An idea to make allies less annoying to use

[damiac]

Consider this idea: a "get behind me" command that is two keystrokes. When you issue this command (t g), first the game finds the average location of enemy monsters weighted by HD. Half of your LOS is closer to that location, and half of your LOS is farther from that location. Allies that are obeying the command try to get out of the half of your LOS that's closer to the enemy location, and will refuse to walk into that half of your LOS, but otherwise act normally.

This was someone else's idea, and I'm not sure this particular idea is that easy to implement, but it would be nice to have some way to order your allies to stay out of your way, without having them retreat all the way out of LOS.

Another idea would be some way to issue standing orders to allies, with one of those orders being 'stay behind me'. They behave just as now, except they won't charge in front of you to get to enemies. This would really make it less frustrating to have a bunch of skeletons or zombies. However, it wouldn't make the game any easier, it would just reduce the tedium of trying to manage allies so they don't get themselves killed stupidly.

I'm putting this in CYC instead of GDD because it needs more fleshing out, so please try to stay as on-topic as can reasonably be achieved. Thank you

[twelwe]

Thank you

your welcome

[Lyrick]

How far do you think crawl should go in terms of directing your allies?

I'm not fond of the summoning/perma ally business (the furthest I dabble in this realm is with animate dead), but I understand the pain of your dudes getting in the way of your abilities.

The current set-up for allied commands is very limited, but maybe its part of the deal when you decide to take on summoning; you get tons of disposable allies, but these same allies will be uncontrollable, annoying, and in the way of everything that isn't a melee attack.

[damiac]

Something being annoying is not a balance feature. It doesn't make the game harder, it just makes it less fun. Crawl's design document is really clear about that.
And combined with the fact that raising skeletons and/or zombies is very much optimal over not doing so (except troggies and good god followers) playing the game optimally means taking this annoyance head on most of the time. I think it would be nice to be able to keep your allies out of your way, and still have them close by to make use of. That's not terribly easy right now, interface-wise.

[twelwe]

sometimes (playing optimally only though) i want my normal zombies to move upper left and that there is no command to do so i have to manipulate the thing and its annoying. since this is not a balance feature i propose a command system of eight commands for characters to whom it would be optimal to raise zombies (mages, fighter-mages and mage-fighters, some hybrids). these characters would want to use the first command to move upper left. these characters would want to use the second command to move up. these characters would want to use the third command to move upper right. these characters would want to use the fourth command to move right. these characters would want to use the fifth command to move down right. these characters would want to use the sixth command to move down. these characters would want to use the seventh command to move down left. ultimately and however, these characters would want to use the eighth command to move regular left. since there is no downside and no one would ever use this in a tedious fashion, why even argue about this? can we put it up for a vote this time in celebration of men debating but ultimately agreeing with me and get this coded up?

[damiac]

That could work, or just two commands, stay behind me, or charge the enemies. Either way, really. But it is easier to win an argument with a strawman than to participate in a discussion. Stalking people on forums is just so cool. I guess you just really like me, but you don't know how to express it. I just don't feel the same way about you bro.

Stick to the snide insults though. Talking shit about bcardren at random is so totally classy too, but I guess you forgot to mention him this time. Oh well, there will be plenty of easy targets.

[wizzzargh]

The primary function that I would use this for is luring enemies through corridors/doors so they not only have to fight me, but also the 2 zombies standing next to/behind me without the pain of zombies stepping in front of me into the enemy filled corridor to die one at a time. While this would be most excellent for me and my pair of Ettin Zombies, it would be less excellent for enemy monsters, who do not have the benefit of a human optimizing their tactical positioning.

I think allies being as stupid as AI monsters is something crawl needs to keep if allies are going to be kept at all.

Edit for example and further thoughts
Summon Forest is a nifty spell- when the Dryad summons Snaplasher vines out of the trees and stays safe, the effects is pretty great. I had an ancient lich get dragged away and demolished by vines. However, the Dryad also likes to rush into melee and then heal herself till she dies. That sucks, but if I could make the dryad stay behind me and spam her spells with 100% reliability, Summon Forest would improve-" but only if you input "Tell" "Get Behind Me." Currently the best you can do is sort of try to block her and swap places and maybe put other summons in her way, which due to enemy positioning is usually more trouble than it's worth, but has non-trivial interaction with terrain and monsters that has more important consequences than spending 1 turn shouting to "get behind me," and so is part of the intended tactical movement game of Crawl.. As opposed to "press T then G in a normally irrelevant mini menu and enjoy your allies suddenly becoming significantly more effective."

tl;dr
Allies are balanced around being dumb lumps that you can base YOUR positioning around, rather than things to be treated as extensions of the character. Allies are to Necromancy/Summoning/God as Freezing Clouds are to Freezing Cloud Spell- a disposable product you use, then forget about, not something you are intended to micromanage in addition to your own character. If allies act stupidly and die, that would be the equivalent of "you miss." not something that needs more complexity.