curiosity, what was the reason given?

flavour, same as the reason beogh is allowed to exist at all

[all before]

yknow, not sure that a dev disagreeing is a good enough reason to send a post to CYC. though to be fair, there's not really much else to say on the issue beyond what's been said.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

a dev disagreeing

dpeg didn't necessarily disagree - he just said it won't happen and that this was settled a long time ago, but circle-LOS > square-LOS was also settled a few versions ago, and look where we are now.

[archaeo]

all before, any of the other mods can feel free to reverse my decision, and everybody's welcome as always to PM me if they think I'm being a bonehead (though it would be helpful if you could be constructive about criticizing my boneheadedness).

But yeah, while I think Beogh's specific mechanics are always up for discussion, dpeg has been pretty clear for a long time that Beogh is for Orcs. I like how dpeg used almost exactly the same phrase in 2011.

Here's a bonus post where minmay suggests "an invocation that turns nearby water to wine," and one more where dpeg discusses the history of Beogh.

[WingedEspeon]

I looked at dpeg's comments and they seemed to say that there would be no more racial gods other than Beogh. I persaly agree the Beogh should stay the orc god. However, I do think that opening up Beogh to worship by non-orcs might not be a bad idea. The non orcs would have followers who are decidedly orcish.

[duvessa]

all before, any of the other mods can feel free to reverse my decision, and everybody's welcome as always to PM me if they think I'm being a bonehead (though it would be helpful if you could be constructive about criticizing my boneheadedness).

But yeah, while I think Beogh's specific mechanics are always up for discussion, dpeg has been pretty clear for a long time that Beogh is for Orcs. I like how dpeg used almost exactly the same phrase in 2011.

Here's a bonus post where minmay suggests "an invocation that turns nearby water to wine," and one more where dpeg discusses the history of Beogh.

oh man, I forgot about that thread:
- "When assaulting Zot it is HIGHLY recommended to have these resistances: rF+++ rN+++ rE+"
- I blatantly insult water walking, and dpeg (and archaeo???) interprets it as a serious suggestion somehow
- galehar says you can't cast haste in heavy armour

[archaeo]

I blatantly insult water walking, and dpeg (and archaeo???) interprets it as a serious suggestion somehow

I figured you were joking, but I mean I've seen your vaults, maybe you just didn't have your sharp sense of game design back in the halcyon days of 2011?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

dpeg specifically notes liking the idea of an outsider species being accepted as a Messiah. How on earth would one even know that Crawl's orcs are Cave Orcs, not Hill Orcs? You cannot expect the player to logically deduce that Hill Orcs naturally live out in the open in hilly regions and thus are different from "subterranean" orcs in the mines, when the game has merfolk that live on multi-story sandy beaches under a jungle which is under a dungeon. It even takes a keen eye to notice that the dungeon has no trace of high elves. And going on to say that letting non-orcs worship Beogh takes away from the (unique for any species) distinctiveness of orcs is like saying "it is so interesting if a Chinese society accepts a Japanese leader, that we must enforce that, but we definitely won't allow non-Japanese (Europeans etc.) to become leaders of Chinese people, since that would take away from the uniqueness of Japanese."

[Tiktacy]

dpeg specifically notes liking the idea of an outsider species being accepted as a Messiah. How on earth would one even know that Crawl's orcs are Cave Orcs, not Hill Orcs? You cannot expect the player to logically deduce that Hill Orcs naturally live out in the open in hilly regions and thus are different from "subterranean" orcs in the mines, when the game has merfolk that live on multi-story sandy beaches under a jungle which is under a dungeon. It even takes a keen eye to notice that the dungeon has no trace of high elves. And going on to say that letting non-orcs worship Beogh takes away from the (unique for any species) distinctiveness of orcs is like saying "it is so interesting if a Chinese society accepts a Japanese leader, that we must enforce that, but we definitely won't allow non-Japanese (Europeans etc.) to become leaders of Chinese people, since that would take away from the uniqueness of Japanese."

Where did you come from and why does every post you make me feel the need to thank you some how?

You are intimidatingly dead on with just about everything you post about.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

You can use the Thank function.

[beogh]

I do not like the idea of non-orcs becoming the orc messiah;

However, I support the idea of giving the orcs another progression past warlords. Right now, warlords are not that special (I can have 2-3 of them before d10) and they are pretty useless in extended. Even Roka is generally pretty useless by the time you can recruit him.

[archaeo]

Honestly, I think if we want a permanent ally god that's viable in extended, we need a new god altogether. It's hard for me to imagine a new tier of orcs that would really have more survivability in extended without being outright better than the PC, much less a way to set them up so that you're not rolling with endgame orcs by Vaults:1. It's also a pain to manage a horde across all 50+ levels of extended; hanon's ridiculous Beogh speedrun was only possible with old!Beogh equipment management, but I think it's pretty obvious now that the devs aren't hugely into army micromanagement.

A good 15 rune ally god might involve some kind of golem master god; I like the idea of having a single pet that you feed artifacts or drain evocables into to give it resists and attacks, and a bit of micromanagement might be acceptable with a single ally instead of an army.

[dpeg]

archeo: Yes to all. I don't think that all-runing is a desideratum for gods, but from what I've heard, there are ideas for a single-ally god, which sounds interesting to me.

HbG: ?1

[duvessa]

HbG: ?1

Except ?1 doesn't actually specify that the orcs in the Dungeon are cave orcs.

[Croases]

So, what about the part where a reasonable explanation for not letting non-orcs worship Beogh is provided? I mean, even if you know dungeon orcs and player orcs are different, we have precedent for non-orc Beogh worship in flavor text (Mennas) and cave orcs being led by a human isn't any worse a foreign prophet analogue than cave orcs being led by a hill orc.

And even if everyone agreed that Beogh should be for orcs (which they don't), making the god available to all makes for a better gameplay experience (more replayability, you currently have to go HO if you want to worship Beogh, taking him with other races (especially Nagas and other bad earlygame races) may have interesting consequences) and I think the idea around this parts is that gameplay trumps flavor by default.

[Sar]

what about the part where a reasonable explanation for not letting non-orcs worship Beogh is provided

the part where people told you that literally the only reason for Beogh to exist is flavour and Beogh flavour is being a god of orcs who hates filthy subhuman non-orc races

mechanics-wise Beogh isn't very unique apart from being orc god, if you want to worship Beogh as a non-orc just worship Yred instead

tl;dr: chop the elves, race war now

[Croases]

the part where people told you that literally the only reason for Beogh to exist is flavour and Beogh flavour is being a god of orcs who hates filthy subhuman non-orc races

mechanics-wise Beogh isn't very unique apart from being orc god, if you want to worship Beogh as a non-orc just worship Yred instead

So why is Beogh kept in the game? If flavor is really the sole reason for Beogh to exist, just remove the god entirely.

He's popular, yeah, but so were Mountain Dwarves and mighthaste Okawaru. I'd even argue that Beogh has far more problems than these two because he's a long-term, non-disposable ally god and despite noble efforts to reduce follower-associated tedium, that concept doesn't really work out in Crawl.

[archaeo]

So why is Beogh kept in the game? If flavor is really the sole reason for Beogh to exist, just remove the god entirely.

He's popular, yeah, but so were Mountain Dwarves and mighthaste Okawaru. I'd even argue that Beogh has far more problems than these two because he's a long-term, non-disposable ally god and despite noble efforts to reduce follower-associated tedium, that concept doesn't really work out in Crawl.

Beogh really does have some of the most well-developed flavor in the game. The only difference between the old Oka and the new one is where the bonuses come from, whereas MD really didn't have developed flavor and wasn't interestingly different from its competitors in mechanical terms. Beogh comes with a built-in narrative arc, complete with a cast of named allies that grow and change. That's not nothing, and should be reinforced instead of stripped away.

Which is to say that even if flavor is the main argument for keeping Beogh, it's cool flavor, and rather than gutting it and making Beogh all but indistinguishable from Yred by opening Beogh to worship from all species, it'd be better to find a way to maintain that flavor while finding fun and cool ways to make Beogh a fun and cool god to worship.

[dpeg]

?1:

  Code:

Hill Orcs
  Hill Orcs are Orcs from the upper world who, jealaous of the riches which
  their cousins (the Cave Orcs) possess below the ground, descend in search
  of plunder and adventure.

Sounds pretty clearcut to me. CYC: reading comprehension 0/20

MD were just a collection of numbers, and considered (by us) to be under-distinguished among similar species.

Beogh is a god with a well-defined niche. You can complain about Beogh all you want, but comparing MD and Beogh is a complete fail on your part.

Both MD and Beogh were/are very popular. But Beogh is popular because of some unique features. MD fere popular for other, lesser reasons (in other words, for reasons not at all Crawl-specific). I know forum readers well enough by now to repeat that in a different way: Beogh has both unique flavour and unique gameplay, hence is popular among many players. The causality goes: flavour & gameplay ==> popularity. Flavour and gameplay are the reason to keep Beogh, not popularity. The latter is a consequence of the former.

I don't think that drastic changes to Beogh are necessary, and this thread is certainly not a reason to repent and turn back. I do hope that Beogh will see minor improvements, as has happened over the years.

[duvessa]

Beogh does not have unique gameplay. You can get the same gameplay by worshipping Yred or using one of the many spells, cards, and items that make allies. Well, and by wearing boots of flight and learning Airstrike, I guess.

[Croases]

comparing MD and Beogh is a complete fail on your part.

No it isn't.

If flavor is really the sole reason for Beogh to exist, just remove the god entirely.

Beogh doesn't have a niche and is just a collection of abilities you get from other gods/items, is what I'm saying.

Now, this was my reaction to being told that flavor is the only reason that Beogh exists, but you don't seem share that sentiment. In that case, here's my reply:

So, what about the part where a reasonable explanation for not letting non-orcs worship Beogh is provided? I mean, even if you know dungeon orcs and player orcs are different, we have precedent for non-orc Beogh worship in flavor text (Mennas) and cave orcs being led by a human isn't any worse a foreign prophet analogue than cave orcs being led by a hill orc.

And even if everyone agreed that Beogh should be for orcs (which they don't), making the god available to all makes for a better gameplay experience (more replayability, you currently have to go HO if you want to worship Beogh, taking him with other races (especially Nagas and other bad earlygame races) may have interesting consequences) and I think the idea around this parts is that gameplay trumps flavor by default.

To wit: What aspect of Beogh's flavor or gameplay would be diminished if non-orcs were allowed to worship the god? It seems to me that the flavor would still be consistent (see: Mennas) and the gameplay would be better (see: replayability).

[HardboiledGargoyle]

mechanics-wise Beogh isn't very unique apart from being orc god, if you want to worship Beogh as a non-orc just worship Yred instead

That's no better than saying "if you want to worship Beogh as an orc just worship Yred instead" so you haven't made a clear point there.

?1:

  Code:

Hill Orcs
  Hill Orcs are Orcs from the upper world who, jealaous of the riches which
  their cousins (the Cave Orcs) possess below the ground, descend in search
  of plunder and adventure.

Sounds pretty clearcut to me. CYC: reading comprehension 0/20

Sorry for not reading all of Crawl's flavor text like a normal player! It can easily be that the orcs you find in the dungeon are the very "Orcs from the upper world who, jealous of the riches ... below the ground, descend in search of plunder and adventure" just like Donald. Maybe the cave orcs are extinct like faerie dragons, or maybe the hill orcs started mining into the wrong dungeon and found elves instead of cave orcs. And cousin doesn't necessarily imply separate species or even race. We wait with folded hands for dpeg to shine light on our inferiority and how we missed a comment in the source or something. Anyway criticizing our reading comprehension when the game has dreadful cobs of maize is silly.

I do hope that Beogh will see minor improvements, as has happened over the years.

Why isn't OP's recommendation one of the minor improvements you hope Beogh will see?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I'd like to suggest an intermediate change, a preliminary step before you "Enable Beogh to everyone": rename hill orcs to mountain dwarves.

[tasonir]

I guess most people didn't dive into the threads that archeo linked above; here's a great dpeg quote (from the last link):

That said, if Beogh's audience has to be widened (I am sure it has to), I'd follow minmay's proposal: anyone can follow Beogh, and under his guidance, you become better and better until at ****** you're a proper orc.

Not sure what "proper orc" means - I'd probably change the doll and your race name, but leave your stats alone. Maybe we recalculate everything as if you were an orc all along, but in any case, he said "I AM SURE IT HAS TO [allow more, and probably all, races to worship Beogh]". ALL RACES BEOGH FOR .18!

Ok, it was a typo, he meant "not sure" but that means there is still a chance! A CHANCE!

Post not entirely serious, although I wouldn't mind all races beogh, honestly.

[duvessa]

man, I love annoying dpeg, don't get me wrong, but it's pretty fuckin bullshit that you've decided he's not allowed to change his mind