The Alligator/Crocodile Conundrum

[ZipZipskins]

Can we switch these already, I mean, have you ever even heard of Nile crocodiles? They make alligators look like tiny baby infants in onesies, and I haven't even mentioned saltwater crocodiles. Crocodiles practically invented being horrible nightmare terrors. They aren't called the Alligator Hunter and Alligator Dundee. "Ma, there's a gator in the house! Get the shovel!" is a joke in a Pixar movie that makes children laugh. "Ma, there's a croc in the house! Get the shovel!" is not a joke in anything, because nobody gets past the first two words before they're clamped in mighty, viselike jaws and deathrolled until every bone in their body is broken, even the ear ones, and they're tossed aside like a presidential candidate with principles during the primaries. (JOKE FOR AMERICANS)

Or I guess eaten.

anyway who's with me

[duvessa]

just remove crocodiles, "water yak" is not a monster that crawl needs

[ZipZipskins]

"solitary water yak"

I thought about that too actually but if I were for real about any of this I wouldn't have posted here

[daggaz]

They would be more interesting if they were A) much beefier and B) actual ambush predators. Give them full submersion, no spoilery ripples in the water, and then give them a constriction attack (reflavored) and allow them to pull the player into shallow water like a mermaid.

Now you cant see them coming, and they are a threat even before they pin you in unfavorable terrain. For bonus point, make their surprise attack rather noisy.

[dowan]

For extra bonus fun, enjoy walking 1 tile away from water whenever possible. Hooray autoexplore traps!
Now, if they dragged you to the water and got some kind of bonus there, that might be interesting, although it would still encourage you to lure them far from water. If they were given fast movement it might work though.

[daggaz]

For extra bonus fun, enjoy walking 1 tile away from water whenever possible. Hooray autoexplore traps!
Now, if they dragged you to the water and got some kind of bonus there, that might be interesting, although it would still encourage you to lure them far from water. If they were given fast movement it might work though.

Ahahahahhahahaa... no but seriously not really I am also being sarcastic.

In swamp, you can rarely walk more than 1 tile away from water, you certainly cant explore the level that way. And who is to say you should be able to lure them? Its a crocodile, if it misses its meal, it just goes back underwater and waits it out. No reason to see this monster outside of swamp really, except maybe in the occasional vault/orc fortress moat...

See, sometimes it might help more to come up with positive ways to push an idea forward, rather than just assuming a lot of negative crap about it (as if the game is static in the first place). If it still sucks, hey, no harm no foul. Or failing that we could just fall back to one of your famous "remove everything" lists and play Crawl:Stoneless, seedless, and packaged for your convenience. Oh. There's that edgy sarcasm again. It sure is catchy.

[jejorda2]

Yeah, trample sometimes knocks you out of your choke point and lets more of a pack through to hit you, but often it is toothless because you have lured one enemy away or because the trample moves you away from the pack and into a safer position.

A reverse trample that moved you and the enemy in the direction of the enemy (or in the direction of water?) could end up being more dangerous. Make it an attack brand like the attack-to-blink-self that imps and phantoms and blink frogs have, and let it displace smaller enemies and enemies of the same genus so you get pulled into groups sometimes.

Crocodiles are too often solitary, but the noisy aspect could help fix that.

[dowan]

For extra bonus fun, enjoy walking 1 tile away from water whenever possible. Hooray autoexplore traps!
Now, if they dragged you to the water and got some kind of bonus there, that might be interesting, although it would still encourage you to lure them far from water. If they were given fast movement it might work though.

Ahahahahhahahaa... no but seriously not really I am also being sarcastic.

In swamp, you can rarely walk more than 1 tile away from water, you certainly cant explore the level that way. And who is to say you should be able to lure them? Its a crocodile, if it misses its meal, it just goes back underwater and waits it out. No reason to see this monster outside of swamp really, except maybe in the occasional vault/orc fortress moat...

See, sometimes it might help more to come up with positive ways to push an idea forward, rather than just assuming a lot of negative crap about it (as if the game is static in the first place). If it still sucks, hey, no harm no foul. Or failing that we could just fall back to one of your famous "remove everything" lists and play Crawl:Stoneless, seedless, and packaged for your convenience. Oh. There's that edgy sarcasm again. It sure is catchy.

Erm... I think you have me confused with my sister. I don't do any kind of remove everything lists. I don't think anything I do is famous, although I'm flattered that you think so.

But alligators and crocodiles appear in more than swamp. And your suggestion has the same big problem that shadow traps had, except worse, because these crocodile traps can only happen next to water. So they strongly discourage autoexplore, and strongly encourage tedious behavior like avoiding tiles you haven't already stood on. Monsters that hide underwater have already been recognized by the devs as hugely problematic.

I did try to advance the idea forward by suggesting a non-hidden croc that tries to drag you into the water, then also pointed out for that to work, they need fast movement. The same idea as the reverse trample thing jejorda was talking about. If they just stay back in the water, then it's just something to break autoexplore and tediously walk around, if they're actually threatening.

Feel free to ignore my input, but I'm not just trying to bash your idea, I'm just pointing out what I see as some big flaws. I really hate situations that make it a bad idea to press 'o' and this sounds like it would do just that.

[File200]

But alligators and crocodiles appear in more than swamp. And your suggestion has the same big problem that shadow traps had, except worse, because these crocodile traps can only happen next to water. So they strongly discourage autoexplore, and strongly encourage tedious behavior like avoiding tiles you haven't already stood on. Monsters that hide underwater have already been recognized by the devs as hugely problematic.

I did try to advance the idea forward by suggesting a non-hidden croc that tries to drag you into the water, then also pointed out for that to work, they need fast movement. The same idea as the reverse trample thing jejorda was talking about. If they just stay back in the water, then it's just something to break autoexplore and tediously walk around, if they're actually threatening.

Feel free to ignore my input, but I'm not just trying to bash your idea, I'm just pointing out what I see as some big flaws. I really hate situations that make it a bad idea to press 'o' and this sounds like it would do just that.

Maybe you should rely on auto-explore a little less...there are already a lot of situations where it will kill you.

I'm in favor of more interesting aquatic enemies, and I like your "Constricting Crocodile" idea. I propose we give alligators the constrict-and-pull mechanic, and remove their ability to hide. If there must be aquatic enemies that can both hide and pose a threat without being hidden, they should at least be based on camouflage predators. Like octopi. Maybe add some sort of "Croctopus" unique, which would be a constricting crocodile that can hide and use weapons. As for crocodiles, I suggest they (and big fish) be replaced with Aquatic Yak herds. Yaks that can swim and shoot pressurized water. Let them create temporary shallow water in a radius around their target.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

They would be more interesting if they were A) much beefier and B) actual ambush predators. Give them full submersion, no spoilery ripples in the water, and then give them a constriction attack (reflavored) and allow them to pull the player into shallow water like a mermaid.

Now you cant see them coming, and they are a threat even before they pin you in unfavorable terrain. For bonus point, make their surprise attack rather noisy.

full submersion is a idiotic gimmick that should be removed, not added more of.

[Chicken]

Yeah, "Drowning" should work like "Starving" -- doesn't mean you are dead right now, only that you're in a heap of trouble.