Buff Kiku

[lobf]

Hey y'all-

I mentioned this in ##crawl-dev the other day, but figured I may as well encourage some discussion here on the subject too.

Now that raised zombies / skeletons disappear after a period of time, Kiku is significantly weaker. I end up burning through tons of piety summoning and re-summoning corpses now, since they don't last me as long, especially with resting and exploring.

If this design choice stays, kiku needs a buff of some sort. The most obvious idea would be to remove / significntly reduce piety costs for summoning corpses from Kiku.


Since we're talking about it, though, why make corpses / skeletons disappear? No other undead in the dungeon disappear after a while, why do mine?

Anyways, thoughts?

[Rast]

Just combine Kiku and Yred already.

The hardest part would be figuring out the new name.

[archaeo]

Since we're talking about it, though, why make corpses / skeletons disappear? No other undead in the dungeon disappear after a while, why do mine?

Having permanent allies is brokenly powerful, especially for 1 MP a pop. That said, I feel like maybe a good Kiku buff would be making your undead allies permanent? Would that be broken? Probably?

In any case, making them go away over time is just a balance decision.

[lobf]

Since we're talking about it, though, why make corpses / skeletons disappear? No other undead in the dungeon disappear after a while, why do mine?

Having permanent allies is brokenly powerful, especially for 1 MP a pop. That said, I feel like maybe a good Kiku buff would be making your undead allies permanent? Would that be broken? Probably?

Making your undead allies permanent would be a good incentive to go Kiku as a necromancer. Would that apply to Simulacra though? That would probably be way too strong.

In any case, making them go away over time is just a balance decision.

Right, and it makes some sense to me. I just doubt the goal there was to sort of cripple Kiku as well.

[archaeo]

Right, and it makes some sense to me. I just doubt the goal there was to sort of cripple Kiku as well.

I think most devs regard Kiku as powerful enough to handle getting a nerf, but as with all changes, disappearing undead allies is still just in trunk. I suspect that if a ton of Kiku players report feeling like they've been hugely nerfed, and then the devs play it themselves and agree, it'll change. Gotta playtest, right?

[Lasty]

I don't feel like Kiku has been nerfed to the point where it's not an amazing god. I don't even particularly feel like timers on zombies/skeletons is a big nerf of those spells. I don't believe any action needs to be taken.

[Berder]

The expiration is a big nerf to necromancy in general, because you no longer can carry around an army of zombies with you. However, Kiku's abilities are not much affected because he delivers corpses right when you need them.

[Sprucery]

Incidentally, my latest Orb run was the easiest ever, it was with a MuVM of Kiku. My ascension was mainly disturbed by "You feel more experienced" messages.

(Of course I was just lucky not to see Pan lords, I don't think my undead armies killed any of those behind my back...)

[Magipi]

Having permanent allies is brokenly powerful, especially for 1 MP a pop.

This is ridiculous. Crawl had permanent skeletons and zombies for 20 years, and clearly there was nothing broken about them. Kiku was a strong god, but not broken. Necromancer was a good background, but really nothing special.

This change is just another totally pointless development. But at least it does not ruin the game (like shadow traps).

[Sprucery]

I'd say the spell Animate Skeleton was (is in 0.16) a bit too powerful for a level 1 spell. At least Kiku corpse delivery costs piety.

[archaeo]

This is ridiculous. Crawl had permanent skeletons and zombies for 20 years, and clearly there was nothing broken about them. Kiku was a strong god, but not broken. Necromancer was a good background, but really nothing special.

This change is just another totally pointless development. But at least it does not ruin the game (like shadow traps).

Deterministic energy (<0.6). Strength having no effect on spellcasting penalties (<0.6). Dex's effect on EV having a hard cap. Strategic spells (<0.6, <0.8). Very high-resolution knowledge of all monster positions in radius ~30 (<0.6). Ability to arbitrarily target out-of-LOS monster movement (<0.11). Carrying capacity (<0.15). Inventory destruction. Non-Wn background randomization. Many/most gods taking non-corpse sacrifices. Noise penetrating walls (<0.8). Using different geometries for LOS than for ranges and movement (<0.7). Using different geometries for LOS and ranges than for movement (<0.17).

Crawl has had lots of broken, unbalanced things for decades. It's not a "pointless development," it just takes the devs time to get around to things, since, you know, they're doing this for free in their spare time.

[lobf]

Why was this moved? I don't think this belongs in the "random" section...

[twelwe]

1. this isn`t the `random` section
2. suggestion threads that offer little more than `xxx deserves a buff/nerf hey anyone got ideas??` don`t belong in gdd

[Berder]

The real problem with old Animate Skeleton and Animate Dead was that they meant armored melee tabbers could become stronger by having a little magic. Some people hate casting spells, therefore it had to go. The balance question was secondary. (Necromancer was always one of the weaker backgrounds, and now it's even weaker than it was, so much for balance)

[archaeo]

The real problem with old Animate Skeleton and Animate Dead was that they meant armored melee tabbers could become stronger by having a little magic. Some people hate casting spells, therefore it had to go. The balance question was secondary. (Necromancer was always one of the weaker backgrounds, and now it's even weaker than it was, so much for balance)

yes, the devs gathered around their wicked cauldron and asked themselves, "How can we ruin the lives of those pathetic magic users?"

[Sprucery]

The real problem with old Animate Skeleton and Animate Dead was that they meant armored melee tabbers could become stronger by having a little magic.

But they still can!

[Berder]

The real problem with old Animate Skeleton and Animate Dead was that they meant armored melee tabbers could become stronger by having a little magic.

But they still can!

They've been talking about "fixing" that by turning charms into consumables or by splitting them into different spell schools so there's less incentive to get them. Or just otherwise nerfing them. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15783.

[Berder]

The real problem with old Animate Skeleton and Animate Dead was that they meant armored melee tabbers could become stronger by having a little magic. Some people hate casting spells, therefore it had to go. The balance question was secondary. (Necromancer was always one of the weaker backgrounds, and now it's even weaker than it was, so much for balance)

yes, the devs gathered around their wicked cauldron and asked themselves, "How can we ruin the lives of those pathetic magic users?"

You laugh but just look at some of the recent changes in 0.17:

• less early game MP
• undead expiration
• enslave removal
• poison chunk removal
• invisibility nerf
• removal of flight spell

[duvessa]

good god

[archaeo]

Berder I was there when you had this same rant on tileschat, and it turns out I continue to disbelieve the idea that MarvinPA, et al. are conspiring to ruin magic, or that any of those changes really move the needle very much on how good/not good it is.

But who cares what I think, what do the numbers say Berder? The numbers wouldn't lie to us!

[Berder]

Berder I was there when you had this same rant on tileschat, and it turns out I continue to disbelieve the idea that MarvinPA, et al. are conspiring to ruin magic, or that any of those changes really move the needle very much on how good/not good it is.

But who cares what I think, what do the numbers say Berder? The numbers wouldn't lie to us!

How many changes can you name in 0.17 that specifically harmed melee and not magic?

[archaeo]

None, because I'm not keeping score about an illusory conspiracy (and to be totally honest the only commit I can remember off the top of my head is squarelos).

e: and now my 400th post is about the anti-magic illuminati, thanks Berder.

[Berder]

None

Editorializing aside, that's right, none.

[archaeo]

jet fuel can't melt steel melee users

[duvessa]

jet fuel can't melt stale memes

[Sandman25]

To be fair, devs removed MP cap and added Singularity.

[n1000]

melee was brutally nerfed when someone ruined ctrl+attack while confused

[KoboldLord]

Hey guys! Did you know that Kiku has an activated ability that spawns a whole new stack of corpses? It's really cool. When you don't have any zombies, you just use a tiny amount of piety that has virtually no other use and you suddenly have a whole army of zombies to use up! You can fill the screen with zombies just before every major fight and still have enough corpses to use for miasma clouds and the torment invocation when the situation calls for those things. Of all the builds who have reason to complain about the Animate Foo nerf, Kiku builds are pretty close to last on the list.

[Sandman25]

melee was brutally nerfed when someone ruined ctrl+attack while confused

Confused casters can't cast spells at all.

[duvessa]

How many changes can you name in 0.17 that specifically harmed melee and not magic?

also, trog and okawaru are pretty bad for the "magic" berder is thinking of, and the piety reduction was a pretty huge nerf to both

[Berder]

To be fair, devs removed MP cap and added Singularity.

Removing the MP cap is the same change that reduced early game MP, so I can't credit them with that. The early game MP reduction matters a lot more than the cap removal. Singularity, alright.

melee was brutally nerfed when someone ruined ctrl+attack while confused

Very minor - plus they also made axes cleave while confused, a buff.

also, trog and okawaru are pretty bad for the "magic" berder is thinking of, and the piety reduction was a pretty huge nerf to both

That's a decent point, although okawaru prayer removal was in 0.16, not 0.17-a trunk. Note that reaverb did apparently increase Trog piety gain and reduce piety decay to compensate, according to the changelog. However, I understand it does end up as a nerf.

Still, on balance the list of what was done to harm magic is a lot longer.

[bel]

I didn't read the whole thread, but Kiku is the last god to need a buff. Receive corpses + animate dead or simulacrum is still good. Not to mention pain brand and spellbook gifts.

In fact, receive corpses has relatively become even better because of the zombie-expiring change, because Kiku worshippers can always get corpses (even in Slime Pits, for example), while other god-worshippers have to kill something first.

Edit: Just saw KoboldLord's post, which says the same thing.

[tasonir]

To be fair, devs removed MP cap and added Singularity.

Only useful post in this thread. Removing the MP cap is awesome, I'll have to play around with that. Wonder how many +9 mana rings I can find on my current octopode.

About the only "magic nerf" mentioned that I actually care about is the removal of the flight spell, which just highlights how annoying water is. The problem there is more water than flight, though.

KoboldLord: But if we use piety for corpses to raise, how will you get 300 ac from embrace?

Edit: Because of the above post being terse, it might seem hostile/angry. I assure it you all it is intended to be humorous and I love each and every one of you.

[PleasingFungus]

How many changes can you name in 0.17 that specifically harmed melee and not magic?

[mps]

It's not a conspiracy, it's just a case of poor shared analysis. Remember how people were saying that the ability to lure monsters upstairs into a crowd of zombies meant that zombies were overpowered, as opposed to, say, an instance of bad monster AI?

Anyway, these kinds of details can hardly be expected to have an easily perceived effect on game balance. For example, remember that time they doubled player melee damage during the .16 tournament and no one could quite put their finger on what the difference was? Crawl is a game renowned for its randomness.

[dowan]

How many changes can you name in 0.17 that specifically harmed melee and not magic?

I need to report a bug on this, my DEVM had NO melee skill whatsoever, and the entropy weaver still applied the corrosion status to me, and it vastly decreased my AC!

Obviously the entropy weaver's melee character detection code is broken.

[Sar]

but DE is a pure caster, if something is close enough to hit you you've made a mistake in your positioning

just nuke enemies with your powerful spells

also consider using Necromutation to increase your total AC

[Sar]

also I've played a char of Kiku soon after the nerf and it felt as brokenly powerful as usual to me

[Sandman25]

also I've played a char of Kiku soon after the nerf and it felt as brokenly powerful as usual to me

I think the character was broken due to Ds mutations and loot. AC 55 in robe just cannot be right.

[Sar]

I didn't have these in early game though?

[Sandman25]

I didn't have these in early game though?

Oh, you mean it was brokenly powerful before/in Lair?

[Sar]

Yeah, I didn't notice a lot of difference. The one difference was that I would aa and zd every time I entered a new D/Lair level before the change, just to have a bunch of friendlies. After the change, this doesn't really work, gotta make zombies when you need them. Which is a nerf, but not a huge one.

[dowan]

but DE is a pure caster, if something is close enough to hit you you've made a mistake in your positioning

just nuke enemies with your powerful spells

also consider using Necromutation to increase your total AC

Of course I didn't stand next to enemies like a dirty unwashed melee fighter or something, but some of those jerks had bows and stuff. Necromut would only have masked the bug a little bit, my AC still would have been reduced, even though entropy weavers are specifically mentioned by the devs to specifically harm melee fighters only, and not mages!

[Sandman25]

It looks like I am not the only one who replies seriously to sarcasm.

[dowan]

Not only that, but for some reason if I post too soon after reading your posts, I sort of adopt your grammatical syntax.

My only language is english, but sometimes it looks like it's my second language, because of the weird syntax.
The same thing happens to me when I travel to other countries. When I went to Belgium, I came back talking like a dutchman for a couple of weeks. I kind of like the way dutch and german people speak english...

[Sandman25]

Not only that, but for some reason if I post too soon after reading your posts, I sort of adopt your grammatical syntax.

Sorry, I don't see it (you use too few parentheses and smiles)

[Zooty]

I know discussion has already drifted to more important stuff by I have to point out one thing.

Since we're talking about it, though, why make corpses / skeletons disappear? No other undead in the dungeon disappear after a while, why do mine?

Spectral things and simulacra were already temporary, so it makes sense that zombies and skeletons which are made by lower level spells would also be temporary.

[ZipZipskins]

When I went to Belgium, I came back talking like a dutchman for a couple of weeks.

like a fleming you mean?

[dowan]

Err... I guess, if those are the Belgians who speak dutch, rather than french...

[ZipZipskins]

they are, and they don't identify as dutch

flemish (which is a regional dutch dialect) is what they call their language, and flemish is what they call their culture

wallons are the belgians who speak a french dialect