Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal


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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:22

Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

There's a real design space for meaningful choices in weapon selection, and I think dual-wielding can fill it.

The Design Space
Sometimes, you find a nice one-handed weapon, but it doesn't give you quite enough damage. Your character doesn't need the extra defense of shields, or can't use them effectively. So what do you do? Find another one-handed weapon and go to town.

Dual-wielding should be an option that you build into in certain situations, rather than a goal for your character. Ideally, it should be provide less damage against depth-appropriate enemies than two-handed weapons, but compensate with the versatility of having an extra brand or artifact bonuses. Dual-wielding could also be used to deal with evasive targets.

Possible Implementation
Dual-wielding is a trained skill, like shields. Your off-hand weapon uses whichever is lower between you weapon skill and your dual-wielding skill to determine hit bonus and attack delay. Dual-wielding also provides a shield bonus based on minimum skill. Your off-hand weapon is equipped in your shield slot, and you wield or remove it by equipping it as such. In tiles, ctrl+click on a weapon in your inventory adds it to your off-hand.

You can only equip one-handed weapons in your off-hand (even as a Formicid) and your off-hand must have a base delay equal to or lower than you main-hand weapon. When you attack, you use your main-hand weapons delay, and the time units that you spent attacking are recorded. Your off-hand attack triggers whenever its delay in time units has passed. For example, if you wield a longsword (attack delay 9) and a short sword (attack delay 5), then 9 units pass when you attack. You use the long sword once and the short sword once. If you attack again, 18 units will have passed, meaning you use the long sword once and the short sword twice on this turn. It will be 18 - 15 = 2 units of time before the short sword is used again. This number resets when you take an action other than attacking. This might sound hard to keep track of, but on the player's end it won't be any more complicated than regular melee.

Why Implement Something so Complicated?
It's true that from a coding perspective, this will take a lot of time and testing, but the ability to freeze and electrocute enemies at the same time is cool enough to justify the addition.

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:38

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Doesnt seem nearly as effective in comparison to training a single skill and using two handed weapons though, so you would have to think up something to even those off.

Besides, i like to believe this game already have dual wielding, i call it blade hands.
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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 22:03

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:Doesnt seem nearly as effective in comparison to training a single skill and using two handed weapons though, so you would have to think up something to even those off.

Besides, i like to believe this game already have dual wielding, i call it blade hands.

G&G (dual-wielding unrand) there is.

unarmed works as dual-wielding.

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 22:23

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Unarmed works like dual-wielding if we disregard weapon enchantments, brands, delays... pretty much everything about weapons.

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 22:37

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

onget wrote:G&G (dual-wielding unrand) there is.

unarmed works as dual-wielding.


BUT ITS NOT AS COOL! ...and not nearly as strong.

A single weapon that is wielded with both hands is just another two handed weapon as far as i am concerned, i dont care how many hits you get per tab, which just emphatizes how irrelevant dual wielding is as a weapon skill idea.
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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 23:35

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:Doesnt seem nearly as effective in comparison to training a single skill and using two handed weapons though, so you would have to think up something to even those off.

Besides, i like to believe this game already have dual wielding, i call it blade hands.

Well, it's not supposed to be competitive with two-handed weapons in every game. It's a situational compromise between two-handed weapons and shields, which lets you take advantage of strong one-handed weapons you find without completely gimping your damage. You don't build your character in a vacuum. It would be nice if I could get an executioner's axe of speed or electrocution in every game, but it's more likely that I'll find several war axes with electrocution or some other usable brand. Especially with Trog and Oka as gods. Those dicks are always giving me randart one-handers of (insert brand) that give (useful resistance), but don't do enough damage for me.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:13

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

File200 wrote:Well, it's not supposed to be competitive with two-handed weapons in every game. It's a situational compromise between two-handed weapons and shields, which lets you take advantage of strong one-handed weapons you find without completely gimping your damage. You don't build your character in a vacuum. It would be nice if I could get an executioner's axe of speed or electrocution in every game, but it's more likely that I'll find several war axes with electrocution or some other usable brand. Especially with Trog and Oka as gods. Those dicks are always giving me randart one-handers of (insert brand) that give (useful resistance), but don't do enough damage for me.


So its a situational assumption?

Also, why would you wear a art off-hand weapon for its resistances instead of a shield, other than another assumption that you wont get a decent shield but will get a art weapon with good resistances?
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:14

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Technically speaking, your proposal as-is is better than wielding a two handed weapon, and costs less XP. (Even discounting the bonuses from getting like two flat-damage brands, and the additional resistance slots)
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:15

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:
File200 wrote:Well, it's not supposed to be competitive with two-handed weapons in every game. It's a situational compromise between two-handed weapons and shields, which lets you take advantage of strong one-handed weapons you find without completely gimping your damage. You don't build your character in a vacuum. It would be nice if I could get an executioner's axe of speed or electrocution in every game, but it's more likely that I'll find several war axes with electrocution or some other usable brand. Especially with Trog and Oka as gods. Those dicks are always giving me randart one-handers of (insert brand) that give (useful resistance), but don't do enough damage for me.


So its a situational assumption?

Also, why would you wear a art off-hand weapon for its resistances instead of a shield, other than another assumption that you wont get a decent shield but will get a art weapon with good resistances?


In all fairness, one-handed artifact weapons are more common than shields with any ego at all.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:26

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Siegurt wrote:In all fairness, one-handed artifact weapons are more common than shields with any ego at all.


I didnt say it had to have a ego, now i ask if by artifact weapon you mean a +9 rf++ type of artifact one handed weapon...

My point is that File200 consider dual-wielding a escape option for not finding a huge axe, which i consider impossible, like the one time my centaur didnt find a blowgun.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:48

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Siegurt wrote:Technically speaking, your proposal as-is is better than wielding a two handed weapon, and costs less XP. (Even discounting the bonuses from getting like two flat-damage brands, and the additional resistance slots)

That's actually what I was thinking, but people in this and older threads said otherwise...I should really check whether people are any good at this game before I consider their opinion. And it's only stronger outright in the early game, when things have less AC. The proposal could be balanced by making the off-hand weapon use the average of your weapon skill and your dual-wield skill, then add two to the effective base delay of the weapon. (The weapon keeps the same minimum delay, but it takes more investment to reach it.)

dynast wrote:I didnt say it had to have a ego, now i ask if by artifact weapon you mean a +9 rf++ type of artifact one handed weapon...

My point is that File200 consider dual-wielding a escape option for not finding a huge axe, which i consider impossible, like the one time my centaur didnt find a blowgun.

It's an escape option for not finding a huge axe *WITH A GOOD BRAND*, and for not finding a shield *THAT WOULD BE USEFUL FOR YOUR CHARACTER*. These are not remotely comparable to finding a blowgun as a centaur.

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Centaurs don't even need blowguns. You can win with nothing but small rocks and a hand axe.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 00:57

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

File200 wrote:
Spoiler: show
Centaurs don't even need blowguns. You can win with nothing but small rocks and a hand axe.


Unrelated: Thats what they told me before i tackled Cerebov. I mentioned impossible and then mentioned my centaur scenario to dismiss it with some humour.

Related: your dual-wielding proposal should stand on the ground of "what unique effect/changes it brings to the game" and not on "a option to deal with what the rng throws at you".
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:34

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:
File200 wrote:
Spoiler: show
Centaurs don't even need blowguns. You can win with nothing but small rocks and a hand axe.


Unrelated: Thats what they told me before i tackled Cerebov. I mentioned impossible and then mentioned my centaur scenario to dismiss it with some humour.
Double-unrelated: throwing should be taken into consideration in balancing dual-wielding. Imagine a centaur that can throw rocks while wielding TWO hand axes...nothing could stop it.
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Really though, centaurs with dual-wielding and javelins would be way too powerful. Off-hand weapons should slow down throwing.


dynast wrote:Related: your dual-wielding proposal should stand on the ground of "what unique effect/changes it brings to the game" and not on "a option to deal with what the rng throws at you".
Uh...adding options for character building *IS* a unique change, especially when they require you to consider the possibility of future rng rolls. The proposal is more than just hedging bets. It's a two-fold gamble: you're betting that your current one-handed weapons are strong enough to justify investing in an entirely new skill, while also betting that the one-handed weapons you find in the future will be strong enough to stay competitive with two-handers. Betting wrong means you gimp your character. Betting right means you're better able to handle most enemies and slightly worse at handling others.

Do you want to know what tactical options it will create? The answer is none. It's a strategic choice, not a tactical one. This is true for literally every weapon in the game. Honestly, I'm wary of talking about tactics at all. Features and monsters that I consider tactically interesting are constantly nerfed and removed...because other players think that they're frustrating and not interesting.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:08

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

H-how does throwing while wielding 2 weapons makes you stronger?

So yeah, lets add this complex dual wielding mechanic for the sake of player weapon choice/bet.

You can consider polymoths tactical creatures the same way i can consider xom a tactical god because i already know everything he can do and how to please him, for the people who dont though both of these are just random bullshit.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:08

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

This would be WAY too OP. The really good one handed weapons don't deal that much less damage than two handed weapons. evening start has a base damage of 15, while a great mace has a base damage of 17. A battle axe/ glaive are considered passable end game (2h) weapons, and they both have a base damage of 15. Doing something like get 12 dual wielding and dual wielding two demon blades, two demon whips, a double sword/evening star with a demon blade/demon whip, or even a good 1h long blade with a crosstraind short blade of elec would be VERY strong. This proposal would make 2h weapon VERY suboptimal. Also, UC 1h in trunk is balance around shields sucking. Getting 12 M&F and 12 dual whielding, and using a demon whip in your off hand while you punch things to death would be super strong.

Sometime I need to play a quickblade user with 27 UC and an empty off hand for the off hand punches :)
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:26

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:H-how does throwing while wielding 2 weapons makes you stronger?

So yeah, lets add this complex dual wielding mechanic for the sake of player weapon choice/bet.

You can consider polymoths tactical creatures the same way i can consider xom a tactical god because i already know everything he can do and how to please him, for the people who dont though both of these are just random bullshit.
Dude...do you really, honestly not see the power of this mechanic? It's not even about throwing. It's the fact that throwing is already strong, and adding that to the ability to use two weapon brands allows you to get past any defense and fight at any range.

Whatever. If you don't see the difference between a low-health enemy that can buff (or nerf) enemies and FRIGGIN' XOM, then any explanation about anything in this game will probably be lost on you.

WingedEspeon wrote:This would be WAY too OP. The really good one handed weapons don't deal that much less damage than two handed weapons. evening start has a base damage of 15, while a great mace has a base damage of 17. A battle axe/ glaive are considered passable end game (2h) weapons, and they both have a base damage of 15. Doing something like get 12 dual wielding and dual wielding two demon blades, two demon whips, a double sword/evening star with a demon blade/demon whip, or even a good 1h long blade with a crosstraind short blade of elec would be VERY strong. This proposal would make 2h weapon VERY suboptimal. Also, UC 1h in trunk is balance around shields sucking. Getting 12 M&F and 12 dual whielding, and using a demon whip in your off hand while you punch things to death would be super strong.

Sometime I need to play a quickblade user with 27 UC and an empty off hand for the off hand punches :)
I didn't realize one-handed weapons and unarmed combat were that strong in trunk...but in retrospect, they've been viable for a while now. The idea still needs tweaking. Obviously, you shouldn't be allowed to use 1.5 handed weapons with dual-wielding, since they already deal competitive damage. Maybe apply the off-hand penalties to both hands, so you need an extra 4 points in your weapon skill and an equal dual-wielding skill to reach the normal minimum attack delay.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:35

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Because if you are on melee range with dual weapons you gonna use those weapons and when the target is far from you they are useless and would be better to be wearing a shield while throwing specially when you can throw and move(as a centaur) faster than most creatures can chase you, but yeah, dual wielding is really strong, doesnt bring anything new to the game, its complicated to implement, yet you hope for it to be implemented and cant understand why it never will.

Because you know how this game works its safe to assume that everybody else will, thats why polymoths should stay in the game, because every player who enters a branch should be ready to fight any creature from any other branch, even the ones he doesnt have any idea that exists.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 03:47

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

dynast wrote:Because if you are on melee range with dual weapons you gonna use those weapons and when the target is far from you they are useless and would be better to be wearing a shield while throwing specially when you can throw and move(as a centaur) faster than most creatures can chase you, but yeah, dual wielding is really strong, doesnt bring anything new to the game, its complicated to implement, yet you hope for it to be implemented and cant understand why it never will.

Because you know how this game works its safe to assume that everybody else will, thats why polymoths should stay in the game, because every player who enters a branch should be ready to fight any creature from any other branch, even the ones he doesnt have any idea that exists.
Do you...realize what forum you're posting in? Here's a hint: it's NOT the one called "Game Design Discussion." I already know why dual-wielding won't be implemented, and it's not for any of the reasons you listed. (It's because the people who can code it have other things to work on.) It's pretty funny that you flip-flopped from saying that dual wielding is weak to saying its really strong AFTER I made it weaker, and doubly funny that you think you can talk down to me while being so clueless.

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I was joking about liking polymoths. They would need major restrictions to work in the game even if they're conceptually interesting. Not only did you fail to recognize a joke, you went ahead and said something that was even dumber than liking polymoths. Xom is a completely optional feature, not something that can screw over any character.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 03:59

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

File200 wrote:I already know why dual-wielding won't be implemented, and it's not for any of the reasons you listed. (It's because the people who can code it have other things to work on.)
...

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 04:02

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

You find it funny that people may be wrong and have change of opinion? yeah i thought it was weak at first read it because guess what, you are not the first person to come up with dual wielding proposal, so i made the wrong assumption, you want me to apologise for that? Sorry.

File200 wrote:Features and monsters that I consider tactically interesting are constantly nerfed and removed...because other players think that they're frustrating and not interesting.


This is what you said before mentioning polymoths, so yeah, i didnt realise you were making a joke, when these things happens maybe you should clarify instead of making fun of the person who didnt get it, as i did when you replied about my centaur scenario.

I want to make you understand why your proposal is not gonna be accepted, i dont care if this is CYC or GDD, if you dont want to discuss about it then dont, just dont close up with "you dont understand it" if you cant bring yourself to try make people understand your points then dont post about it and if im making you feel unconfortable just say it and i will stop.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 04:04

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

duvessa wrote:
File200 wrote:I already know why dual-wielding won't be implemented, and it's not for any of the reasons you listed. (It's because the people who can code it have other things to work on.)
...
Let me rephrase, it's because the people who can code have better things to work on. It's not that the idea is inherently unworkable.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 04:09

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

ok i guess you were serious? because you're wrong. dual-wielding is on the won't do list, like all the other items on that list, not because "we devs don't want to invest the time in it", but because "we devs think it's stupid and would make the game stupid", and as long as two-handed weapons continue to exist, they are right
tbh though posting this in gdd would have worked fine because stuff on that list has gotten added to crawl anyway several times

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 05:34

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

duvessa wrote:ok i guess you were serious? because you're wrong. dual-wielding is on the won't do list, like all the other items on that list, not because "we devs don't want to invest the time in it", but because "we devs think it's stupid and would make the game stupid", and as long as two-handed weapons continue to exist, they are right
tbh though posting this in gdd would have worked fine because stuff on that list has gotten added to crawl anyway several times
The dev team isn't a monolith. I don't go on IRC frequently so I'm not really in touch with the general attitude, but I know that at least one contributor (a college friend who has sadly dropped out of contact) was working on a dual-wielding code by himself. He dropped the project to work on other things that weren't Crawl-related. I tried to add dual-wielding too, but realized that it was too big for me to handle. I think that a lot of people, including coders, have put thought into it, but it has such a strong stigma attached to it that any conversation about it becomes toxic.

Edit: Oh man, I'm sorry. I reread my post and it seems to be saying "Dual-wielding would be implemented if not for things getting in the way." Of course a lot of Devs think that it's stupid, but that's true for 80% of everything that eventually gets into Crawl. I just meant that anyone who would be willing to create a branch for it is busy with more important things.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 17:27

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

The dev team doesn't refer to "people who have at some point written code intended for crawl," it refers to "people with commit access to the DCSS repository," i.e. people who have the authorization to make changes to the game. You seem confident to make claims as to what the dev team does and does not support despite not understanding what the dev team actually is. In any case I can assure you that, among active dev team members, the idea of essentially reimplementing 2h weapons in a more complicated way has a level of support much closer to 0% than to 20% (that's why it's on the won't-do list). It doesn't matter if you write code to implement dual-wielding if it never gets accepted to the repository. Of course, you're always welcome to make a DCSS fork and host your own server.

The Gyre and gimble unrand is there essentially as a joke about implementing won't-do, and maybe also to satisfy in some small way those poor souls who mistakenly think it's a good idea. You'd have to ask wheals for sure.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 17:30

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

gammafunk wrote:The Gyre and gimble unrand is there essentially as a joke about implementing won't-do, and maybe also to satisfy in some small way those poor souls who mistakenly think it's a good idea. You'd have to ask wheals for sure.


And, even then, it's not "dual wielding" in the way anyone means it. It's just a two handed weapon with goofy flavour.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 17:42

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

gammafunk wrote:The Gyre and gimble unrand is there essentially as a joke about implementing won't-do
looks like we can add it to ??implemented_badforum now too

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 03:13

Re: Possible Dual-Wielding Proposal

Final proposal:

-No 1.5 hand weapons.
-Both weapons use the minimum of your dual-wielding skill and weapon skill, and have +2 effective attack delay. Minimum attack delay doesn't change, but takes longer to reach.
-You off-hand weapon has its overall attack delay multiplied by 1.5, rounded down. This is calculated after everything in the previous point.
-No using unarmed as your main weapon. Possibly make off-hand punches count as an off-hand weapon that requires the dual-wield skill.
-Dual-wielding provides a small shield value.
-Weapons of freezing can turn certain non-living enemies into superconductors, causing electrical damage to pass through them and hit other enemies. This has nothing to do with dual-wielding but I wanted to put it somewhere.

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