worst 4 races

[radinms]

worst 4 races for me are

• felid
• octopede
• vampire
• tengu

any other opinion?

[onget]

Na and Ds unless you want to enter the megazig, is a stupid choice.

[Sprucery]

Personally, I have clearly the most problems with Op. Other species I can't rank.

[KoboldLord]

Naga are slow.

Mummies can't quaff curing or haste.

Formicids don't have access to teleport scrolls, blink scrolls, or potions of haste.

Octopodes lose access to plate armour without any early-game compensation.

That's assuming we're talking about a raw power standpoint. Early-game drawbacks count harshest.

If we're talking about a fun standpoint, felids are clearly the worst. Ghouls and vampires also have their unpleasant nutrition clocks, but there's nothing in the game that compares to not being able to use most items.

[daggaz]

Octopodes are great, you just need to be able to reliably survive long enough to find the rings that make them speshul. This basically involves not getting into melee situations, or at least knowing how to mitigate melee situations into something that won't kill you.

[Mulzaro]

All the species that have hard time in the early game, which is the hardest part. Playing Crawl while the character is at the brink of death all the time is very agonizing.

[dynast]

Ogre, Minotaur, Centaur and Troll.

[radinms]

Ogre, Minotaur, Centaur and Troll.

i mean worst race! you wrote op race!

[Cerekov]

• Large creatures (like Trolls) are bad for obvious reasons
• Octopodes - These land-capable relatives of common play - usually I just wanted to see how much would be least affected by your Armour Class, which decreases the amount of hit points at an early Plutonium Sword or Jihad and Virtuosity at the food system
• really any change in Felid/Kobold metabolism needed
• I said upthread, HEAE works well, basically you're looking to end up being my LEAST favorite monster ever, because the changes

[dynast]

Those are the worst from my point of view.

Ogre - bad aptitudes and armour issues are not what i usually look for when playing melee characters.
Minotaur - awful magic aptitudes makes me wonder why people pick him instead of hill orc.
Centaur - only good at keeping distance and attacking from afar, bad at everything else in comparison to a naga.
Troll - good early on and for megazigs, he falls off at a certain point in the game, where other species are starting to excel.

I would say a felid is just as bad as a deep dwarf, it just has very limited options of viable gameplay progression.

[xentronium]

Comborobin likes octopodes more than any other race.

[radinms]

Minotaur - awful magic aptitudes makes me wonder why people pick him instead of hill orc.

the reason why i prefer Mi over HO is that they have a great auxiliary attacks and Dodging aptitude.
especially at chei, auxiliary attacks are awesome - massive stats boost helps a lot -

while HOTm is not an easy combo, MiTm is a very easy and powerful combo throughout the game.
http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 142110.txt

[byrel]

I'm pretty sure dynast is speaking tongue-in-cheek...

Centaur - only good at keeping distance and attacking from afar, bad at everything else in comparison to a naga.
...
I would say a felid is just as bad as a deep dwarf, it just has very limited options of viable gameplay progression.

Like, DDs are OP. Keeping distance and attacking from afar is really half the optimal tactics in crawl. I don't think this is sincere.

[onget]

Since early game is very difficult, to focus on the early game is absolutely the right choice. Weak in the early game, all of the characters is absolutely weak. almost always early game is the most difficult place.

[dynast]

The only bad tm combo for me is mummy.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Dynast/morg ... 202303.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Dynast/morg ... 170213.txt

Optimal doesnt equals good.

DDs are OP and so are felids, but they have "mandatory to be good" choices, like a DD sticking to a healing god and felids learning statue form, cblink a invisibility. Extended game included.

[Sar]

Octopodes are the worst

[tasonir]

Question is too vague to be answered. Possible interpretations:

What are the four weakest races?
What are the four races you least like to play?
What are the four worst designed races?

One is complete opinion, and weakest in terms of power can be subdivided into various sections (for streaking, for getting first win, for extended, etc).

Imho the first one isn't describing a problem, there will always be weak races, and many players like weak races. I'm personally fond of nagas, there are several players fond of mummies, etc. Second one isn't terribly important unless you're doing greatplayer, you can just play the races you like.

Worst designed races I find more interesting, as it's something that would actually drive a need for changes/improvement. Although honestly I don't have a problem with the designs of any crawl race other than vampire, who I don't like much at all. All the other races I'm pretty fine with. I understand that DD is flawed in a theoretical sense, but practically speaking it's helpful to new players and I got my first win with them so I don't mind them hanging around. Felid is a bit out there and full of extremes, but I don't mind a race that's intended to push limits; as I said it's only ever forced on you if you're trying for greatplayer, and greatplayer aspirants should be able to deal with felid.

[duvessa]

What are the four weakest races?

mu, na, [some combination of fo/de/ds/te]

What are the four races you least like to play?

fe, dd, vp, ce

What are the four worst designed races?

dd, fe, vp, [one of sp/dr/ds/fo/gr/og/vs, haven't decided]

and weakest in terms of power can be subdivided into various sections (for streaking, for getting first win, for extended, etc)

surely those three lists would be identical...

[tasonir]

and weakest in terms of power can be subdivided into various sections (for streaking, for getting first win, for extended, etc)

surely those three lists would be identical...

They'd probably be about 90% identical, sure. But felids are apparently the best streaking race, and I wouldn't subject newbies who haven't won to them

[duvessa]

nobody thinks felids are the best streaking race

[dynast]

Maybe not the best, but i think they are good for streaking. But only FeSu and FeTm.

[Berder]

Felids are an excellent streaking race. You just have to make it to xl3 and then if you're playing carefully enough, you might die once but you won't die twice.

[MainiacJoe]

It speaks only to my inexperience that Vine Stalkers are my worst. Adder venom is my nemesis with them.

[tabstorm]

Bottom 4 weakest races: DE Op (power gap) Na Mu (Na and Mu are close, both are easy to die with early on even if you don't really make any mistakes but Na is easy later on)
Least favorite races: Fe Op Vp Mu

[dynast]

My least favorite races are Minotaur because it is just plain boring, Ogre because of its very specific aptitudes(wield club, throw rocks and stuff) Deep Elf because he is too good at every spell school and Demigod because fuck that guy.

[yesno]

why do so many dislike playing vampires? just the weird food clock? or something else?

[onget]

It speaks only to my inexperience that Vine Stalkers are my worst. Adder venom is my nemesis with them.

I believe VS is one of the most powerful species. If you want to use a melee, it is always powerful.

[radinms]

why do so many dislike playing vampires? just the weird food clock? or something else?

because vampire is terrible weak. terrible stats, terrible aptitude, terrible regeneration... too many terrible. "worst" race.

for vampire

• early game: too hard. early game is one of the most difficult part in DCSS
• mid game: hard because of vampire
• late game: hard because of vampire
• extended game: worst because of vampire.Even mummy is easily to get all runes

if you want to see the detail why vampire is too weak, should see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16432

and if you want to see terrible weak vampire to get all runes, should see the morgue:
http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 065610.txt

[duvessa]

why do so many dislike playing vampires? just the weird food clock? or something else?

yes, babysitting their meaningless food system the whole game makes them pretty unappealing since you don't have to do that with any other species

[MainiacJoe]

It speaks only to my inexperience that Vine Stalkers are my worst. Adder venom is my nemesis with them.

I believe VS is one of the most powerful species. If you want to use a melee, it is always powerful.

I know, everyone says that! But I haven't figured them out yet.

[dynast]

I dont consider vampires weak, but i can understand why most people dont like them. Yeah the extended game as a vampire is a pain in the ass.

[Berder]

Vampires are neato. There's more depth to them than there is to most races. You get to choose your thirst state each with its own resistances and regen, use batform for quick escapes, and regain HP by stabbing. Plus they have generally decent aptitudes for everything. Of course, they do suck in extended.

[yesno]

personally i like vampires, though maybe they are a bit weak. to me main problem is their traits are limited/situational versions of things spriggans can do. high EV and speed, but only when bat, takes a turn to transform and loses armour and resists. high stealth, but only when starving. similar aptitudes, only really good at hexes and stabbing, not quite good enough at dodging or weapons. but for whatever reason i still like them a lot.

for me, 4 worst are felid, mummy, troll, ghoul

[Greyr]

DD, Hu, Tr, VS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoethxOp5Kg

[Magipi]

What are the four weakest races?

mu, na, [some combination of fo/de/ds/te]

What are Ds and Te doing there? And where's Op?

[WingedEspeon]

Mu, Op, Fe, DE. Te are alright because they get +20% EV and boots of running effect when flying, and good weapon apts to offste their -2 HP. I'm not saying they are good, but there are worse speices.

FoFi is diesel, and IMO a race is good if even one background makes them diesel.

Vp is good at Fi/Gl/Be if you pick unarmed and good at Mo. Easy hunger state management: Are you alive? ->No->Drink blood. Not any worse than managing troll hunger. Early on (D:1, level 1) the fighting apt doesn't matter as much because you have very little invested in it and your pumping you weapon skill (probably unarmed). Fangs 3 helps a lot on D:1. You you clear D:1 you should have very good regen making you a better fighter than a human, especially as your fangs are still relivent.

UC is good if you atart with it in very early D as it has better accuracy than non SBl weapons and good attack speed. The damage catches up to a +0 falchion at lvl 5 and a long sword at level 7 long before those weapons hit min delay. what makes weapons outclass UC at mid skill rank is enchantment, and you probably don't have very much enchantment on your D:1 weapon. By the time weapons start getting a better, you are past he hard part of the game anyway.

lso, early orc wizards that go invisable and unseen horrors are a lot less dangerous when you have intrinsic sInv. later this may save you an equipment slot as vaults/dpts can be dangerous without sInv.

[kroki]

Ogre, Minotaur, Centaur and Troll.

r u havin a giggle m8?

[Rast]

I'm glad this thread is about crawl species.

[duvessa]

What are the four weakest races?

mu, na, [some combination of fo/de/ds/te]

What are Ds and Te doing there? And where's Op?

ds is like a way worse human, te basically has de hp
op isn't there because it has amazing damage, imo it is actually better than e.g. ko and definitely better than those four

[tasonir]

Te is the race I really want to like but I just can't because it has -20% hp. They'd make such great monks if they didn't just randomly die

Honestly I feel like all - hp races should be reevaluated - there's no reason why octopodes/HE can't have normal hp, deep elves/tengu/kobold have -10%. That would leave only spriggans, VS, gargoyle, and felid as races with -20% or worse. So you either have mana shield, insane AC, or speed to deal with your low hp. Deep elf "good magic aptitudes" doesn't really make up for -20% hp, and a 20% bonus to EV usually only ends up being ~5-6 EV, which is no where near +20ac for a gargoyle. Deep elves are still easier than tengu imho, but I wouldn't mind giving all 5 (octopode, high elf, deep elf, tengu, kobold) +10% hp from their current. Could possibly include halfling but probably not.

[WingedEspeon]

bHE having +0 HP apt IMO would be a little OP, but OP in a good way, as there would still be stronger 3 rune species (Mi, Ho, Mf, DD, Etc). This wold make them essentialy the Mi/Tr of magic, ecept for the fact that that they would be good at being mundane. I agree that tengu could also use a buff, but they arn't quite as bad as DE because they at least have good weapon apts and 0 fighting apt as opposed to -2 fighting. DE could use a buff imo because they seem to be intended to not be weak but are. OP could probably stay as they are, as they seem to be desinged as a challenge species. Some how buffing Ko HP and not Ha hp just seems wrong, because if you want to play a small species pretty much the only reason to pick Ha over Ko is the HP apt. Th would make ko go from less robust than Ha to more robust due to the fighting apt.

ds is like a way worse human, te basically has de hp

even if Ds is like worse Hu, it isn't that much worse imo (well, demonic gaudian can be really bad at times...) and Hu is a power species anyway.

why do so many dislike playing vampires? just the weird food clock? or something else?

because vampire is terrible weak. terrible stats, terrible aptitude, terrible regeneration... too many terrible. "worst" race.

for vampire

• early game: too hard. early game is one of the most difficult part in DCSS
• mid game: hard because of vampire
• late game: hard because of vampire
• extended game: worst because of vampire.Even mummy is easily to get all runes

if you want to see the detail why vampire is too weak, should see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16432

and if you want to see terrible weak vampire to get all runes, should see the morgue:
http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 065610.txt

7 str 10 int / 9 dex base stats is better than Hu by 2 stat points and equal to Hu on a no spell charter. If you are playing 0.16, I will agree that the late game stats are terrible,, but his is already fixed in trunk. Vampire has +0 long blades if you want to use a weapon, which is respectable. they also have +1 UC which is as good as UC gets. they also get +1 short blades if you want to be a stabber. -1 fighting isn't that great, but it hurts your mid/late game but not really your early game, which is the hardest part of the game anyway.

As spellcasting apts go VP actualy has pretty good apts. -1 spellcasting is average. They have -2 fire and -1 poison apts, be ice magic is better than fire anyway unless you doing something like megazigs and need firestorm. -3 conjuration means they aren't very good at being conjurers, but conjurations aren't exactly considered to be the strongest spells anyway. The only remaining apt that is negative is translocations. This is annoying, but one important spell school being -2 doesn't exactly make them bad spellcasters. However, they have +1 charms and +1 necromancy, which are strong spell schools. They also have a +0 in summoning, another strong school.

-1 invo means that you should probably choose a god that doesn’t require invo, but doesn't hurt their power too much. -1 evo isn't good, but evo is generally a support skill anyway. -2 armour +1 dodging isn't good, but it isn't bad enough to be terrible. +0 HP +0 MP is good. really just having a non negitive HP apt and full equpment slots makes them good. -1 exp is bad but no where near terrible. -2 shields rarely is significant. (O, they also have +4 hexes if you are playing a stabber for some reason ...)

If you keep as full as possible, your regeneration is actually good. This compensates for the HP lost to low fighting/exp apts. having fangs 3 without losing any equipment slots is very good. The fangs, combined with the intrinsic sInv makes early game easy. +4 MR per level is also better than Hu. you just need to be careful/run away from the very rare enemy with a HW weapon.

The only way I see mid game being hard is if you run out of blood because you got spider. other than that, you are at mid game and at worst you are just slightly worst than a human. Slightly worst than a mid game human at mid game=strong.

at late game your exp apt no longer really matters so you you probably like a slightly stronger human with a not particularly important HW vulnerability.

In extended, you basicaly have 1 good choice of gods: Kiku. Kiku is generally considered a relatively strong god in extended anyway. Lack of strong god choices =/= weak (look at deep dwarf). Mummy in extended isn't a fair comparasin, as mummy is one of the strongest species in extended anyway. Maybe your 15 rune vampire was weak because you were following the wrong god and were trying to be a stabber, not because you were a vampire.

[yesno]

-1 fighting isn't that great, but it hurts your mid/late game but not really your early game, which is the hardest part of the game anyway.

early game vp is kind of easy because: /fangs are strong against early enemies /batform is low risk escape from most threats through lair, /stabbing is good early game and vp get good at it with low xp investment. take it from me, a bad player who finds vp early game a breeze but dies midgame from fragility, low damage, and overconfidence over and over

[radinms]

My 15 runes Vp was NOT pure stabber.
He used +9 demon blade(flame) and 19.3 LB skill. Even that, very very weak and too many trouble.

Maybe you say "pure stabber is weak in extended".
it is right, but I want to say "both pure stabber Vp and LB Vp are weak and terrible".
Anyway, Vp is a weak race.
Strong Vp is Statue Vp, only.

And you say Vp should go kiku?
Yeah, it is right, because kiku is a top-tier god in current DCSS except trog, Chei.
"Vp in kiku is strong", it is right, because "anything of kiku is strong".
My Opinion is: Vp is a terrible weak race, so worshiping kiku is optimal.

And you say mummy is one of the strongest species in extended game??
If you say ghoul, I agree.
Mummy in extended game is not strong.
no potion, bad skill even pan, no holy weapon... too many terrible!
But it is easier than Vp, sure.

[radinms]

And tengu's weapon aptitude is meaningless because melee tengu is very hard.
Ko is very easier than Tengu, though.

[Sphara]

Te is the race I really want to like but I just can't because it has -20% hp. They'd make such great monks if they didn't just randomly die

You get speed and evasion bonus with flight at XL 5. That EASILY lifts tengu out of the bottom four.

Mummies are the worst for me for the reasons mentioned thousand times in this forum. Hard to rank others. As for vampires, I don't find the thirst system hard or tedious to play with at all. Mainly because I stay as close to 'Alive' status as it is possible for 99% of the game time.

[bel]

I don't find Vp bad either because I stay close to "Thirsty" status with them 99% of game time.

[duvessa]

You get speed and evasion bonus with flight at XL 5. That EASILY lifts tengu out of the bottom four.

It would if you got it before XL 5, which you don't.

[WingedEspeon]

My 15 runes Vp was NOT pure stabber.
He used +9 demon blade(flame) and 19.3 LB skill. Even that, very very weak and too many trouble.

Maybe you say "pure stabber is weak in extended".
it is right, but I want to say "both pure stabber Vp and LB Vp are weak and terrible".
Anyway, Vp is a weak race.
Strong Vp is Statue Vp, only.

And you say Vp should go kiku?
Yeah, it is right, because kiku is a top-tier god in current DCSS except trog, Chei.
"Vp in kiku is strong", it is right, because "anything of kiku is strong".
My Opinion is: Vp is a terrible weak race, so worshiping kiku is optimal.

And you say mummy is one of the strongest species in extended game??
If you say ghoul, I agree.
Mummy in extended game is not strong.
no potion, bad skill even pan, no holy weapon... too many terrible!
But it is easier than Vp, sure.

I say go kiku in extended because kiku is strong and because kiku lets you regulate your hunger. This is kind of like DD picking Mak because Mak is strong and solves most of your healing issues. You also don't need 15 runes to win. Vp is a lot stronger in a 3 rune game than a 15 rune one, and since the game gets easier as you progress, being a lit weak in extended isn't too much of a big deal.

Maybe you say "pure stabber is weak in extended".
it is right, but I want to say "both pure stabber Vp and LB Vp are weak and terrible".

Maybe that is true, but you could have gone UC.

Ghoul is probably the strongest species in extended. I didn't say mummy is the strongest species in extended, I said it is one of the strongest. Mummy is maybe the second or third strongest in extended. IDK, maybe my opinion of mummy in extended is bias from doing things like fighting the pan lord in the first pan floor I enter and taking 0 damage the entire fight, and stupidly fighting Mnoleg at int stat 0 and only dropping to 70% HP.

[radinms]

My point is anything of kiku is strong, so if you want to play strong character, there is no reason to choose Vp. not undead race+Kiku is obviously stronger.
(If you want to win Vp, to choose kiku is optimal because Vp is terrible)

Same DD Makhleb...anything of makhleb is ok.
Gr, Mi, VS etc... of makhleb is easier than DD.

And "A is one of the strongest races" means
"B=C=D=A>=E>=...", right?
(I'm not a native speaker)

[Sar]

Gr, Mi, VS etc... of makhleb is easier than DD.

I don't think many people will agree with that.