Top 10 (at least 10) terrible race-god combos

[Pollen_Golem]

Xom is not allowed. Too easy.

My picks:

1. Troll of Gozag
2. Deep Dwarf of Zin
3. Ghoul of Gozag
4. Naga of Qazlal
5. Spriggan of Chei
6. Deep Elf of Trog
7. Troll of Vehumet
8. Mummy of Jiyva
9. Minotaur of Sif Muna
10. Felid of Okawaru

[radinms]

felid of qazlal, chei
spriggan of qazlal,chei

i think Mi Sif or Troll Vehu is viable because you are Mi or Troll

[Arrhythmia]

deep dwarf of anything but makh, post-end TSO, ru, trog, and MAYBE nemelex

[radinms]

DD kiku,Ely is ok

[emikaela]

fe of oka is probably ok. no gifts, but the abilities are still very useful. vampire of gozag is supposed to be hard too.

[radinms]

Vp gozag WAS viable and now IS NOT viable because gozag was changed...

[CanOfWorms]

felid of qazlal, chei
spriggan of qazlal,chei

I did SpEn^Q once, made it to Zot:5 before dying to a poor decision (berserked Killer Klown.) It was definitely more fun than the VpNe^S I ran for the 0.16 tourney (got bored and suicide-tabbed myself in Snake.) I might try to ascend a FeEn^Q sometime

[Sandman25]

I guess the real intent is "the worst god for species" otherwise we will have DD for all 10 positions as Arrhythmia wrote.

[Sandman25]

So here is my list
TrMo of Gozag (Mo bonus is wasted and you will starve anyway)
DEWz of Trog (DEBe is not that different from other Be)
FeVM of TSO (nothing but poison and you are weak for melee)
OpWz of Qazlal (MP will end, RMsl is wasted and you are weak for melee)
NaWz of Qazlal (MP will end, RMsl is wasted and you cannot run away sometimes)
MiWz/SpHu/HOWr/OgEn of Chei (the only chance to kill OP species is to catch them early with something like Grinder).
MuEn of Chei (good luck running away after hexes fail or good luck fighting as book background with rF-)

[Magipi]

Anything of Chei.

This is more than 10, but hey, I'm an overachiever.

[Pollen_Golem]

I guess the real intent is "the worst god for species" otherwise we will have DD for all 10 positions as Arrhythmia wrote.

But Zin is there only one that neither provides healing nor allows vampirism of any kind.

OpWz of Qazlal (MP will end, RMsl is wasted and you are weak for melee)

That doesn't sound so bad. 'MP will end' and 'weak for melee' is expected for wizards, and boohoo you don't have to recast RMsl

[Sandman25]

OpWz of Qazlal (MP will end, RMsl is wasted and you are weak for melee)

That doesn't sound so bad. 'MP will end' and 'weak for melee' is expected for wizards, and boohoo you don't have to recast RMsl

Yes, it's still possible to win of course, unlike your DD of Zin.

[Pollen_Golem]

Besides, you get immunity to your own Mephitic Cloud, which ought to compensate for the loss of not having to recast RMsl.

[The Ferret]

I feel like Fe^Oka should be pretty strong, Felid unarmed + Heroism + Finesse sounds pretty strong. Probably not as strong as Fe^Trog, but Trog > Okawaru in general if you're exclusively looking at divine abilities.

[tasonir]

felid of chei is very, very strong: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 155739.txt

My spriggan of chei died on the orb run, but whatever, it's powerful, I swear: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 032851.txt note that training unarmed on a race with -2 UC is probably stupid, but I like it as an interesting conduct. It does notably bypass the normal spriggan restrictions on being unable to use big weapons, though. Still, I'm not necessarily recommending that

Troll of Gozag would be funny (in a theoretical sense, not that it'd be funny to play) - I think if you managed to get a food shop called you might have enough rations to last a while, but you'd basically be unable to ever call anything that wasn't a food shop.

Troll of Vehumet isn't totally terrible, it would be a good choice if you wanted to have a truly reaver playstyle, with conjurations and malee both strong. But that playstyle is rather redundant, and not really worthwhile, like this combo is.

I think I'll add Gozag troll to my list of funny conducts to try. I haven't done terribly well with my attempts at getting haunt summoners going.

[duvessa]

my picks:

1. Naga of Chei
2. Naga of Chei
3. Naga of Chei
4. Naga of Chei
5. Naga of Chei
6. Naga of Chei
7. Naga of Chei
8. Naga of Chei
9. Naga of Chei
10. Naga of Chei
11. Naga of Chei

[tasonir]

my picks:

1. Naga of Chei
2. Naga of Chei
3. Naga of Chei
4. Naga of Chei
5. Naga of Chei
6. Naga of Chei
7. Naga of Chei
8. Naga of Chei
9. Naga of Chei
10. Naga of Chei
11. Naga of Chei

Killer "This is Spinal Tap" reference, bro

[Sandman25]

I suspect Na of Qazlal is harder than Na of Chei for me. I train Stealth early as Na and Chei boosts it too.

[triorph]

Vp^Qaz
Mi^Veh

[Sphara]

Just play a fucking mummy. You do not need a background to understand.

[tabstorm]

Sometimes I wonder: What apts would mummies need to be average?

[tasonir]

They would be pretty decent with 0's, imho. rF- isn't that bad once you can offset it, and there isn't much fire damage early on other than a chance that an orc wizard puffs you. Not being able to use potions is pretty bad but if you have decent magic resistance it isn't too crippling, and mummies get +5 MR per level. Then you get rpois/rN+++/all the rest of undead stuff, so you're about average power. Loss of transmutations/regen spell hurts my playstyle considerably, of course, but you can just get a weapon and an amulet of regen.

If you think the downsides are still a bit worse than the gains, you could go to +1's, but going any higher is far too much, imho. I assume we'd change their exp aptitude to 0 as well (it's currently -1).

[Sphara]

"and there isn't much fire damage early on other than a chance that an orc wizard puffs you."

This is pretty much the thing that kills mummy characters. That and confusion spell. Oh yes and no potions!

It is the worst race to start. Even formicids have easier earlygame. Jesus fucking christ formicids have infinite killholes! Mummies have... nothing (well, if nothing excludes easier encounters with Menkaure and Grinder then I may stand corrected).

[Sandman25]

Even formicids have easier earlygame.

Are you serious here? Fo have very easy game, they don't die to opening a door, for example. Shafting, kill holes. Not many characters have known potion of haste or scroll of blink/teleport at this point and even then there are not many of them to survive several unlucky encounters.

[Sphara]

Even formicids have easier earlygame.

Are you serious here? Fo have very easy game, they don't die to opening a door, for example. Shafting, kill holes. Not many characters have known potion of haste or scroll of blink/teleport at this point and even then there are not many of them to survive several unlucky encounters.

I think I just stated that formicids have easier earlygame than mummies. If you are making a statement that formicids are going to have easy earlygame in general, go for it.
I sure as hell won't agree. They are burly but deprivation of translocations and hasting are not compensated by killholing and omg.. shafting.

[Sandman25]

I think I just stated that formicids have easier earlygame than mummies. If you are making a statement that formicids are going to have easy earlygame in general, go for it.
I sure as hell won't agree. They are burly but deprivation of translocations and hasting are not compensated by killholing and omg.. shafting.

Don't forget about mapping. It's great you can approach an enemy with a clear path for retreat. I guess we can just agree to disagree here, I rate early game Fo higher than Op/Mu/Fe/VS/Ko/Ha/HE. Maybe I am missing some species in the list.

[tasonir]

Maybe I've just been lucky on my mummies but I haven't really died to many puffs of flame, I usually just die to overall weakness from not having many skills trained. Agreed confusion is rough, but if you eventually find a ring of magic resistance, you're mostly set there too. This won't help you until you actually have the ring, of course...

[WingedEspeon]

Xom is not allowed. Too easy.

My picks:
4. Naga of Qazlal
10. Felid of Okawaru

IMO Felid of oka is probably actually better than felid of trog. oka still allows spells, and if you way to use UC herism is a HUGE boost. Heroism also give +5 stealth. Naga of Qazlal actually sound pretty good. You have good invo apt and Naga of Qazlal hasa good HP pool for when you are force to fight. Just stair dance a lot. Also the sh is nice.

DD is also too easy imo. yes zin isprobably pretty bad because of the necro ban, but anting without good reliable healing will be bad.

mine in no particular order:

Troll of gozag
vampire of gozag
ghoul of gozag
mummy of jivya
sprigan of chei
felid of chei
ghoul of jivya (you still lose a lot of stuff and dont get the muts even if rot is no big deal.)




Sprigan of qazlal acualy sounds good, just kite and let clouds kill things

Having won DE of trog, it isn't that bad as it is still trog with full armour slots, kinda like troll of Vehumet and minotaur of Silf are still good because troll and minotaur are good even when godless. Just train thrown at some point.

[tasonir]

imho the reason felid of trog is so strong isn't because your damage is increased (which heroism can also do) but because

#1) Berserk gives you so much hp you're almost like a normal hp race (effectively you're -10% hp), and heroism doesn't give you any bonus hp.
#2) If +50% hp isn't enough to beat the fight you're in, you can summon 2-3 or 5 brothers in arms and completely avoid (personally) engaging the threat. This would normally be very expensive in piety, but since felids receive no gifts, you are drowning in piety anyways.

#1 is a nice boost, but #2 is really why felid berserkers are easy, if you are very slow and careful with them. They aren't very good if you like mindlessly tabbing forever, though.

[WingedEspeon]

But, but ... Oka lets you use UC+statue form!

[duvessa]

This would normally be very expensive in piety, but since felids receive no gifts, you are drowning in piety anyways.

[WingedEspeon]

[Mu] It is the worst race to start. Even formicids have easier earlygame. Jesus fucking christ formicids have infinite killholes! \

Haveing won both Fo and Mu Fi and Gl respectively,I found that Fo early ame is strong. Fast levelling helps a lot, and antennae help with fighting as good times a lot. IMO Fo has a strong early game, nothing like Mu...

[radinms]

Mummy has a poison immunity so early game is pretty easy. Try it.

[Cheibrodos]

Sp of Chei was better than a lot of other things of Chei. Try it out, it's fun.

[duvessa]

Mummy has a poison immunity so early game is pretty easy. Try it.

IME not dying randomly to adder poison is made up for by dying randomly to confuse or flaming ammo

[Pollen_Golem]

This would normally be very expensive in piety, but since felids receive no gifts, you are drowning in piety anyways.

Really? Is this actually how gifts work? When you receive a gift, some piety is deducted, as if you just used an active ability?

[duvessa]

This would normally be very expensive in piety, but since felids receive no gifts, you are drowning in piety anyways.

Really? Is this actually how gifts work? When you receive a gift, some piety is deducted, as if you just used an active ability?

no

[tasonir]

When you get a gift, you get a gift timeout. So let's say you have 150 piety, gift timeout is 0. You kill something, get a gift, you're now at 150 piety, gift timeout is 30. The next time you kill something that would give you piety, you don't go to 151/30, you go 150/29. After a couple more kills enough time has passed that your piety decayed to 149, your timeout is 15. Eventually you hit 147 piety 0 timeout, and can get another gift again. If you don't get a gift right away, your piety will go up to 148+ etc.

So duvessa is right that it isn't technically that simple, but effectively yes, getting a gift lowers your piety gain for a while, it just takes your future piety rather than your current piety.

All numbers approximate and made up, but that's the basic flow. I don't think it's possible to ever hit 200 piety on trog with a race that gets gifts - felids could. You can summon a LOT of brothers in arms before 200 piety falls all the way to 150.

But, but ... Oka lets you use UC+statue form!

True, and I've won a cheibriados felid for this reason

[duvessa]

When you get a gift, you get a gift timeout. So let's say you have 150 piety, gift timeout is 0. You kill something, get a gift, you're now at 150 piety, gift timeout is 30. The next time you kill something that would give you piety, you don't go to 151/30, you go 150/29. After a couple more kills enough time has passed that your piety decayed to 149, your timeout is 15. Eventually you hit 147 piety 0 timeout, and can get another gift again. If you don't get a gift right away, your piety will go up to 148+ etc.

So duvessa is right that it isn't technically that simple, but effectively yes, getting a gift lowers your piety gain for a while, it just takes your future piety rather than your current piety.

All numbers approximate and made up, but that's the basic flow. I don't think it's possible to ever hit 200 piety on trog with a race that gets gifts - felids could.

no, that isn't how it works either
when you do an action that would give a point of piety on gifting gods other than jiyva/nemelex/sif:
chance of actually gaining the point of piety without gift timeout:
<100 current piety: 100%
<160 current piety: 66%
<200 current piety: 44%
chance of actually gaining the point of piety with gift timeout:
<100 current piety: 25%
<160 current piety: 16.5%
<200 current piety: 11%
chance of decrementing gift timeout, if you have it:
<100 current piety: 100%
<160 current piety: 100%
<200 current piety: 100%
because gift timeout is decremented no matter what, at >=100 and especially >=160 piety you lose much less piety via gift timeout than you think you do

stop believing the learndb, it is shit and lies

[tasonir]

Ok, so instead of blocking 100% of piety gain it blocks 75%. I admit that's definitely a significant difference, but it still largely works the way I said - after a gift, your future piety gain is decreased by 75% until you work off your debt for the gift. Felids never do this, and so you gain 4 times the piety of other races (while they are in gift timeout). I'm not sure how hard it would be to model how often you're in gift timeout, it'd depend on how much piety you spend, the rate at which you kill things, what actually spawns in your game, etc etc. But from playing a felid of trog the difference is large and noticeable. Felid of trog is easy because brothers in arms will clear anything for you and you can use them really, really often.

Faith or guardian spirit amulets are tier 1 choices - I like spirit because your piety is already extremely high and your hp are so very low, but I wouldn't criticize someone if they wanted faith.

[duvessa]

Ok, so instead of blocking 100% of piety gain it blocks 75%. I admit that's definitely a significant difference, but it still largely works the way I said

no
no it doesn't
as i just explained to you, the way you said it COMPLETELY IGNORES the fact that gift timeout is still decremented when piety taper stops, or would have stopped, the piety gain
with 20 gift timeout and <100 piety, you should expect to lose 15 piety
with 20 gift timeout and >=160 piety, you should expect to lose 6.6 piety

[onget]

All weak combo in the early game