Nerf melee brainstorming

[Sar]

I am having a hard time thinking of a player who's gotten far enough to fight an alich without realizing daggers kind of suck for melee.

[Sandman25]

I guess you have never tried to melee Boggarts with dagger.

[Sar]

I did (probably) but boggarts aren't really liches or presented as such.

  Code:

A boggart.
A malevolent and dangerous little sprite. The shadowy illusions it summons may
not be real, but they'll kill you all the same, if you don't get their master
first.

  Code:

Lich

A powerful wizard who has learned to cheat death itself, a lich is a skeletal,
desiccated corpse kept intact by a mighty exercise of dark magic! This undead
creature is quite powerful and is best avoided by all but the most skilled!

Though obviously I just read the wiki.

[Sandman25]

I don't see any mention of HP. It is unclear from those descriptions that ALich has 5+ times more HP. Spriggan Defenders/Air Mages/Berserkers are little too but their average HP is only twice lower than one of ALich.
Also it is unclear that Spriggan Air Mage can deal 3d19 Lightning Bolt while ALich can deal... Wait, how much damage can ALich deal with Lightning Bolt? I have no idea. Should I use my last scroll of blinking if I lack rElec and have "only" 130 HP remaining?

[duvessa]

...Are you trying to derail your own thread?

[Sandman25]

...Are you trying to derail your own thread?

It is somewhat related to melee, melee characters have the hardest time vs unknown monsters indeed.
I don't see posts with ideas how melee can be nerfed in this thread anyway (except first post).

[dowan]

Well, the very easiest way to nerf melee is pretty obvious: lower its damage.

However, do you think the game is too easy for a melee character? Or do you think the game is too difficult for a conjurations heavy character? Or do you think the game should require more diverse tactics of melee characters?

I suppose with your killhole example you're thinking that a blasty conjurer can't usually just hang out in a killhole killing endless waves of enemies the way a melee bruiser with good defenses can. So maybe along that line of thinking extended melee could tire you out or something, making you less effective if you don't break enemies up into smaller packs. However that's essentially just a seperate mana bar for melee, which is a huge change from the current game.

[Sandman25]

Well, the very easiest way to nerf melee is pretty obvious: lower its damage.

However, do you think the game is too easy for a melee character? Or do you think the game is too difficult for a conjurations heavy character? Or do you think the game should require more diverse tactics of melee characters?

I suppose with your killhole example you're thinking that a blasty conjurer can't usually just hang out in a killhole killing endless waves of enemies the way a melee bruiser with good defenses can. So maybe along that line of thinking extended melee could tire you out or something, making you less effective if you don't break enemies up into smaller packs. However that's essentially just a seperate mana bar for melee, which is a huge change from the current game.

Melee character is too easy but I am not sure decreasing damage will help much, it's possible to win a NaBe with spear without berserking. Main problem IMHO is unlimited ability to attack and huge defense. I play another game title also and there characters spend energy to attack with spells/ranged/melee, eventually your XL 30 (max) character can die to a pack of rats if you never rest but I am not sure how it can be adapted to crawl.

[dowan]

Another way to nerf melee would be to include more enemies like the orb spider, and the siren/merfolk avatar. They're certainly not easier for a melee character! (not fun, please don't do this)

I guess to me, the main thing that contributes to melee "easiness" is that melee characters have less skills to train, and therefore, they are better at those skills. Magey types still have to train all the same skills melee characters do, plus they have to train spellcasting and their relevant spell schools.

[Sandman25]

We have Sap, -Wiz, silence and mana draining for casters, how about similar things for melee? Something like corrosion but without being attacked:
1) every time you try to hit the monster with melee attack, your slaying is decreased by 1 for N turns
2) every time you try to hit the monster with melee attack, your AC is decreased by 1 for N turns
3) every time you try to hit the monster with melee attack, your EV is decreased by 1 for N turns
4) every time you try to hit the monster with melee attack, your melee attack delay is increased by 1 aut for N turns
5) every time you try to hit the monster with melee attack, your accuracy is decreased by 5% for N turns
6) every time you hit the monster with melee attack, your current weapon gets temporary -3 enchantment for N turns (yes, it means you would want to have several weapons)

[bel]

To Sandman25:
It's not clear to me where this thread is going. You said above that it started as a bit of a joke, but you are also making suggestions in earnest. Not good to mix the two. As I said, imho, melee isn't overpowered, so there is nothing to fix.

[Sandman25]

It's not clear to me where this thread is going. You said above that it started as a bit of a joke, but you are also making suggestions in earnest. Not good to mix the two.

Why? I would be happy if melee was nerfed but I am too smart and realize it is not going to happen. So it is both a joke and serious business.

PS. Also I was interested to see reaction of other players on melee nerf.

[archaeo]

PS. Also I was interested to see reaction of other players on melee nerf.

This is an awfully roundabout way of saying "I wanted to start a tedious fight on the Internet."

[mps]

PS. Also I was interested to see reaction of other players on melee nerf.

This is an awfully roundabout way of saying "I wanted to start a tedious fight on the Internet."

It must be hard for you having to read all these tedious fights on the internet all the time.

[Rast]

To Sandman25:
It's not clear to me where this thread is going

It isn't going anywhere; it's already here in CYC.

I liked the part with the fsims of +9 holy wrath top-of-class weapons, as if they are somehow relevant to a ranged vs melee discussion.

[bel]

There is something to the point of melee vs magic, so I don't think this thread was a waste of time totally. At least it wasn't for me.

Also: https://xkcd.com/386/

[Sandman25]

PS. Also I was interested to see reaction of other players on melee nerf.

This is an awfully roundabout way of saying "I wanted to start a tedious fight on the Internet."

This is not how I see it. I disagree with some corner stones in crawl philosophy, some of them are related to melee. I am not sure why (maybe I am not that smart after all) but I still hope that crawl can change its direction and become more user-friendly, all those wrong corner stones will be thrown away eventually. I guess everyone knows a myth about boiling water and frogs, right? But more likely I will stop posting at 7777 messages and will try again to leave the forum.

Edit. Oh, current number 7666 is nice too

[tasonir]

There is already the weak status, which I believe is something like -25% damage while you have it? I believe it applies to melee and ranged, but I could be wrong.

Having a -1 slaying per attack is fairly similar to weak, just that it would start low and build up. I wouldn't mind seeing weak applied to more monsters, I think it's currently only Orange Demons? Maybe someone else.

[Tressol]

Melee overpowered? I have a much easier time with casters, and I don't play a lot of hunters... It seems like a "pure" melee guy just has very few options if they meet something potentially scary, and since Crawl combat is so swingy (the other day, I had a melee guy, in plate, take a Spiny Frog down and lose ~15-20% hp, and then another Spiny dealt ~65-70%), and there are so many (potential) fights in Crawl, the dice will eventually swing against you and you will largely end up dead. Is it easy, in the sense that it's relatively simple? Sure, I guess, though positioning is important and often overlooked. I think that the "more mobs show up and you're low on MP" scenario is not so much a problem as some might think - in most cases, some of your spells are disables/escapes, and failing that, the enemy is at the edge of your LoS, so you have time to read a scroll to get out if all else fails. If Mr Melee is in a though fight and more mobs show up, and any of them have ranged attacks, he could quite easily be dead before a teleport kicks in... Or, he teleports into another semi-dangerous situation but he's still injured from the previous fight. Also, Channeling exists in the form of Staff/Ball/Sif for MP but not so much for HP. Also, potions of Heal Wounds taper off hard in the late game in terms of usefulness, while potions of magic (though rare) can generally see you through, especially with the aforementioned escapes/disables.

Of course, if you blend some spellcasting into the mix and lighten up the armor a bit, maybe get a little Int, you can cure a lot of these problems, but it seems like we are talking about a "pure" tank.

[archaeo]

It must be hard for you having to read all these tedious fights on the internet all the time.

It definitely is; I find online civility to be incredibly lacking. It's especially galling in the context of the Tavern, where we're mostly grown-ups and should know better than to have passive-aggressive slapfights about a fancy elf & dwarf game. I also totally realize the irony/hypocrisy of me saying that now.

This is not how I see it. I disagree with some corner stones in crawl philosophy, some of them are related to melee. I am not sure why (maybe I am not that smart after all) but I still hope that crawl can change its direction and become more user-friendly, all those wrong corner stones will be thrown away eventually. I guess everyone knows a myth about boiling water and frogs, right? But more likely I will stop posting at 7777 messages and will try again to leave the forum.

Who's the frog here? What's the boiling water?

[Arrhythmia]

the Tavern, where we're mostly grown-ups

lol

[Sandman25]

I think that the "more mobs show up and you're low on MP" scenario is not so much a problem as some might think - in most cases, some of your spells are disables/escapes, and failing that, the enemy is at the edge of your LoS, so you have time to read a scroll to get out if all else fails.

Are you sure you are talking about casters here? Blink/Dazzling Spray/Mephitic Cloud/Conjure Flame etc. can be used by melee characters too and don't care about spell power (Conjure Flame technically depends but it is usually enough to make 1 tile gap). Also note I am talking about play styles, not about backgrounds.

Who's the frog here? What's the boiling water?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

[mps]

It must be hard for you having to read all these tedious fights on the internet all the time.

It definitely is; I find online civility to be incredibly lacking. It's especially galling in the context of the Tavern, where we're mostly grown-ups and should know better than to have passive-aggressive slapfights about a fancy elf & dwarf game. I also totally realize the irony/hypocrisy of me saying that now.

Kind of hard to get a handle on a perspective that says talking about the game is somehow illegitimate in the first place and certainly arguing about it is totally out of bounds, but nevertheless scolds everyone for not doing it civilly enough. What's the point in staking out a position as the guy who doesn't post anything and frankly considers doing so déclassé?

[Tressol]

I think that the "more mobs show up and you're low on MP" scenario is not so much a problem as some might think - in most cases, some of your spells are disables/escapes, and failing that, the enemy is at the edge of your LoS, so you have time to read a scroll to get out if all else fails.

Are you sure you are talking about casters here? Blink/Dazzling Spray/Mephitic Cloud/Conjure Flame etc. can be used by melee characters too and don't care about spell power (Conjure Flame technically depends but it is usually enough to make 1 tile gap). Also note I am talking about play styles, not about backgrounds.

Umm... If they are wearing actual heavy armor (as has been suggested/implied throughout the thread as the "easy mode" thing to do), then they can't do these things reliably, at least not without spending a bunch of skill/int, and definitely not while worshiping Trog (who is supposed to be King OP, I guess). The guy who wants to use a vampiric axe and wear CPM probably won't invest much in spellcasting skills...

I pointed out in the very post you quoted how these issues can be relieved by hybridizing - yes, more options is generally better. I thought that the point/problem was supposed to be that it was optimal to spend basically all experience in weapon skill/armor/fighting (and maybe dodging? I don't know). Perhaps I don't understand the problem?

[Category]

It would appear to me that crawl is designed with the intention of melee combat being the default means of doing damage. It is always available, and is not gated by any resource, cooldown, or the like, whereas we have MP for magic, ammo for ranged, piety for god abilities, XP for evocables etc. So it doesn't make too much sense to complain about the game punishing "non-melee" playstyles; in similar fashion, we can say that counterstrike punishes you for only using a knife, or that soccer has very restrictive gameplay because you are strongly encouraged to use your feet (the head-oriented playstyles are very difficult, and the rules even expressly forbid a hand-oriented build). Of course, in crawl, it happens that some other things, like the infamous "pure caster", are also doable. And that is fine; it just doesn't appear to be the intention of the game.

Incidentally, I don't think the "melee is overpowered" complaint is actually about melee combat, since a common comparison in this regard seems to be between a character in heavy armour and some big weapon and a character in lighter armour with more magic training. If the former is much easier, which is a contentious claim, then the conclusion should be that heavy armour is overpowered, since the primary decision here is "do I want to easily learn magic, or do I want to wear heavy armour?".

[Sandman25]

I thought that the point/problem was supposed to be that it was optimal to spend basically all experience in weapon skill/armor/fighting (and maybe dodging? I don't know).

Sorry if I confused you. Yes, most experience goes to weapon/armour/fighting/dodging but it does not mean they cannot cast spells. Melee characters are more versatile than casters - if they find an excellent spell (Ozocubu's Armour, Spectral Weapon or Haste, for example), they can switch to light armour (probably temporarily) and still be superior to casters. They can even decide to become dedicated casters if they want to, no experience is wasted unlike casters who switch to lucky heavy armour drop. Basically I see melee characters as default characters, they train skills in optimal way - weapon, then fighting/armour/dodging and then some spells, they always use the most reliable and OP way of killing a single monster, they have the highest chance to survive unlucky teleport or stairs situation, they are more resilient and least vulnerable to lack of luck with gear.
Most Xom wins are melee characters, I hardly can imagine a blaster or ranger who uses MP or limited ammo as main source damage. Xom characters are different from normal characters of course but the idea is that melee characters are resilient to bad luck. Experimental Imp species (who randomly teleports often) is another example.

[Sandman25]

It would appear to me that crawl is designed with the intention of melee combat being the default means of doing damage. It is always available, and is not gated by any resource, cooldown, or the like, whereas we have MP for magic, ammo for ranged, piety for god abilities, XP for evocables etc. So it doesn't make too much sense to complain about the game punishing "non-melee" playstyles; in similar fashion, we can say that counterstrike punishes you for only using a knife, or that soccer has very restrictive gameplay because you are strongly encouraged to use your feet (the head-oriented playstyles are very difficult, and the rules even expressly forbid a hand-oriented build). Of course, in crawl, it happens that some other things, like the infamous "pure caster", are also doable. And that is fine; it just doesn't appear to be the intention of the game.

I don't think crawl has design goal "play a melee character unless ...". If it does, I am very sad.

Incidentally, I don't think the "melee is overpowered" complaint is actually about melee combat, since a common comparison in this regard seems to be between a character in heavy armour and some big weapon and a character in lighter armour with more magic training. If the former is much easier, which is a contentious claim, then the conclusion should be that heavy armour is overpowered, since the primary decision here is "do I want to easily learn magic, or do I want to wear heavy armour?".

Melee character in light armour is still superior to other play styles IMHO.

Edit. A couple of minutes ago my FoMo in leather armour killed Emperor Scorpion in Spider 2, the only spell used was Ozocubu's Armour (AC 20, EV 26, SH 21), would casters/rangers have as easy time with it? What would caster do if another Emperor Scorpion joined the fight? My melee character lost 14% HP and 0% MP, it is hilarious vs a monster with AC 20, EV 12, 101-138 HP and 30(poison 28-56)/15/15 attacks.

  Code:

The emperor scorpion moves out of view.
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Your icy armour thickens.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack.
The emperor scorpion claws you but does no damage.
The emperor scorpion completely misses you.
You hit the emperor scorpion.(damage 6)
The emperor scorpion is lightly wounded.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack. x3
You pummel the emperor scorpion!!(damage 18)
The emperor scorpion is lightly wounded.
You pummel the emperor scorpion!!(damage 28)
The emperor scorpion is heavily wounded.
The emperor scorpion completely misses you.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack. x2
You closely miss the emperor scorpion.
The emperor scorpion is heavily wounded.
The emperor scorpion completely misses you.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack.
The emperor scorpion claws you but does no damage.
You hit the emperor scorpion but do no damage.
The emperor scorpion is heavily wounded.
You pound the emperor scorpion into fine dust!!!(damage 50)
The emperor scorpion is almost dead.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack.
The emperor scorpion barely misses you. x2
You completely miss the emperor scorpion.
The emperor scorpion is almost dead.
The emperor scorpion stings you!!
You block the emperor scorpion's attack.
The emperor scorpion claws you but does no damage.
Damage: -14%(-21hp)   hp: 86%(121hp)
You closely miss the emperor scorpion.
The emperor scorpion is almost dead.
The emperor scorpion completely misses you.
You block the emperor scorpion's attack. x2
You pummel the emperor scorpion!!(damage 19)
You kill the emperor scorpion!


Edit2. Next fight - killed 2 Demonic Crawlers and lost 1 HP
As you can see huge defense allows to take my time and spend many turns killing them.

  Code:

A demonic crawler comes into view.
A demonic crawler comes into view.
You see here 8 gold pieces.
The helpless demonic crawler fails to defend itself.
You punch the demonic crawler!(damage 7)
The demonic crawler is lightly wounded.
The demonic crawler closely misses you.
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
You block the demonic crawler's attack.
You hit the demonic crawler.(damage 5)
The demonic crawler is moderately wounded.
You block the demonic crawler's attack. x2
The demonic crawler misses you.
You hit the demonic crawler.(damage 5)
The demonic crawler is moderately wounded.
The demonic crawler closely misses you. The demonic crawler hits you.
The demonic crawler hits you but does no damage.
Damage: -0%(-1hp)   hp: 100%(141hp)
You pummel the demonic crawler!!(damage 35)
The demonic crawler is almost dead.
The demonic crawler misses you.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
The demonic crawler closely misses you.
You pummel the demonic crawler!!(damage 19)
You kill the demonic crawler!
You punch the demonic crawler!(damage 15)
The demonic crawler is moderately wounded.
The demonic crawler misses you. You block the demonic crawler's attack.
The demonic crawler closely misses you.
You punch the demonic crawler!(damage 15)
The demonic crawler is heavily wounded.
You block the demonic crawler's attack. x2
The demonic crawler misses you.
You closely miss the demonic crawler.
The demonic crawler is heavily wounded.
The demonic crawler completely misses you.
You block the demonic crawler's attack. x2
You pound the demonic crawler into fine dust!!!(damage 45)
You kill the demonic crawler!

Edit3. Next (and last in the post) battle. Taking 2 Tarantellas and 1 Redback while confused. Can you imagine it with any other play style?

The redback misses you. The tarantella bites you!
You are confused.
Damage: -8%(-12hp) hp: 91%(128hp)
You barely miss the tarantella.
The tarantella is moderately wounded.
The redback closely misses you.
The tarantella bites you but does no damage.
You barely miss the tarantella.
The tarantella is moderately wounded.
The redback closely misses you. The tarantella closely misses you.
The redback misses you.
You pummel the redback!!(damage 30)
You kill the redback!
The tarantella misses you.
The tarantella bites you but does no damage.
The tarantella misses you. The tarantella barely misses you.
The tarantella misses you. The tarantella closely misses you.
The tarantella barely misses you.
Unknown command.
You punch the tarantella!(damage 14)
The tarantella is severely wounded.
The tarantella closely misses you. The tarantella misses you.
You miss the tarantella.
The tarantella is severely wounded.
The tarantella bites you but does no damage.
The tarantella bites you. The redback bites you.
Damage: -4%(-5hp) hp: 89%(126hp)
You swing at nothing. The tarantella closely misses you.
The tarantella misses you. The redback completely misses you.
The tarantella bites you but does no damage.
You hit the tarantella.(damage 3)
The tarantella is almost dead.
The tarantella closely misses you. The redback completely misses you.
The tarantella closely misses you.
You pummel the tarantella!!(damage 24)
You kill the tarantella!
The tarantella bites you.
You are more confused.
The redback bites you!
The tarantella bites you but does no damage.
Damage: -14%(-19hp) hp: 77%(109hp)
Unknown command.
You swing at nothing. The redback closely misses you.
The tarantella misses you.
You miss the tarantella.
The tarantella is moderately wounded.
The redback completely misses you. The tarantella misses you.
The redback bites you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -10%(-14hp) hp: 68%(96hp)
Unknown command.
You pummel the tarantella!!(damage 20)
The tarantella is almost dead.
The tarantella barely misses you. The redback completely misses you.
You punch the tarantella!(damage 16)
You kill the tarantella!
The redback bites you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Damage: -9%(-12hp) hp: 60%(85hp)
Unknown command.
You swing at nothing.
You feel less confused.
You block the redback's attack.
You hit the redback.(damage 3)
The redback is lightly wounded.
You block the redback's attack.
You pummel the redback!!(damage 20)
You kill the redback!

[Tressol]

Bolt Spells (Fire or Cold); 3 or 4 should kill the Emperor. If his buddy shows up mid-fight, you can angle the bolt to hit 2 with little fuss. Confusion is a great spell for high-spellpower builds, too. Freezing Cloud and Confusion (or Enslavement) kills basically anything in Spider and is very MP efficient. Enslavement is huge but I guess being removed in Trunk ( ). A necromancer can take it down with an Agony or two followed up with Bolt of Draining or, you know, zombie spiders - Miasma is also an option, I suppose. High-level summoning spells exist - Shadow Creatures could be online by this point, giving you Emperor Scorpions of your own, potentially. Petrify and stab until dead or just walk away and fight when you have the MP (Slow also works here, I suppose). Iron Shot or Orb of Destruction (the latter IS a bit loud) could be online by now as well and should make an ES rather sad. MP issues can be largely mitigated at this point in the game anyway; you may have found a Staff of Energy already, or you may be following Sif or have Sublimation of Blood.

Casters don't become confused by Tarantellas generally, because they can dominate the situation before it ever gets to that point. Confuse them or kill them before they engage in melee, or have minions prevent melee happening...

[Sandman25]

Bolt Spells (Fire or Cold); 3 or 4 should kill the Emperor. If his buddy shows up mid-fight, you can angle the bolt to hit 2 with little fuss. Confusion is a great spell for high-spellpower builds, too. Freezing Cloud and Confusion (or Enslavement) kills basically anything in Spider and is very MP efficient. Enslavement is huge but I guess being removed in Trunk ( ). A necromancer can take it down with an Agony or two followed up with Bolt of Draining or, you know, zombie spiders - Miasma is also an option, I suppose. High-level summoning spells exist - Shadow Creatures could be online by this point, giving you Emperor Scorpions of your own, potentially. Petrify and stab until dead or just walk away and fight when you have the MP (Slow also works here, I suppose). Iron Shot or Orb of Destruction (the latter IS a bit loud) could be online by now as well and should make an ES rather sad. MP issues can be largely mitigated at this point in the game anyway; you may have found a Staff of Energy already, or you may be following Sif or have Sublimation of Blood.

Ok, here is my NaWz of Vehumet.
21335 | Lair:5 | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Fire
56164 | Spider:2 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 175/175 MP: 37/37

4 Bolts of Fire mean I lost 64% MP in the fight. No, thanks, I will take my FoMo with -14% HP any time. I am not saying Wz cannot kill the monster, I am saying that melee character will be safer after the fight and is not that vulnerable to being surrounded and/or confused. This is what I call "easier" (and even OP)

[Tressol]

Bolt Spells (Fire or Cold); 3 or 4 should kill the Emperor. If his buddy shows up mid-fight, you can angle the bolt to hit 2 with little fuss. Confusion is a great spell for high-spellpower builds, too. Freezing Cloud and Confusion (or Enslavement) kills basically anything in Spider and is very MP efficient. Enslavement is huge but I guess being removed in Trunk ( ). A necromancer can take it down with an Agony or two followed up with Bolt of Draining or, you know, zombie spiders - Miasma is also an option, I suppose. High-level summoning spells exist - Shadow Creatures could be online by this point, giving you Emperor Scorpions of your own, potentially. Petrify and stab until dead or just walk away and fight when you have the MP (Slow also works here, I suppose). Iron Shot or Orb of Destruction (the latter IS a bit loud) could be online by now as well and should make an ES rather sad. MP issues can be largely mitigated at this point in the game anyway; you may have found a Staff of Energy already, or you may be following Sif or have Sublimation of Blood.

Ok, here is my NaWz of Vehumet.
21335 | Lair:5 | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Fire
56164 | Spider:2 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 175/175 MP: 37/37

4 Bolts of Fire mean I lost 64% MP in the fight. No, thanks, I will take my FoMo with -14% HP any time. I am not saying Wz cannot kill the monster, I am saying that melee character will be safer after the fight and is not that vulnerable to being surrounded and/or confused. This is what I call "easier".

Firstly, Formicid... Yes, they are powerful, but no escapes and many buffs unavailable. Secondly, you took the most MP intensive solution I proposed and then complained that it used a lot of MP when I mentioned how it could kill two at once with bolts (which, btw, your shield becomes way less good when you fight multiple opponents at once, which can easily happen in an open space like Spider) or kill one with *way* less mp. Also, about MP and HP... There are renewable options to regain MP quickly. Even a Staff of Energy is faster than Regeneration, especially if you look at it in terms of percentages. Combat in Crawl is still very randomized so you could end up taking more than you expect (remember my spiny frog?) and *then* end up having enemies show up... But yes, MP management is an issue that spellcasters have to deal with; this seems obvious. Is the issue that Melee is too easy in the sense that it is straightforward or in the sense that it is powerful?

[Sandman25]

Also I am not sure 4 Bolts of Fire will be enough.
Int 26

  Code:

 - Level 14.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 14.0 Conjurations
 - Level 14.0 Fire Magic

l - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      74 (200)     1%          6    186

Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - emperor scorpion
Aim: an emperor scorpion (chance 50%)
The bolt of fire hits the emperor scorpion.(damage 34)
The emperor scorpion is moderately wounded.

Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel more attuned to fire.
n - a ring of fire (left hand) {rF+, rC-}
Casting: Bolt of Fire
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - emperor scorpion
Aim: an emperor scorpion (moderately wounded, chance 52%)
You feel a surge of power!
The bolt of fire hits the emperor scorpion.(damage 43)
Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
o - an uncursed staff of fire (weapon) {rF+ !a}
Casting: Bolt of Fire
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - emperor scorpion
Aim: an emperor scorpion (severely wounded, chance 53%)
You feel a strong surge of power!
The bolt of fire misses the emperor scorpion.


53% with 2 enhancers, decent Int and magic skills, this is not even funny provided casters actually care about misses unlike melee characters.

[Sandman25]

Is the issue that Melee is too easy in the sense that it is straightforward or in the sense that it is powerful?

Both.

[Tressol]

Wow - that's a huge miss rate, much higher than I would have thought. Interesting.

[Sandman25]

your shield becomes way less good when you fight multiple opponents at once, which can easily happen in an open space like Spider

Yes, I know. As I wrote before, one of the reasons why melee is so good is its low XP requirement, as melee you have better defense (be it AC/EV/HP/SH) and can fight much longer battles. With vampiric weapon you even can clear whole levels non-stop.

[Sandman25]

Wow - that's a huge miss rate, much higher than I would have thought. Interesting.

I learned it hard way when my Fo had 50% chance to miss LCS vs Lom Lobon despite Int 39, Earth 27, Conjurations 17, Spellcasting 25, brilliance and staff of earth.
We know very little about spells and overestimate both accuracy and damage IMHO.

[tabstorm]

And here I thought melee accuracy was bad.

[Sandman25]

And here I thought melee accuracy was bad.

Oops, maybe my calculations are wrong.
There is such comment in the code for beams.

  Code:

    // FIXME: We're randomising mon->evasion, which is further
    // randomised inside test_beam_hit.  This is so we stay close to the
    // 4.0 to-hit system (which had very little love for monsters).

Lom Lobon has EV 20 so apparently my to_hit with LCS was 20 too. If EV is randomized twice, then to_hit was really closer to 75% instead of 50%.

Edit. I am not a mathematician but based on my calculations with to_hit 4 and monster EV 4 chance to hit is 81.25%, not 50%.
Sorry about false alarm. I also casted some Bolts of Fire on Emperor Scorpion in wizmode, hit 12 out of 15.

Edit2. I am not sure how to calculate the chance in common case. With to_hit and EV 20 it can be slightly different.
I guess I was extremely unlucky in that fight with Lom Lobon

  Code:

The crystal spear misses Lom Lobon.
The crystal spear misses Lom Lobon.
The crystal spear hits Lom Lobon.(damage 77)
The crystal spear misses Lom Lobon.
The crystal spear misses Lom Lobon.

[The Ferret]

no, don't nerf melee

if they nerf melee then everything will be on the same level again, which means they'll nerf blasters-casters, then archers will be too powerful so they'll nerf ranged, then melee will be too powerful so they'll nerf melee. lather, rinse, repeat.

2017 crawl learndb entry:

rat

1) a very dangerous monster commonly found on D:1. avoid if possible, engage with caution.
2) "you swing at the rat. the rat is unharmed. you swing at the rat. the rat is unharmed. the rat bites you. you die..."

[Tressol]

In regards to Lom Lobon, does Tornado provide any sort of protection against missile attacks? It would make sense if it did, but that doesn't always mean much... I have only had like one character to get Tornado cast and it was several versions ago. :p

[Sandman25]

Currently neither wiki nor learndb mention anything special about missiles/bolts in tornado entry.

[archaeo]

Kind of hard to get a handle on a perspective that says talking about the game is somehow illegitimate in the first place and certainly arguing about it is totally out of bounds, but nevertheless scolds everyone for not doing it civilly enough. What's the point in staking out a position as the guy who doesn't post anything and frankly considers doing so déclassé?

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but Arrhy already demolished my point pretty thoroughly, so whatever. I don't think posting is "déclassé," nor do I think it's illegitimate to talk or argue about the game. It just seems super possible to do it without being a dick.

[Arrhythmia]

i would like to point out that i actually think internet arguments here, and in general, are déclassé, ugly, dehumanizing, undignified, illegitimate, and so on. caring is way too 20th century

[mps]

Kind of hard to get a handle on a perspective that says talking about the game is somehow illegitimate in the first place and certainly arguing about it is totally out of bounds, but nevertheless scolds everyone for not doing it civilly enough. What's the point in staking out a position as the guy who doesn't post anything and frankly considers doing so déclassé?

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but Arrhy already demolished my point pretty thoroughly, so whatever. I don't think posting is "déclassé," nor do I think it's illegitimate to talk or argue about the game. It just seems super possible to do it without being a dick.

"Fancy dwarf and elf game"?

[Berder]

If you do some queries to see what classes have the highest winrates, you'll find a mix of melee and magic. Among all players, melee backgrounds appear to have the highest winrates. Among greatplayers it's more of a mix. I believe melee is easier for beginners, and for skilled players they are more balanced.

[Sandman25]

Some melee characters can be very lucky with equipment (CPA + vampiric, slaying and you can tab through levels), there is nothing like that for casters. I mean some bad players can win with melee due to luck but cannot win with casters because luck is not enough.

[cerebovssquire]

How is finding great spellbooks not the equivalent of finding great melee gear?

[bel]

Some melee characters can be very lucky with equipment (CPA + vampiric, slaying and you can tab through levels), there is nothing like that for casters. I mean some bad players can win with melee due to luck but cannot win with casters because luck is not enough.

Casters can get lucky too. What melee character can enter a ziggurat at XL 20 with and clear it using fire storm? Granted, this was old Vehumet, but still.

I am afraid you have not precisely defined in what way melee is superior. And I don't agree with any of your attempts here to define it for reasons mentioned elsewhere. Of course a caster cannot Tab through a game...because Tab only works with melee or ranged. But spamming fire storm, monstrous menagerie or chain lightning hardly requires more brainpower than pressing tab.

[Sandman25]

How is finding great spellbooks not the equivalent of finding great melee gear?

What is the spellbook equivalent of getting Trog's Wrath before entering Lair and then CPA on Lair 6 (my current character got exactly this)? Archmagi + staff enhancer + 2 rings of MP? No, it would still be possible to die easily with the caster due to zero MP. As melee I can close eyes, press tab 50 times and still be alive

[Sandman25]

Some melee characters can be very lucky with equipment (CPA + vampiric, slaying and you can tab through levels), there is nothing like that for casters. I mean some bad players can win with melee due to luck but cannot win with casters because luck is not enough.

Casters can get lucky too. What melee character can enter a ziggurat at XL 20 with and clear it using fire storm? Granted, this was old Vehumet, but still.

I am afraid you have not precisely defined in what way melee is superior. And I don't agree with any of your attempts here to define it for reasons mentioned elsewhere. Of course a caster cannot Tab through a game...because Tab only works with melee or ranged. But spamming fire storm, monstrous menagerie or chain lightning hardly requires more brainpower than pressing tab.

I was talking about winning the game. Tab works with spells fine too by the way. I disagree about "hardly requires", there are situations when you cannot cast spells (unlike melee).

[cerebovssquire]

Well, sticking with mid-Lair-ish, I think the following examples are comparable in terms of how disparate the characters' respective strength is:
VM who found no useful books vs. one who found books containing parrow, pcloud, swiftness, rmsl and haste
a "fighter" with a +0 battleaxe and +0 plate armour vs. your gear

And I'm not arguing the point that melee is simpler in terms of interface and attention required, I'm talking about character strength (i.e. which character is more likely to die assuming a reasonable level of attention on part of the player, I guess, for which the running out of MP point is barely relevant if you're watching your MP and have strong spells). Obviously you can't press tab for spellcasting but that shouldn't be the foremost concern when it comes to a nerf. Besides. the thought process "do I need to cast a weak spell for an easy target, a single-target strong conjuration for a strong target or a cloud spell for a group" is not more intellectually demanding than "can I survive tabbing through this", even if it involves more keypresses.