Hypothetical Removals


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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 16:35

Hypothetical Removals

If you were forced to remove

-4 gods
-6 backgrounds and
-6 species,

what would they be? Feel free to include mobs, mechanics, or anything you feel even just lukewarm about. I'm building the ideal fork of Crawl where nothing exists.

Mine are:
-Gozag, Yred, Beogh, Ashenzari

-FIghter, Skald, Assassin (merge with hunter), AM/Wr, all zealot backgrounds and monk.

-Everything except Ghouls

And remove Pan. Or at least trim it down to something that very much resembles an easier Hell.
Last edited by Greyr on Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 16:41

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I don't get this trend towards wanting to delete everything. Content adds depth to the game, even if it's not essential.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 16:49

Re: Hypothetical Removals

So obviously this thread has a satirical edge to it, but I don't agree that content will always add depth. Just check out Tome4 for example, that game is just an absolute clusterfuck of content and most of it is broken. The entire experience of that game is like wading through a swamp of broken skills and janky as hell "uniques" that will one-shot you because of your lack of encyclopedic knowledge of that one obscure class you never bothered to play. You should check it out if you haven't already. It can be fun.

Content saturation is a very real thing.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:03

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Generally content is good. There are rare cases where content is simply broken and ruins the game, but none of the things anybody is proposing to remove here fall into that category. If you don't like a god or background or race, just don't play it.
Last edited by Berder on Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:05

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I would remove vp/gh because of their annoying nutrition management.
I would take Ru/Gozag out of the release game because they feel half baked, and qazlal/yred because they are just boring.
I would remove levels... shrink lair to 4, lair branches/vaults to 3, crypts/elf/orc to 2, and cut extended entirely, or drastically shrink it to a set of single level rune vaults. Abyss gone too, or at drastically refocused into something that resolves a lot faster, like a portal.
I would remove any monster that employs a novel mechanic post lair. They could get added back in the game if they got a defanged early game counterpart that actually works within the d9-lair game, because to me that is the most focused and fun part of crawl.
Last edited by Kismet on Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:08

Re: Hypothetical Removals

You may be interested in this nearly identical thread from about two weeks ago:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15423&p=210970

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:10

Re: Hypothetical Removals

It isn't a terrible idea for a thread, but it's already come up and rather recently, so I'm not sure I want to repeat it all ;)

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15423

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:12

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Oh shoot, sorry guys. I should probably pay more attention.

Berder wrote:Generally content is good. There are rare cases where content is simply broken and ruins the game, but none of the things anybody is proposing to remove here fall into that category. If you don't like a god or background or race, just don't play it.


Well, what if the species/background is poorly designed?

Djinn, Lava orc, crusader... The list goes on. Same goes for TE4.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:45

Re: Hypothetical Removals

This makes me feel bad for the devs. Imagine people standing around your sculpture and going, "which parts wouldn't be missed if they were lopped off?" For criticism to be constructive it should be specific, and arise out of repeated frustration shared by many.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:48

Re: Hypothetical Removals

moocowmoocow wrote:This makes me feel bad for the devs. Imagine people standing around your sculpture and going, "which parts wouldn't be missed if they were lopped off?" For criticism to be constructive it should be specific, and arise out of repeated frustration shared by many.


I hope no one takes it personally. Players are individuals and they are going to value different things about the game. I also doubt that the devs really feel bound to respond to or care about the feedback provided on tavern, especially sans patch from the complainer.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 18:06

Re: Hypothetical Removals

"Somebody noticed what I did" can be almost as rewarding as "somebody appreciated what I did."

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 18:09

Re: Hypothetical Removals

4 Gods:
  • Gozag (Ehh)
  • Makhleb (Invocations are pretty dull; the +HP is almost brokenly power. TSO is far better made)
  • Beogh (Weaker Yred with cute flavour; but not practical)
  • Jiyva (High cost; slightly less chaotic Xom; not well)
Species:
  • Demigod (clean remove; godlessness should be a challenge, not a race)
  • Halfling (merge with Kobold)
  • High Elf (HE feels halfway between Hu and DE; feel the extreme race is better)
  • Deep Dwarf (DD's gimmick is CLASSIC; but it still doesn't work well)
  • Vampire (Apts are similar to Spriggan and Naga and their blood gimmick doesn't add much)
  • Human (Even apts is all Hu has; Ds and Dr both have this with cooler bonuses beyond it).

I don't think I'd remove any backgrounds.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 18:10

Re: Hypothetical Removals

moocowmoocow wrote:This makes me feel bad for the devs. Imagine people standing around your sculpture and going, "which parts wouldn't be missed if they were lopped off?" For criticism to be constructive it should be specific, and arise out of repeated frustration shared by many.

I wish people were more OK with removals. :P
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 19:00

Re: Hypothetical Removals

4 Gods:
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
Species:
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
Backgrounds:
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid
  • Felid

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 22:41

Re: Hypothetical Removals

hey, Lasty, something tells me you dislike Felids, am I right?
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 23:24

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Berder wrote:Generally content is good.

have you ever actually looked at GDD

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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 00:05

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I think about the only generally agreed on and thing that's likely to actually happen that came out of the last thread is that Gozag probably needs some work, but I doubt it can't be buffed/redesigned/etc until it works.

Also remove the auto-jump-back that red devils do, please. <.<

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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 05:29

Re: Hypothetical Removals

gods:

sif muna - my a key is broken and i have to copy paste when i want to use it
beogh - replace it with that new god bcadren thought up
ashenzari - hard to spell, has two `a`s so hard to copy paste too
forgot the name - just sucks


backgrounds:
crusader: can spellcast berserk, too op
jester: bad idea, april fool joke, shouldn`t stay in the game
mage: all of them, all of the mages


races:
humans: uhhh hello can you say BORING?
minotaur: replace with moutain dwarfs
deep drawves: replace
sludge elfs: replace with exoelfs
elfs: i mean hello whats with all the elfs here
felid: just wanted to agree w/ a dev here, never played it

i play a pretty old version sorry if anything is already suggesed and changed!
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Post Monday, 30th March 2015, 15:03

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Hirsch I wrote:hey, Lasty, something tells me you dislike Felids, am I right?

You're thinking of someone else.

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Post Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:45

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I'm going back on my original answer for gods:

Gods:
Okawaru
Makhleb
Gozag
Beogh
Jiyva
Dithmenos
Sif Muna

Well not go back on; add to. Remove all of those.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 21:07

Re: Hypothetical Removals

bcadren wrote:I'm going back on my original answer for gods:

Gods:
Okawaru
Makhleb
Gozag
Beogh
Jiyva
Dithmenos
Sif Muna

Well not go back on; add to. Remove all of those.


Now you're getting it!
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Post Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 21:51

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Greyr wrote:
bcadren wrote:I'm going back on my original answer for gods:

Gods:
Okawaru
Makhleb
Gozag
Beogh
Jiyva
Dithmenos
Sif Muna

Well not go back on; add to. Remove all of those.


Now you're getting it!
Those are all the ones that don't have a 'give something up for great power' dynamic; instead being (usually weaker) bonuses at zero cost. Some are powerful enough in their own right (Sif, especially); but they aren't as good from both flavour and design perspectives as the others.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 22:13

Re: Hypothetical Removals

beogh has a "give up fun for power" mechanic though

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Post Wednesday, 1st April 2015, 19:39

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I would remove:

-4 gods
Gozag
Yred
Beogh
Ely
-6 backgrounds
Fighter
Wizard(I'm the best there will ever be anyway)
Assassin
Skald
Warper
Venom Mage
duvessa (Dowan doesn't need his punk sister, he can develop his own fighting skills!)
-6 species,
Halflings
Deep Dwarf
Humans
Draconian
Centaur
Tengu
Felid
Felid
Felid
Felid
duvessa

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Post Wednesday, 1st April 2015, 22:11

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Berder wrote:Generally content is good. There are rare cases where content is simply broken and ruins the game, but none of the things anybody is proposing to remove here fall into that category. If you don't like a god or background or race, just don't play it.


No, generally content is bad; if you don't constantly keep cutting your worst stuff you just accomplish letting the game grow ever more complex in exchange for players having to stumble on the anti-fun landmines before they can actually have fun playing your game.

Don't you ever wake up in a cold sweat at night imagining the newbie whose introduction to crawl regrettably involves picking felid on the character select screen?

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Post Wednesday, 1st April 2015, 22:36

Re: Hypothetical Removals

tbh I have little sympathy for some hypothetical newbie who picked a goddamn cat in chargen and expected it to wear a plate or something

there's "human" option for a reason

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Post Wednesday, 1st April 2015, 22:48

Re: Hypothetical Removals

4 gods
Gozag
Ely
Dim
Zin

4 Backgrounds
Skald
Artificer
Necromancer
Warper
Arcane Marksman

Species
High Elf
Halfling
Octopode
Mummy
Ghoul
Human

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Post Wednesday, 1st April 2015, 23:15

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Glenstorm wrote:
Berder wrote:Generally content is good. There are rare cases where content is simply broken and ruins the game, but none of the things anybody is proposing to remove here fall into that category. If you don't like a god or background or race, just don't play it.


No, generally content is bad; if you don't constantly keep cutting your worst stuff you just accomplish letting the game grow ever more complex in exchange for players having to stumble on the anti-fun landmines before they can actually have fun playing your game.
Not all content is created equal: you can only ever be one species during each game, the existence of other species is irrelevant then. This is same for backgrounds but different for spells or items or monsters. And that's why purging spells etc. is crucial: every single spell competes, in principle, with every other spell, in every game. Therefore, competition is fierce, and if a spell is only slightly better than the rest, that's already bad.

Situation is also tough, but different for monsters: having very same-y monsters is not only inelegant, but forces players to needlessly learn stuff. Having monsters with gimmicks (worst case: rare but deadly gimmicks) is bad, as it forces players to learn a lot of stuff and play in an extra-paranoid style. Creating non-threatening monsters is bad for obvious reasons. Not all players reach certain depths at the same strength, so the resulting optimisation problem is far from trivial. That's why you see so much monster tweaking all the time.

So new content is good for that Shiny New Stuff feeling. It can create problems in several directions: (a) cognitive load, i.e. players have to learn and assess more things, (b) power spiral, especially, obsoleting previous content, (c) diminishing variation in content. As I tried to explain, different types of new content tend to trigger different of these problems. For example, a new species is never a threat to balance, and we have done a lot to make the species more varied. There is a problem of information overload (especially for new players), but that can be addressed, if considered necessary (e.g. by high-lighting only a few species on the selection screen).

I think it's good that many Crawl players accept and even like/suggest removals. I also think that some go overboard. It's a lot more fun to experiment with new stuff than to sort through existing content (that's a lot more work-like). So instead of crying out loud for every new monster gimmick that's being tried out, it'd help much more to get in-depth reviews.

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Post Sunday, 5th April 2015, 05:53

Re: Hypothetical Removals

dpeg wrote:it'd help much more to get in-depth reviews.

Is this something that would actually be helpful for the development team? I was under the impression that, for the most part, developers don't really typically read or interact on tavern (with a few exceptions), and that the ideas presented here were preferred in the form of a proposal. For the most part, the useful ones that go through to implementation are of the form "why didn't we think of that/why isn't it already like that"; ideas that align with crawl design and unambiguously make the game better, usually involving a small amount of work. If you'd like to read one random dude's opinions on various parts of the game, I'd be happy to post them - the AWBW irc channel already gets an earful of my madness from time to time.

Possible subjects could include:
Boulder beetles being a fantastic monster because they represent a unique threat, but have a windup and animation that's so readable there's essentially no burden of knowledge - I've seen multiple unspoiled first time players sidestep these things in their first encounter, without xv. They even have a bonus of kind of teaching you how OoDs work (though not really because those can turn - orb spiders are the real OoD training ground). Convokers also have a bit of a windup that's harder to read, but I'd like to see these types of mechanics explored more.

Ogre Magi being my LEAST favorite monster ever, because the game spawns them like psuedo popcorn, but one of their 5 spells in one of their 5 spellbooks is paralyse, so to truly play correctly you need to treat them with the same caution you treat spinxes, great orbs of eyes, and giant eyes, on the offchance that this particular ogre mage pulls off the 1/100 paralysis. These high threat monsters are fun, when they're rare.

Vaults being the best branch because, with the new humans, the theme of the branch is generating the feeling of a bank heist in the player. You have to make a difficult entry, after which you get trapped and hunted (which works extra well because it plays into primal human fears). Then the next tier of branches are the ones that are focused on the theme of a mechanical gimmick; shoals is about dealing with ranged threats over difficult terrain with little cover, snake is about high power threats that are slow but have tricks like constriction and blink allies encircling that make it more difficult to escape (maybe mesm would fit better here than in shoals, even). The worst branches are stuff like tomb or almost every GDD branch suggestion where the theme of the branch is something cosmetic, like lets make this branch about frogs, rather than focusing on a particular type of player experience or mechanical trick (the way branches are named in crawl probably does not help with this).

I think that the existence of popcorn monsters or that your 2nd lair branch is easier than your first is actually good for the game, because players tend to find games more fun when the tension/difficulty has natural peaks and valleys. When you keep the tension ratcheted up to the max the entire time it tends to make the experience stressful, which you sometimes feel on really hard characters. It's cool that this happens on rare occasion (personally these games end up being my favorite), but I think its a bad place to be for the default experience. Mummy exists to help you generate this whenever you want it.

Or anything you guys would specifically like feedback on. Posts would probably be somewhat more complete than this, but not too much longer - I have a pretty terse writing style. I enjoy doing this kind of critique, but I only want to do it if it's stuff that will legitimately be read and considered by people who actually make decisions on what goes into crawl. Let me know if you'd like to see more like the above, and don't be shy to tell me that you aren't really looking for that kind of thing :P

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:03

Re: Hypothetical Removals

twelwe wrote:ashenzari - hard to spell, has two `a`s so hard to copy paste too

I had a dream about this last night. It was a dream about twelwe saying something on this forum but I couldn't remember what it was. But then after a while I did remember. And it was this sentence, right here.

welp cya

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:15

Re: Hypothetical Removals

dpeg wrote: Having monsters with gimmicks (worst case: rare but deadly gimmicks) is bad, as it forces players to learn a lot of stuff and play in an extra-paranoid style.
[snip]
it'd help much more to get in-depth reviews.

This review isn't so much in depth, but here's a rare and deadly gimmick: Monsters with crystal spear. Huge damage, easily dodged, blocked with shields, very subject to high max rolls/dealing little damage if you're lucky. It doesn't have to be abandoned - just bump up the number of dice from 3 to 9+ (same as fire storm, player iron shots, etc) . Give it a large bonus to accuracy and take off 20% damage. Now it hits more often, but doesn't one shot you as much. Give it a bonus to bypassing SH if you like.

Why do player's crystal spears roll 10 dice for damage and monsters roll 3?

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:19

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Leave the shield blocking LCS the same. I don't think anyone is complaining about shields being too good.

Also I hate to say it but normalizing damage / etc. is going to turn this into WoW or some kind of game analogy that people won't like.

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:23

Re: Hypothetical Removals

pickled_heretic wrote:Leave the shield blocking LCS the same. I don't think anyone is complaining about shields being too good.

Also I hate to say it but normalizing damage / etc. is going to turn this into WoW or some kind of game analogy that people won't like.

So you're in favor of player crystal spear rolling 3 dice?

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:30

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I guess I am pretty ambivalent about the number of dice either way, but I do like the effect shields have on it.

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 17:44

Re: Hypothetical Removals

It is fine that some spells are more dangerous to characters in heavy armour IMHO.
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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 18:01

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Greyr wrote:If you were forced to remove

-4 gods
-6 backgrounds and
-6 species,

what would they be?


4 Gods: Yahweh, Alah, Krishna, Apollo

6 Backgrounds: Evangelist, Politician, Lawyer, Marketing, Venture Capitalist, Huckster

6 Species: Naegleria Fowleri, Irukandji, Brown Recluses, Taipan Snakes, all Swans, and Pink Iguanas

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Post Tuesday, 26th May 2015, 18:04

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I would remove pandas because nature is trying real hard to do that anyway
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Post Wednesday, 27th May 2015, 19:37

Re: Hypothetical Removals

XuaXua wrote:'m OK with the fish that goes up your pee-pee.

as a Brazillian, I'm fucking not ok with them.
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Post Wednesday, 27th May 2015, 20:02

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Greyr wrote:So obviously this thread has a satirical edge to it, but I don't agree that content will always add depth. Just check out Tome4 for example, that game is just an absolute clusterfuck of content and most of it is broken. The entire experience of that game is like wading through a swamp of broken skills and janky as hell "uniques" that will one-shot you because of your lack of encyclopedic knowledge of that one obscure class you never bothered to play. You should check it out if you haven't already. It can be fun.

I like TOME4 because of the large variety of classes. That's the main reason I play that game. If it didn't have that much content I would have played it less than I have. Different games can be good at different things. I don't want all games to follow the same design principles, because different sets of design principles can be fun in their own ways. I'm not saying any and all design decisions are subjective and therefore can't be bad.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 27th May 2015, 23:38

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Berder wrote:Generally content is good. There are rare cases where content is simply broken and ruins the game, but none of the things anybody is proposing to remove here fall into that category. If you don't like a god or background or race, just don't play it.


Then why did they remove sludge elves and MD?
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 00:34

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Mostly serious answers:

Gods:
Zin, Elyvilon, Gozag, Beogh, dishonorable mention Yred

Backgrounds:
Merge As into Hu
Wz
VM
Wr
Mo
AM
Fi

Species:
Fe
Vp
Ko
HE
Ce
Te
dishonorable mention to Op and Mu because I hate them but they are quite different at least
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For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

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Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 00:46

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I would remove tabstorm.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 00:53

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Well I pretty much just got chaos dunked
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 04:27

Re: Hypothetical Removals

If people dislike Elyvilon and Gozag so much, why not merge them under an Apothecary theme? Collect more gold, buy healing or other perks on demand. Will that cancel out the suck, or double it? :P
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 17:02

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Gozag is great. Do not remove.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
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Slime Squisher

Posts: 415

Joined: Monday, 8th December 2014, 10:31

Location: Sweedledome

Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 18:48

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Felid, Octopode, Demigod, Human, Naga, Ghoul. Because aint won em and it brings greatplayer closer. Left Mu out in favour of Hu because I actually like the pain that is Mu and humans dont interest me at all, thats why I crawl.
Online Wins: MiFi, GrFi, TrMo, HOGl, SpEn, {DEWz, DDNe}, {OgBe, CeHu}, FoFi, VSFi, MfGl, {HaGl, VpEn, HESk}, KoAs, DsFi, TeMo

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 179

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 19:38

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Species

Human - Boring, boring, boring.
Centaurs - Kiting Inc. Tedious and boring
Merfolk - Gimmick is pointless 99% of the time. Otherwise I use polearms I guess.
Vampire - Neat gimmick that is annoying in practice
Centaurs - They look dumb

Oddly enough Ko and Ha feel different enough in play to me... may be just my imagination, been a while.

Backgrounds

AM, AM, AM, AM, AM - Seriously what's up with that spellbook? Goodbye Enslave I guess.
Wr - No. Pretends to be a playstyle, but isn't. Newbie trap.

Move Ne to Warrior Mage.

Gods

Don't really care. Though removing Chei would stop the endless discussions ...

Others

Give Lom Singularity. I mean, why not? Dude needs more level nine spells!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 20:07

Re: Hypothetical Removals

Zwobot wrote:Give Lom Singularity. I mean, why not? Dude needs more level nine spells!


Yes, we need someone be able to cast all level 9 spells. Call it Serpent of Zot and put it in Orb chamber.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 21:07

Re: Hypothetical Removals

gozag beogh ash nemelex
sk mo as ak su wz
fe dd vp ha gr gh

in order from "would most remove" to "would least remove"
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th May 2015, 21:17

Re: Hypothetical Removals

I'm somewhat surprised that no one has complained about Vine Stalker, Gargoyle or Formicid.
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