Buff Chei

[sanka]

REMARK: I start this proposal here instead of GDD because it contains "Chei", so most likely it will degenerate into a flame war. If anything useful comes out, which is highly unlikely, a mod still could move it there.

I propose two buffs to Chei, and I hope that with these changes she would be about as strong as some other gods.

1. When after the player's movement a monster comes into LOS, that monster "looses all it's energy", by which I mean that the player can act first. Monsters may gain a short immunity to this after it happens.
2. Allow haste. Instead block any effect that would make movement speed faster, so under haste every action would be faster except movment. (I would also allow quick blades or speed weapons. Training weapon skill is allowed after all.) So instead of disallowing a bunch of things, chei sets your "minimum" move delay, you cannot move faster than that.

[radinms]

Crazy.

Chei is one of the most powerful god.

Buff is not needed.
Nerf or Remove is needed because Chei destroys game balance completely.

I suggest return book of wizardry.
Now getting haste of spell is hard due to no book of wizardry.
That's why Chei is one true god in current DCSS.

[onget]

Since chei does nothing in pre-temple, the chei of pre-temple would need buff.

[radinms]

All god except Xom, Lugonu,Trog do nothing in pre-temple!

[ZipZipskins]

Sometimes you see the title of a thread and you're like, "hot shit, entertainment!"

[dynast]

From the point of view of a design concept i can understand why you would want these buffes since they suddenly turn chei into a good god, but from my player perspective i cant help but notice you want issues that you "doesnt know how to deal with" removed.

Monsters entering your LoS and taking actions before you can do anything are solved by good positioning and can be nullified by shouting instead of walking since chei only slows your movement, which brings me to the haste issue... why do you need it? other than to blink into a enemie's face and punch it before THEY can do anything?

[tabstorm]

I sort of like the first one but he shouldn't allow haste. The first thing you listed would stop you from randomly dying due to autoexploring around a corner, which can happen with Chei at times.

[sanka]

From the point of view of a design concept i can understand why you would want these buffes since they suddenly turn chei into a good god, but from my player perspective i cant help but notice you want issues that you "doesnt know how to deal with" removed.

I made the post from the point of view of a design concept, not to have something removed I do not know how to deal with.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

shouting is a horrible mechanic

[dynast]

This topic is a shy "remove the things that makes chei bad".

Maybe is just me that cant see chei being good since he encourages hybrid playstyle with ease in combat and spell learning, which is pretty much what ash does, but then goes in the opposite way to put the player in danger, while ash guides the player to avoid it.

[sanka]

This topic is a shy "remove the things that makes chei bad".

What makes it shy? I said in the title that I want to buff chei, yes.

[dynast]

1. When after the player's movement a monster comes into LOS, that monster "looses all it's energy", by which I mean that the player can act first.

Should instead be "remove slow movement because monsters can act more than the player otherwise" since its all slow movement does, you can still blink and tele, or use chei abilities to escape combat, and those actions are executed on normal speed so by making "enemies not attack when they first sees you" you eliminate the major aspect of being slowed by chei.

2. Allow haste. Instead block any effect that would make movement speed faster, so under haste every action would be faster except movment. (I would also allow quick blades or speed weapons. Training weapon skill is allowed after all.) So instead of disallowing a bunch of things, chei sets your "minimum" move delay, you cannot move faster than that.

Should instead be "allow haste period" You pretend people use haste for moving to elaborate a justification but people dont use haste for moving, not even when carrying the orb.

[duvessa]

1. When after the player's movement a monster comes into LOS, that monster "looses all it's energy", by which I mean that the player can act first.

Should instead be "remove slow movement because monsters can act more than the player otherwise" since its all slow movement does, you can still blink and tele, or use chei abilities to escape combat, and those actions are executed on normal speed so by making "enemies not attack when they first sees you" you eliminate the major aspect of being slowed by chei.

2. Allow haste. Instead block any effect that would make movement speed faster, so under haste every action would be faster except movment. (I would also allow quick blades or speed weapons. Training weapon skill is allowed after all.) So instead of disallowing a bunch of things, chei sets your "minimum" move delay, you cannot move faster than that.

Should instead be "allow haste period" You pretend people use haste for moving to elaborate a justification but people dont use haste for moving, not even when carrying the orb.

well this is certainly a tavern post

[dynast]

well this is certainly a tavern post

Just dont play chei if dont like being slowed OK!? gosh...

[Sandman25]

well this is certainly a tavern post

Just dont play chei if dont like being slowed OK!? gosh...

I believe he meant this: "people dont use haste for moving, not even when carrying the orb.".

[duvessa]

"by making "enemies not attack when they first sees you" you eliminate the major aspect of being slowed by chei" and "people dont use haste for moving" are equally absurd statements to make

the major aspect of slow movement is that it makes your repositioning suck and it makes your walking away suck, and walking away is normally way better than teleport or uncontrolled blink

if chei is supposed to be the god of making your movement suck and also reducing your damage, then blocking haste makes sense, if he is supposed to just be the god of making your movement suck then blocking haste doesn't really make sense (chei movement with haste is still very bad movement). but he also gets mad at 0 skill speed glaives, but doesn't mind 10 skill daggers, so i'm pretty sure he's actually the god of having blatantly inconsistent conducts in the name of keeping the awesome flavour of "hating stuff that has 'speed' or 'fast' in the name"

and really if you let chei characters haste, you could just nerf bend time and i'm pretty sure he wouldn't become overpowered, just no longer a god of "your character is about as good as one that took any other god, except you cant move"

[Arrhythmia]

i didn't read this thread but any motherfucker dumb enough to say chei is bad is wrong, but fuck it let's buff him anyways

[dynast]

the major aspect of slow movement is that it makes your repositioning suck and it makes your walking away suck, and walking away is normally way better than teleport or uncontrolled blink

Repositioning with chei? now thats a equally absurd statement. Are we just gonna pretend players play pure melee and that chei doesnt have a ton of abilities?

[Sandman25]

Well, pure melee is ok with Chei too, you just need to be more patient.

[dynast]

Well, pure melee is ok with Chei too, you just need to be more patient.

In those cases you dont need haste and you deserve to get double shattered by pan lords entering your LoS.

The case where you dont play a pure melee chei is what i like to call "pretend chei", since you usually dont move during fights and spend your actions blasting foes from afar, channeling, summoning, etc, or when you learn cblink.

[Sandman25]

Well, pure melee is ok with Chei too, you just need to be more patient.

In those cases you dont need haste and you deserve to get double shattered by pan lords entering your LoS.

The case where you dont play a pure melee chei is what i like to call "pretend chei", since you usually dont move during fights and spend your actions blasting foes from afar, channeling, summoning, etc, or when you learn cblink.

Notice that I was not saying pure melee all game. Something like this

  Code:

Cast: Blink             |       |       |       |     2 |    18 |     9 |    17 |    13 |    92 ||   151
       Apportation       |       |       |       |     3 |     3 |     8 |     1 |     5 |    34 ||    54
       Magic Dart        |       |       |       |       |   219 |   121 |    23 |    14 |     1 ||   378
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |       |       |   239 |   259 |   216 |   125 |   143 ||   982
       Searing Ray       |       |       |       |       |    13 |       |       |       |       ||    13
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |       |     3 |     3 |     2 |       |       ||     8
       Iskenderun's Batt |       |       |       |       |     2 |    35 |    27 |    16 |     1 ||    81
       Static Discharge  |       |       |       |       |       |     7 |       |       |       ||     7
       Silence           |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |    37 |    13 |    56 ||   110
       Deflect Missiles  |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     4 |     2 |    20 ||    28
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    12 |   227 ||   239
       Shroud of Golubri |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     7 ||     8
       Spectral Weapon   |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |    78 ||    79
       Animate Skeleton  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   211 ||   211
       Recall            |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    17 ||    17
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    90 ||    90
       Dazzling Spray    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
       Phase Shift       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   146 ||   146
       Tornado           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   137 ||   137
       Animate Dead      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    35 ||    35
       Summon Butterflie |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    31 ||    31
       Bolt of Draining  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    13 ||    13


Pure melee before XL 13 and then 1% Tornado in Shadow DA.
Also I move during all fights a lot, Chei does not stop luring (unfortunately).

[bel]

I like the first proposal. Autoexplore with Chei would be much nicer then.

Allowing haste is too much.

[Sprucery]

FR: Make Chei not hate weapons of speed as such. Make Chei hate attacking faster than 1.0 with any weapon (or UC).

[dynast]

You mean "NOT pure melee" then? Also i guess you move around a lot during fights if you have tornado.

[Sandman25]

You mean "NOT pure melee" then? Also i guess you move around a lot during fights if you have tornado.

No, I move around all the time, I retreat 4 tiles with Chei when I see normal speed monster at the edge of LoS

[bcadren]

I agree with one, kinda. mostly think something needs to be done about auto-explore deaths...not necessarily a BUFF buff; just removing that.

[Zooty]

the awesome flavour of "hating stuff that has 'speed' or 'fast' in the name"

Dude bought some bad amphetamine once, ok?

[wheals]

I understand that different people can mean different things by "pure melee" but referring to a game with 137 casts of Tornado as that just seems disingenuous.

[Sandman25]

I understand that different people can mean different things by "pure melee" but referring to a game with 137 casts of Tornado as that just seems disingenuous.

The character was pure melee before XL 13 (this stage is the most important one, right?). If you want a more "pure melee" of Chei, you can take a look at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9463&p=130332

Edit. But seriously it is stupid to play like berserker when you have +15 int/str. Even in 3 rune game you will run out of things to train so it will be optimal to get blink/RMsl/Regen etc. And those Tornadoes were in 15 rune game with a species who has intrinsic teleportititis. Che + teleportitis and no spells before XL 13, IMHO it proves pure melee Chei is viable.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 015322.txt

[Sandman25]

Other examples: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/CheiMu/morg ... 142644.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/CheiMu/morg ... 002207.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/CheiMu/morg ... 032643.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/CheiMu/morg ... 181216.txt

[wheals]

Was there argument about "possible"? I thought the question was whether it was a good idea, which you admit it is not.

[Sandman25]

Was there argument about "possible"? I thought the question was whether it was a good idea, which you admit it is not.

My understanding of "Are we just gonna pretend players play pure melee and that chei doesnt have a ton of abilities?" was that Chei basically requires spamming abilities if you are playing pure melee. My reply was that pure melee with Chei is ok too, those defenses allow you to tank incoming damage (tasonir, please help )

[radinms]

it is a general misconception:
Chei forces you hybrid style - force you magic.

it is ok:
Chei encourages you hybrid style - Chei helps you a lot.

it is also ok:
pure melee(+low level support magic) of Chei is still strong.
pure melee(no magic) of Chei is still strong.

it is right:
pure magic of Chei is very difficult.
but anyway pure magic char is difficult whether or not you use Chei.

Chei allows you almost everything -- except normal or haste speed movement, and haste action.
That's why I feel Chei is easy.
Yes, "take it easy" is right. because Chei destroys game balance completely!

[bel]

I don't know what "pure melee" means, but most of my Chei characters are basically melee, with a few support spells. I rarely use conjurations to kill things, if that's what you mean. The main difference in playstyle between Chei and say, Okawaru, is that I can wear heavy armour and can still cast the support spells easily.

[dynast]

As wheals said i never questioned the viability of pure melee chei so idk whats up with the pure melee scenario derailment thats going on here.

Are we just gonna pretend players play pure melee AND that chei doesnt have a ton of abilities?

Notice the "and"?

As you said yourself sandman and i agreed to that you can play and win a pure melee chei without any problem, though if you have a problem the problem is yours and not chei's, so people who think chei needs a buff should switch to ash or just learn how to play chei, or just stop being shy and say "why cant i o tab o tab with chei???".

I don't know what "pure melee" means

Means your source of damage is entirely melee(except for slouch, of course).

[Sandman25]

Ok, sorry about derailing.

[bcadren]

Chei allows you almost everything -- except normal or haste speed movement, and haste action.
That's why I feel Chei is easy.
Yes, "take it easy" is right. because Chei destroys game balance completely!

Chei doesn't help with Evocations or needles, though I don't think. I think the key statement for Chei though is. "Train dodging first."

[sanka]

I kind of expected this level of talk, that is why I posted it here. I understand that Chei is judged very differently by people, tough some anger still suprises me sometimes about it.

I still think there are people who, like me think that Chei is weaker than every other god, maybe except Xom. I would be curious about their opinion if 1.) the game would be better if Chei were not a challenge god but roughly about on par with others, and 2) my buffs would be enough to accomplish it.

[dynast]

Except people pick chei for speerunning so he is not weak or a challenge god.

[bel]

Except people pick chei for speerunning so he is not weak or a challenge god.

If you think Chei is not weak, you don't have to answer. That was condition in the if statement.

Not to mention people do all kinds of things in speedruns which would be bad in a normal game.

[dynast]

Sorry but by definition "weak" and "challenge" are not the attributes people look for when picking a god for a speedrun, no matter how suboptimal the speedrunning playstyle is.

[Sandman25]

I still think there are people who, like me think that Chei is weaker than every other god, maybe except Xom. I would be curious about their opinion if 1.) the game would be better if Chei were not a challenge god but roughly about on par with others, and 2) my buffs would be enough to accomplish it.

1) No. The game does not have difficulty levels except species, backgrounds and GODS.
2) Yes. Levels 6 spells are easy to cast with Chei and why would you want to retreat when you have excellent offense/defense/panic buttons.

[archaeo]

fwiw sanka, either a) a modest investment in stealth or b) having good defenses is usually a decent way of avoiding death-by-autoexplore with Chei. If you can't get either, it's better to just manually explore with care.

Chei doesn't need nerfed or buffed; like basically every Crawl god, you only get advantages in exchange for drawbacks. Some Crawl gods, like Makh, Sif, or Oka, give you pretty modest benefits for modest drawbacks. Others, like Chei, Qaz, or Ru, have very strong abilities with equally serious drawbacks. That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

[tasonir]

I've always preferred melee characters of chei, because melee characters in general are more fun to play. Chei of course means you'll want to branch out into magic later on, but I start as melee and add magic support later, while continuing to melee. See basically any chei character on my stat page: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html. I think I might have done a caster once, and I have done an EE start which branches into statue form and melee once I find statue form, which is a slightly easier way to start fragile races like octopodes. But they're generally all melee

As for the original suggestion, the core concept of chei is dealing with the drawback, through all of the absurd power chei gives you. Weakening the drawback destroys the concept of chei, and you'd have to weaken all the benefits to balance it. Chei isn't weak overall, although there is a period right at the start of worship which is definitely bad. If you wanted to buff chei, some solution to "turn 1-2000 of chei worship sucks" which doesn't change much of chei's late game would be the best way, but I'm not sure there's a good way to do that.

[Rast]

Chei isn't weak overall, although there is a period right at the start of worship which is definitely bad. If you wanted to buff chei, some solution to "turn 1-2000 of chei worship sucks" which doesn't change much of chei's late game would be the best way, but I'm not sure there's a good way to do that.

Although I have zero interest in playing Chei, I suggest accelerating the stat boost.

Currently it is, I think, something like piety/13; if it were instead 5+piety/20, there would be a significant immediate reward for joining Chei, while keeping the max boost at +15.

[Sprucery]

Sorry but by definition "weak" and "challenge" are not the attributes people look for when picking a god for a speedrun, no matter how suboptimal the speedrunning playstyle is.

But aren't speedrunners willing to take huge risks in order to spend as little turns as possible? They maybe don't care if 9 (or 90) characters die if one makes it? Early game is the hardest game and Chei is hard in the early game imho. So even though Chei is good for speedrunning, it may still be hard generally. Is Chei good for streaking?

(I'm the opposite of a speedrunner myself and also suck with Chei...)

[dynast]

What kind of leap to conclusion are you trying to make here Sprucery? Maybe detrimental is the word you are looking for to describe chei. Bad? yes, chei is a bad god, but not weak, or challenging. You want examples of weak gods? Fedhas, trog, oka, sif.(my biased opinion) Challenging gods? xom, qaz.

[mps]

fwiw sanka, either a) a modest investment in stealth or b) having good defenses is usually a decent way of avoiding death-by-autoexplore with Chei. If you can't get either, it's better to just manually explore with care.

Chei doesn't need nerfed or buffed; like basically every Crawl god, you only get advantages in exchange for drawbacks. Some Crawl gods, like Makh, Sif, or Oka, give you pretty modest benefits for modest drawbacks. Others, like Chei, Qaz, or Ru, have very strong abilities with equally serious drawbacks. That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

Most gods don't have any real drawback other than opportunity cost. The ones that have real downsides are correctly regarded as inferior for general use, imo. Using Chei in speedruns makes sense, as people have said, because the risk is concentrated in the early game (which is what makes Chei bad for general play) and a certain kind of soft startscumming is an unavoidable part of speedrunning anyway.

[radinms]

Trog, Okawaru, Xom... all are strong god!

especially, trog or Xom, you can worship them at D1!

I don't understand why you say they are weak god.
They are all strong god, they are useful at D1-Pan-Hell!

[tabstorm]

fwiw sanka, either a) a modest investment in stealth or b) having good defenses is usually a decent way of avoiding death-by-autoexplore with Chei. If you can't get either, it's better to just manually explore with care.

Chei doesn't need nerfed or buffed; like basically every Crawl god, you only get advantages in exchange for drawbacks. Some Crawl gods, like Makh, Sif, or Oka, give you pretty modest benefits for modest drawbacks. Others, like Chei, Qaz, or Ru, have very strong abilities with equally serious drawbacks. That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

Trog has no drawbacks. Most people look at his no-magic conduct as a drawback, but I see it as preventing you from unnecessarily weakening your character.