Questioning Changes


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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 03:53

Questioning Changes

I decided to try playing trunk even after I said I wouldn't because of !restab removal. I needed to quaff-id on D:2 during melee with an adder (really, just standing there since no hits at all were landing :evil: ), and of course one of the four potions thus found was !mut. That was how I found out that the 'teleportitis' mutation was revised to blink you right next to monsters. As if blinkitis wasn't threatening enough where no !curemut was available, it now seems that being given a random mutation should be almost guaranteed to kill you. It's just wrong.

Why are you doing this?

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:08

Re: Questioning Changes

lol

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:11

Re: Questioning Changes

My main complaint with that change is that it encourages annoying behavior. With old teleportitis 1, I would usually just rest normally because it never tele'd you that far or that often. Now, I'll go upstairs to rest as often as I can be bothered, because it's become significantly more dangerous, and the majority of the times it actually comes into effect are while resting so it becomes a huge advantage to go upstairs every time you need to rest.

I believe there was some sort of interim where teleportitis 1 would only blink you to enemies while they were in sight, though I could be wrong, but regardless that's what it should do because right now it makes me do annoying things to avoid its effects. Higher levels of teleportitis, or at least teleportitis 3, should work as it does now.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:16

Re: Questioning Changes

it was already a huge advantage to go upstairs every time though

the mutation basically didn't change

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:20

Re: Questioning Changes

It was already a huge advantage to go upstairs normally, and a further advantage to go upstairs if you had teleportitis. The difference is now that if you're e.g. doing Zot:5/Elf:2-3/S:5 you absolutely must go upstairs to rest every time or face a fight you have to teleport away from. It's a significant change.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:36

Re: Questioning Changes

duvessa wrote:the mutation basically didn't change

Previously: randomly teleported nearby.
Now: deliberately teleported adjacent to visible enemies.

That, dear duvessa, is in fact change, so saying it "basically [did not] change" is just an unhelpful lie.

It is indeed a significant change, and one that can easily result in death. Imagine an OoF blasting you with this on an orb run. How fun and exciting to be tele'd adjacent to a Pan lord or more at the most inopportune moment after you'd done everything "by the book" to avoid senseless death and are on your way to winning.

Really, what is the point of this?
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 04:46

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:
duvessa wrote:the mutation basically didn't change

Previously: randomly teleported nearby.
Now: deliberately teleported adjacent to visible enemies.

That, dear duvessa, is in fact change, so saying it "basically [did not] change" is just an unhelpful lie.

It is indeed a significant change, and one that can easily result in death. Imagine an OoF blasting you with this on an orb run. How fun and exciting to be tele'd adjacent to a Pan lord or more at the most inopportune moment after you'd done everything "by the book" to avoid senseless death and are on your way to winning.

Really, what is the point of this?


The way it works now is: it randomly chooses a spot on the level. If there is a monster within LOS of that spot, it teleports you. Otherwise, it does nothing. However, the range restriction was removed, and the mutation was made to trigger about 33% more often (still half as often as the ring).

Edit: it would perhaps be more comforting to old players, and make the effect clearer, if we printed a message whenever teleportitis could have teleported you but did not. But the message spam would probably not be popular.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 05:11

Re: Questioning Changes

Well, thank you, Neil, for the clear explanation of what it does, but you did not answer the questions of why or what is the point.

This has turned a single rank mutation into something truly evil and dangerous, and needs to go. Seriously, this is just crazy.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 05:39

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:Well, thank you, Neil, for the clear explanation of what it does, but you did not answer the questions of why or what is the point.

This has turned a single rank mutation into something truly evil and dangerous, and needs to go. Seriously, this is just crazy.


The main point of the change was to make random teleport less annoying by having it actually do nothing when previously it would have put you in a non-dangerous situation.

I can't speak for MarvinPA, but I imagine that the range restriction on the mutation (first added in 0.12) was removed because otherwise it would rarely teleport you under the new system (since the area near the player is likely to be clear of monsters). The 33% increase in frequency was maybe based on an estimate of monster density from earlier in the game than Zot?

Edit: correct link
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 06:24

Re: Questioning Changes

neil wrote:
Aule wrote:The 33% increase in frequency was maybe based on an estimate of monster density from earlier in the game than Zot?


That's a big problem though, it suddenly becomes a big problem on levels with high monster density which means it's deadly on already tough levels while relatively mild on easy ones, and more importantly incredibly spoilery.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 07:17

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:This has turned a single rank mutation into something truly evil and dangerous, and needs to go.
it's not dangerous though
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 09:21

Re: Questioning Changes

neil wrote:The main point of the change was to make random teleport less annoying by having it actually do nothing when previously it would have put you in a non-dangerous situation.

(The link in neil's post (the change) points to a wrong commit btw.)

So if I got it right the differences compared to the old system are:
1) it it previously would have teleported you to a safe spot, you now remain in place instead
2) it triggers 33% more often
3) there's no range restriction for the teleport

It would be interesting to get some statistics on how often you will be teleported on a 'typical' level.

What is the estimate of monster density for D levels, for example?
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 12:50

Re: Questioning Changes

duvessa wrote:
Aule wrote:This has turned a single rank mutation into something truly evil and dangerous, and needs to go.
it's not dangerous though

I'd appreciate an explanation.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 13:34

Re: Questioning Changes

Sprucery wrote:(The link in neil's post (the change) points to a wrong commit btw.)



Oops, fixed. Should be https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db80c5092

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 14:25

Re: Questioning Changes

So, are we nerfing adders or what?
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 15:02

Re: Questioning Changes

neil wrote:The main point of the change was to make random teleport less annoying by having it actually do nothing when previously it would have put you in a non-dangerous situation.


So the main point was to remove all the times when random teleport mutation would have taken you from danger to safety.

And then a 33% increase in the times it takes you from safety to danger.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 16:45

Re: Questioning Changes

The point of teleportitis was never to "take you from danger to safety". Pro Tip: there are consumables that actually allow you to do this though!

The increase was to help balance out the large portion of the time the mutation will have no effect. As neil said, it triggers half as often as a teleport ring, so still not very much, and many instances when it does trigger it will fail to find a monster and hence do nothing.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 17:14

Re: Questioning Changes

gammafunk wrote:The increase was to help balance out the large portion of the time the mutation will have no effect. As neil said, it triggers half as often as a teleport ring, so still not very much, and many instances when it does trigger it will fail to find a monster and hence do nothing.


Maybe it still should teleport to "no monsters" position if currently there are no monsters either and the new position is inside unexplored area.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 17:48

Re: Questioning Changes

gammafunk wrote:The point of teleportitis was never to "take you from danger to safety". Pro Tip: there are consumables that actually allow you to do this though!

The increase was to help balance out the large portion of the time the mutation will have no effect. As neil said, it triggers half as often as a teleport ring, so still not very much, and many instances when it does trigger it will fail to find a monster and hence do nothing.

Well, it did change it from a "Mostly neutral, but annoying and sometimes dangerous, but sometimes helpful" mutation (I would call old teleportitis nether strictly 'good' nor 'bad') to a strictly bad mutation which does change the balance of it, and mutations slightly. It'd be a bit like if antennae suddenly stopped detecting things, and suddenly just prevented you from wearing hats with no compensation. I always felt like teleportatitis's ability to get you into trouble was more than compensated for by it's ability to get you out of trouble.

Now it's always a bad thing, and rather than it being something I get to adjust my play style around or even take advantage of in certain situations, it's just another way my game could increase in difficulty that I should get rid of as soon as possible. That's more boring for me, personally, but then I never cared that it interrupted auto-travel either.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 18:00

Re: Questioning Changes

take it easy

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 18:33

Re: Questioning Changes

gammafunk wrote:The point of teleportitis was never to "take you from danger to safety".


It's my understanding that teleportitis has been in Crawl since the beginning, functioning just as it does in Nethack. So you're just wrong about this.

It's more accurate to say that the point of teleportitis was to sometimes dump the player from safety into danger, and sometimes wisk the player away from danger, and often annoy the player (because, back then, annoying the player was considered good game design).

I think we're all OK with removing that third effect. But let's not pretend that the second one didn't ever exist.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 18:39

Re: Questioning Changes

Siegurt wrote:Now it's always a bad thing, and rather than it being something I get to adjust my play style around or even take advantage of in certain situations, it's just another way my game could increase in difficulty that I should get rid of as soon as possible. That's more boring for me, personally, but then I never cared that it interrupted auto-travel either.

What sort of situations did you take advantage of it in?
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 18:40

Re: Questioning Changes

Odds wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Now it's always a bad thing, and rather than it being something I get to adjust my play style around or even take advantage of in certain situations, it's just another way my game could increase in difficulty that I should get rid of as soon as possible. That's more boring for me, personally, but then I never cared that it interrupted auto-travel either.

What sort of situations did you take advantage of it in?


Pillar dance until it kicks in.

Not saying that's good gameplay, but there ya go.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 19:19

Re: Questioning Changes

does teleportitis induced by items or randarts now behave this way also?

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 19:48

Re: Questioning Changes

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 20:04

Re: Questioning Changes

And I'd like to thank MarvinPA as well!

So that change has been reverted, and teleportitis is again available as a bad mutation. We'll look at tweaking the frequency of the mutation triggering (i.e. the 33% increase) and adjust, if need be.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 20:05

Re: Questioning Changes

The one thing I dislike about new Teleportitus is it removes the point of passively wearing a +/*Tele ring without evoking it. [More being pulled to new locations in Abyss, exploring new floors faster (looking for a timed portal)... randomly getting pulled away from a bad (pillardancing) situation, etc.]
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 20:41

Re: Questioning Changes

bcadren wrote:The one thing I dislike about new Teleportitus is it removes the point of passively wearing a +/*Tele ring without evoking it. [More being pulled to new locations in Abyss, exploring new floors faster (looking for a timed portal)... randomly getting pulled away from a bad (pillardancing) situation, etc.]

I assume that this was one reason for the change.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 21:28

Re: Questioning Changes

gammafunk wrote:And I'd like to thank MarvinPA as well!

So that change has been reverted, and teleportitis is again available as a bad mutation. We'll look at tweaking the frequency of the mutation triggering (i.e. the 33% increase) and adjust, if need be.

This is nuts. It's a single-rank mutation, and it's now dangerously detrimental. Who cares how "infrequent" you make it? All it needs to do is trigger upon entering a new level, and you'll see exactly how detrimentally dangerous it can be. No other single-rank mutation is of this caliber. I could understand this being an effect of two or three ranks of the mutation, but, seriously, this is not in line with anything previously done, here.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 21:32

Re: Questioning Changes

I don't like removal of the mutation. It was main reason to avoid mutation roulette. Now I will mutate myself in almost every game. Seriously, what mutation can kill my DEFE of Vehumet or anything of Ash?

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:20

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:
gammafunk wrote:And I'd like to thank MarvinPA as well!

So that change has been reverted, and teleportitis is again available as a bad mutation. We'll look at tweaking the frequency of the mutation triggering (i.e. the 33% increase) and adjust, if need be.

This is nuts. It's a single-rank mutation, and it's now dangerously detrimental. Who cares how "infrequent" you make it? All it needs to do is trigger upon entering a new level, and you'll see exactly how detrimentally dangerous it can be. No other single-rank mutation is of this caliber. I could understand this being an effect of two or three ranks of the mutation, but, seriously, this is not in line with anything previously done, here.

The bad effect of this mutation has got 33% more common. That is all. I really don't see how that can be described as "not in line with anything previously done". Teleportitis has always been deadly with bad luck and unexplored levels; that's just as true as it ever was.

---

I'm glad the boring bit of teleportitis has been removed - thanks!
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:25

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:This is nuts. It's a single-rank mutation, and it's now dangerously detrimental. Who cares how "infrequent" you make it? All it needs to do is trigger upon entering a new level, and you'll see exactly how detrimentally dangerous it can be. No other single-rank mutation is of this caliber.
I think the following mutations are worse at rank 1 (also all other ranks): deformed body, blurry vision, frail, subdued magic, no device heal.

And like, you could just stop quaffing mutation potions. From the changes over crawl's lifespan it's pretty clear that the prevailing attitude among the devteam is that it should be a bad idea to mutate. I don't think you're going to change that by posting this.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:42

Re: Questioning Changes

Odds wrote:The bad effect of this mutation has got 33% more common. That is all. I really don't see how that can be described as "not in line with anything previously done". Teleportitis has always been deadly with bad luck and unexplored levels; that's just as true as it ever was.

---

I'm glad the boring bit of teleportitis has been removed - thanks!


Actually the bad effect of the mutation was increased by more than 33%. Since the range restriction was removed, and a 'random teleport in sight of (or close to) your current location' was more often either boring or good (because you'd more often have explored the area closest to your current position, and certainly areas close to your current position are less likely to have unkilled creatures in them, the odds of getting a bad result when teleporting close by are skewed away from bad). And the good (and boring) effects of the mutation was reduced to 0, which is not the same as "only increasing the bad effects of the mutation by 33%" at all.

Current teleportitis:1 is worse than old teleportitis:3 IMHO (Even though the mutation will activate less often, you will see bad results more often) It *is* a lot less boring though.

Personally I'd suggest simply removing the boring cases, without removing the good or bad cases (So remove all cases where both the current *and* new locations have no monsters in them, possibly also remove all cases where the list of creatures in LOS don't change, although I kind of like those "randomly reposition you in LOS" teleports, I think they're fun and not boring at all) while retaining the 33% increase in frequency (to partially make up for the removed cases) and retaining the range restriction (or perhaps loosening it some without going all the way to unrestricted at mutation level 1)
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:48

Re: Questioning Changes

duvessa wrote:I think the following mutations are worse at rank 1 (also all other ranks): deformed body, blurry vision, frail, subdued magic, no device heal.

Deformed body places you at no immediate and random risk of potentially harsh consequences. Blurry vision means only that you have to think about scroll-reading earlier. Frail, wtf? 10% less HP is hardly dangerous by any stretch; you should be ashamed for even mentioning it. And no device heal is not a rank 1 mutation; reduced device heal is. Again, not dangerous. So whether or not you "think" these are "worse" than the new teleportitis, they are demonstrably far less potentially dangerous.

And like, you could just stop quaffing mutation potions. From the changes over crawl's lifespan it's pretty clear that the prevailing attitude among the devteam is that it should be a bad idea to mutate. I don't think you're going to change that by posting this.

Meaningless argument. Quaffing potions are the means of least concern for gaining unwanted mutations.

But thanks for at least trying to discuss, this time.

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:52

Re: Questioning Changes

@Siegurt: Ah. You make an excellent point about the range - I stand corrected. I agree, the mutation has got much more deadly. I'd bet it kills people several times more often than it used to - it sounds far less manageable.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 22:53

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:Deformed body places you at no immediate and random risk of potentially harsh consequences.
neither does teleportitis
Aule wrote:Blurry vision means only that you have to think about scroll-reading earlier.
teleportitis only means that you rest upstairs, which you already are
Aule wrote:Frail, wtf? 10% less HP is hardly dangerous by any stretch; you should be ashamed for even mentioning it.
neither is teleportitis and you should be ashamed for posting a whole thread about a harmless mutation
Aule wrote:And no device heal is not a rank 1 mutation; reduced device heal is.
the mutation is called no device heal, not reduced device heal
Aule wrote:Again, not dangerous.
yes obviously none of these are dangerous, NEITHER IS TELEPORTITIS

Aule wrote:
And like, you could just stop quaffing mutation potions. From the changes over crawl's lifespan it's pretty clear that the prevailing attitude among the devteam is that it should be a bad idea to mutate. I don't think you're going to change that by posting this.

Meaningless argument. Quaffing potions are the means of least concern for gaining unwanted mutations.
okay, don't quaff potions and don't eat mutagenic chunks, then

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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 23:21

Re: Questioning Changes

This is ridiculous. You're just repeating denials, completely ignoring the concrete examples I have given of its potential dangerousness. Others have agreed it is dangerous. You do not. Fine, but that does not entitle you to act in that fashion which would get anyone else a moderator's warning.

duvessa wrote:
Aule wrote:Deformed body places you at no immediate and random risk of potentially harsh consequences.
neither does teleportitis

If it triggers when you enter a new level, it does. If it triggers while you're doing an ascension, it does. But I've already stated those very real possibilities.

Aule wrote:Blurry vision means only that you have to think about scroll-reading earlier.
teleportitis only means that you rest upstairs, which you already are

If it triggers when you enter a new level, you're not resting upstairs. If it triggers while you're doing an ascension, you're not resting upstairs. But I've already stated those very real possibilities.

Aule wrote:Frail, wtf? 10% less HP is hardly dangerous by any stretch; you should be ashamed for even mentioning it.
neither is teleportitis and you should be ashamed for posting a whole thread about a harmless mutation

I posted a question. The thread was made by those disagreeing, those agreeing, those who don't care, and those who have nothing substantive to add and just love the smell of their own snark.

Aule wrote:And no device heal is not a rank 1 mutation; reduced device heal is.
the mutation is called no device heal, not reduced device heal

I didn't even know about this mutation. I've never got it.

Aule wrote:Again, not dangerous.
yes obviously none of these are dangerous, NEITHER IS TELEPORTITIS

It has been amply demonstrated otherwise, your head-shaking notwithstanding.

And like, you could just stop quaffing mutation potions. From the changes over crawl's lifespan it's pretty clear that the prevailing attitude among the devteam is that it should be a bad idea to mutate. I don't think you're going to change that by posting this.

I wasn't trying to.

Aule wrote:Meaningless argument. Quaffing potions are the means of least concern for gaining unwanted mutations.
okay, don't quaff potions and don't eat mutagenic chunks, then

Straw man argument. There are numerous enemies that can malutate one randomly. But you already know this, and simply are allowed to engage in that kind of conduct, so you take advantage of that.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 23:36

Re: Questioning Changes

duvessa wrote:
Aule wrote:Deformed body places you at no immediate and random risk of potentially harsh consequences.

neither does teleportitis

Well, if Grinder is on the level, it sure might.
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Post Saturday, 8th August 2015, 23:48

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:Deformed body places you at no immediate and random risk of potentially harsh consequences. Blurry vision means only that you have to think about scroll-reading earlier. Frail, wtf? 10% less HP is hardly dangerous by any stretch; you should be ashamed for even mentioning it. And no device heal is not a rank 1 mutation; reduced device heal is. Again, not dangerous. So whether or not you "think" these are "worse" than the new teleportitis, they are demonstrably far less potentially dangerous.

All of the mutations duvessa mentioned can only really be alleviated by quaffing cure mut and otherwise leave you at a serious disadvantage; 10% of your HP can be a meaningful number if you're ever in danger, halved AC is a very big deal, no device heal is so consequential a species is built around it, and blurry vision makes the most common escape buttons become far more dangerous.

Teleportitis, on the other hand, just puts you somewhere on the map with enemies. Your character is still just as good, and you can still use all of the potions and scrolls you have at your disposal, and if you're in a situation where getting teleported would be really bad, you can wear a fairly common amulet to prevent it.

And, honestly, I don't think you have any right to call out duvessa's behavior here, Aule. You seem to be getting pretty worked up about a video game, after all, whereas I'm pretty sure duvessa doesn't owe you a detailed list of reasons why he disagrees with you.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:00

Re: Questioning Changes

archaeo wrote:And, honestly, I don't think you have any right to call out duvessa's behavior here, Aule. You seem to be getting pretty worked up about a video game, after all, whereas I'm pretty sure duvessa doesn't owe you a detailed list of reasons why he disagrees with you.

That is simply ad hominem.

This is not being "worked up."

This is a discussion. About an element of recent game design.

But it is not, apparently, a "game design discussion," which holds post comments to higher standards.

And, no, there is nothing Orwellian about that.

Wow. My turn to lol, now.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:03

Re: Questioning Changes

The bad effect of the mutation certainly wasn't "increased by more than 33%", at least for the most significant portions of the game. If you pick a random habitable square on a typical level in the harder (earlier) sections of the game, chances are it has no monster in player LoS, so the mutation doesn't trigger. Only on a few levels like V:$ and Z:$ is a random square is highly likely to contain a monster in its LOS. It's certainly a higher chance in branch ends relative to the preceding levels, but again these are later on and are already places where the player has the most flexibility in terms of delaying that level to find e.g. stasis, cure mutation, or to just generally be strong enough in terms of defenses and consumables in order to deal with some teleportations. Bringing up decidedly end-game content like Zot:$ or the Ascension, as some tried to do, just isn't relevant to anything, because by then a character has every resource in the world to deal with anything the game can throw at them, e.g. stasis, cure mutation, -Tele artes, and just careful play with a very strong character.

It's also not true that skewing towards nearby teleports are strictly better, since you're much more likely to have have made a lot of noise at your current position and thus have to deal with monsters much more likely to be awake and grouped together as opposed to monster far away that tend to be asleep and relatively dispersed. Having some complicated design that tries to skew you towards teleporting nearby by but not if the monsters are mostly the same sounds really unnecessary to me. The "good teleports" from teleportitis really aren't an interesting enough aspect of the mutation to preserve and not the point if it's to be a "bad mutation". MarvinPA has since clarified in dev chat that he did intend for teleportitis to be worse than the previous implementation in addition to removing the boring behavior, and feels that the current triggering rate is unlikely to be way off the mark. You can consider the fact that no range restriction means less instances of teleporting back into the LOS of monsters you were fleeing and instances where you teleport from danger into the LOS of a trivial monster to be preserving good teleports.

Finally, this is CYC, not GDD; we've come to allow everyone to engage in "straw man arguments" in this forum with respect to it not causing Moderator action. If you mean what the Tavern community itself allows in terms of calling out arguments, well you just have to work harder to get into people's good graces.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:13

Re: Questioning Changes

Aule wrote:That is simply ad hominem.

It would be an "ad hominem" if I had gone on to say, "And because you're being a jerk, you're wrong!" But I'm not talking about your argument, I'm talking about your style of argumentation, which seems pretty hostile, tbh. I disagree with your argument too, of course, but because it's incorrect, not because of how you're stating it.

And, no, there is nothing Orwellian about that.

Now this I agree with. Source: this is an Internet forum, and not a dystopian future in which a totalitarian government ruthlessly oppresses the people through propaganda and surveillance.
Last edited by archaeo on Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:16

Re: Questioning Changes

archaeo wrote:Now this I agree with. Source: this is an Internet forum, and not a dystopian future in which a totalitarian government ruthlessly oppresses the people through propaganda and surveillance.


I think I mentioned this before, but 1984 was the first book I ever read with a sex scene in it.
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 00:46

Re: Questioning Changes

i just don't think teleportitis teleports or dangerous, and malmutate will never hit you if you are paying attention unless you are doing abyss or clearing mnoleg's vault (why)

if i were going for "getting away with" something without getting a board warning, i would at least get my money's worth and say people are bad at crawl, which they are

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 01:50

Re: Questioning Changes

Timeline:

1.) I post in GDD my shocked discovery of the new teleport mutation, and ask the simple question of the devs: "Why are you doing this?" I post it there because I think that asking a direct question about a design change constitutes game design discussion.

2.) Two members comment on the topic; lessens and duvessa. Duvessa's first post does not in any way meet the criteria for GDD comments, and nor does his second, but the first is so glaringly bad that I report it, only regretting that I can't also report Arrhythmia for thanking it.

3.) Neil comments, and I thank him, but I also express my firm displeasure with the change, because I feel I have a right to do so, since I am a player.

4.) Neil again responds, clarifying his statements, but unwilling to speculate about the motivation for the change, which was my original question.

5.) Duvessa, again. For no reason other than to be hostile and combative.

6.) Sprucery tries to forward the discussion.

7.) Magipi concurs with the original question.

8.) Neil updates a mistaken link.

9.) Dynast snarks.

10.) Rast, gammafunk, Sandman25 and Siegurt all contribute to the discussion.

11.) Arrhythmia posts the news that Neil had patched trunk to temporarily eliminate the mutation altogether.

12.) Rast disagrees with ontoclasm's comment.

13.) Odds asks Siegurt a question about his comment.

14.) Rast and yesno follow Odds' tangent.

15.) I comment, thanking Neil for the change, which was quite unexpected but gave me a nice feeling, somehow. I saw Arrhythmia's post about it right before making this comment, and I also thank his post, now.

16.) Gammafunk (snarkily) announces the reversion of Neil's change, adding only that future adjustments to frequency are considered.

17.) Bcadren and Sprucery continue the discussion.

18.) I reassert my position that the change is awful (IMO) because the severity of this new version of a single-rank mutation is unusually dastardly.

19.) Sandman25 and Odds voice support for the new mutation, and give their reasons why.

20.) Duvessa, for the first time, posts something that can be discussed.

21.) Siegurt posts a well-considered opinion about several nuances of the change and its effects. It would seem he also agrees the change is definitely more dangerous.

22.) I respond to duvessa's comment, adding my own snark for the first time, but still attempting to discuss constructively. Prior to this moment, there was nothing thread-hogging, hostile, or negative about anything in my conduct, despite provocations, and I would even dispute that a little tit-for-tat should be considered overtly hostile.

23.) Odds responds to Siegurt (whom I, in hindsight, should have also responded to).

24.) Duvessa responds to my attempt at dialogue by simply reiterating denials, the thing that I know drives at least one mod nuts, according to his own words, but he's staying out of it. At this juncture, I PM MarvinPA. PM stands for private message, but that's another Newspeak (i.e., Orwellian) thing, in my mind, because in the past when I've PMed a mod, another user answered the message, and he wasn't even a named mod at the time! Soon thereafter, I received an email (not a PM) from MarvinPA telling me my earlier report (for the second post in the thread) had been handled and closed. This, as well as the topic being moved out of GDD, indicated to me that I was on my own in this thread, as I am sure would have been a reasonable conclusion anyone could have drawn. I also wrote another PM asking for clarification as to whom had read or responded to my earlier PM, but I never received a reply. Notice that this is all in the background, never in the thread itself. This becomes meaningful later.

25.) In the thread itself, I reply to duvessa, point for point, and call him out on his (very typical) behavior (everywhere).

26.) Sprucery, gods bless him, fights the good fight for discussion. Good egg, he.

27.) Archaeo feels the need to step in to defend duvessa, first by expressing his specific disagreement, and then by dismissing my OP and the continuance of the topic to being "worked up," as like, in a tiff, or a snit, which itself is a belittling and insulting form of posting that is also verboten, supposedly. But never even mind that.

28.) I finally throw up my hands, letting on that I believe there to be connections behind the scenes that have conspired against the productivity of this discussion. That these connections do exist is next to be revealed.

29.) Gammafunk finally answers my question, after discussing it in the back room, so to speak. Basically, it is, yes, this is harder, and yes, we want it this way. Thanks gammafunk. But then gammafunk feels obliged to add, "Finally, this is CYC, not GDD; we've come to allow everyone to engage in "straw man arguments" in this forum with respect to it not causing Moderator action," which I knew, and I think gammafunk knew this was originally in GDD, but maybe not. Then, the closing, "If you mean what the Tavern community itself allows in terms of calling out arguments, well you just have to work harder to get into people's good graces." In other words, and this really is not a stretch, here, people, one does indeed have to be "in the clique" to somehow gain validity of participation, here. The conspiracy is real, not paranoid imaginings. So if I do not join ##crawl or hang out in ##crawl-dev, and if when I do I do not patter with the same facility as those around me, then somehow motivations are ascribed to me from within the minds of those who do, but those motivations exist solely within those minds. They are not, and cannot be, my mind. It may simply be that I do not know how to interact, there. Are my thoughts completely invalidated because I do not dwell in those places? In the minds of those who do, it is pretty clear that is so. But those are your thoughts, not mine, in truth. If you feel that my differences make me your enemy, then those also are your thoughts, not mine.

30.) Archaeo projecting again with the belittling insults, which is now that I am "hostile, tbh." I bet he was in the back room, too, noticing that I was not.

31.) Arrhythmia in tangent to archaeo. (their icons look the same to me, and it's often confusing)

32.) And, now, duvessa replies with a constructive post.

So after all this nonsense, I'll just answer that post, and end this charade, now.

duvessa wrote:i just don't think teleportitis teleports or dangerous, and malmutate will never hit you if you are paying attention unless you are doing abyss or clearing mnoleg's vault (why)

if i were going for "getting away with" something without getting a board warning, i would at least get my money's worth and say people are bad at crawl, which they are

I don't know how you think you can always control being malmutated, but I don't want to argue, really and honestly.

I certainly won't argue that I am bad a Crawl, because I know I am. If you truly believe many others are, too, then why would you want to shut so many of them out with belligerence? For some people, being bad is not a choice. Those to whom it is are often certain that theirs is the way of all, but it's just not always true. To believe otherwise is genuine arrogance.

HTH, and thanks for the time of day, such as it was.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 02:12

Re: Questioning Changes

lol

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 02:36

Re: Questioning Changes

Well, this thread is something, no one's looking great which is a bit unfortunate as it does seem like this change could use some introspection (as far as I can tell the only people even mentioned in this thread who have experienced it first-hand are MarvinPA and Aule). I have to say, it's a bit rough for a mod to move this post from GDD to CYC and then another mod to basically say to the poster, too bad, this is CYC, can't do any moderating here!

Secret tavern pro-tech: don't engage with or get worked up about duvessa saying "X is easy" or "X isn't dangerous", it's usually true at some level but meaningless as a communicative act.

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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 02:54

Re: Questioning Changes

You know what. I'm going to second. duvessa has been disruptive to conversations everywhere on the board and seems to want to pull the intelligence level down with absolute statements and complete sarcasm. I'd like to file an injunction to petition for removal of his posting privilege.
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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 03:36

Re: Questioning Changes

it sounds like a lot of people need to be better acquainted with this forum's "foe list" feature
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Post Sunday, 9th August 2015, 03:37

Re: Questioning Changes

I wasn't in "the back room" myself, advil, but anybody can read ##crawl-dev, and they had a good discussion on the teleportitis changes, which gammafunk summed up above. A player had concerns about a mechanic, the devs took a look, and they decided it was fine. Given that their discussion included all the points raised here, we should all probably play Trunk and playtest the changes to see how they work in practice. That's how this works, and it's doing pretty well.

But I'm sorry, I'm interrupting the important work of trying to censure duvessa for the high crime of being snarky about video games on the Internet. Please, continue.

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