Maturing Trolls

[Deimos]

Trolls should mature into rock(ac+hp)/iron(ac+resist)/deep(ac+mr+spellcasting) at a later XP level like Draconians. I'm thinking more of a mid-game thing (~Orc), not pre-Lair, though.

They seem kind of boring after the whole "i am sigmund incarnate" thing wears off and one of my favorite features of Crawl is Dr/DS's growth. I think it'd be interesting. Granted I'm pretty sure the different trolls are currently flavored as different species, so that'd need to change.

deep trolls are people too, help make crawl less bigoted

[headcrab0803]

i guess we could possibly do this but doesnt it overlap with draconians
noting that few species were removed because they shared some niches with other races

[Deimos]

Draconians are cool because of the dragonesque breath attacks and the fact the maturing comes in early - it can influence the direction you'll take your character. The fact they change colors at all is awesome too, but that's only part of the equation. I don't necessarily think that trolls changing would violate what makes dr unique, especially if the mechanic behind trolls changing was different (maybe you get to pick what you become? maybe it's far more gradual? who knows!).

To be honest I just think Tr is boring after the early game. I'm cool with them still being more difficult later on, but I'd like something to look forward to rather than just the game getting more and more difficult.

[Sar]

Trolls don't really get much more difficult unless you fuck up their skilling somewhat spectacularly.

[Deimos]

at least I have confirmation that I suck at trolls

[Sar]

I'm actually sorry if it sounded like "lol you suck". Which it did, I suppose. Sorry!

[Deimos]

no i honestly do suck at trolls, you didn't sound like that, no worries

[Sandman25]

Trolls don't really get much more difficult unless you fuck up their skilling somewhat spectacularly.

It's very hard to die on D1 which basically has no ranged threats but it is extremely easy to die in Zot 5 with all those OoF and Ancient Lich.
For other species it is still not that hard to die on D1 so the difference for Troll feels larger IMHO.

[Sar]

Well I guess if you're meaning that Troll superiority is most apparent in the earlygame and thus creates a feeling of Trolls "falling behind"...

[Sandman25]

Yes, as "much more difficult" I do not mean "extremely difficult". Treat it "less easy" if it will help
Probably I am a bad Troll player but for me it loses "the hardest to die species" title long before Zot. Maybe it has something to do with play style, I prefer to have high AC instead of high HP as the former allows more reckless play with regeneration/vampirism/Makhleb.

[Greyr]

  Code:

They seem kind of boring after the whole "i am sigmund incarnate" thing wears off

I see this as a bit of a contradiction.

Trolls are are the early game. In fact, it's a tab-fest to the lair, regardless of class. I find this much more boring than the mid-game where you have to actually think about your moves.

But that's just me.

[Rumbleguts]

A troll at level 27 that picks up the orb of zot should turn into a moon troll. Obviously.

EDIT: added "obviously"

[Deimos]

I usually play trolls under trog and just level them like I would any other zerker (minus much in the way of early defensive skill training), but I feel like they fall off quite hard in late/post-lair compared to most anything else built for the role (and some not). Compare this to being hands down the easiest pre-lair race and that's why I don't really feel like trolls are any good. If I play a berserker, I'm probably going to get past the early game anyway - adding troll with that just makes the lategame massively harder (for me). This is me playing them wrong though, I don't think I've ever gotten a troll past vaults and thats definitely a thing a lot of people here can manage.

What about if you spend too much time on grass tiles, your troll turns into a beautiful vine stalker princess?

[duvessa]

I've heard this stuff about trolls "falling off in the mid-game" or whatever but I've never experienced it, nor have I ever heard of any argument whatsoever in favour of it. It's entirely possible that "lol you suck" is the answer here - to me it sounds about the same as saying "[deep dwarves/centaurs/spriggans] make the lategame massively harder". The extra base damage, +30% HP, regeneration, gourmand, etc. are permanent mutations, they don't disappear after the early game, and it's not even a situation like Dg where your disadvantages only become meaningful after you find an altar (not that trolls have disadvantages in the first place).

[Hirsch I]

I've heard this stuff about trolls "falling off in the mid-game" or whatever but I've never experienced it, nor have I ever heard of any argument whatsoever in favour of it. It's entirely possible that "lol you suck" is the answer here - to me it sounds about the same as saying "[deep dwarves/centaurs/spriggans] make the lategame massively harder". The extra base damage, +30% HP, regeneration, gourmand, etc. are permanent mutations, they don't disappear after the early game, and it's not even a situation like Dg where your disadvantages only become meaningful after you find an altar (not that trolls have disadvantages in the first place).

but but they have to eat so much, and there is so little food in this game...

[Sandman25]

I've heard this stuff about trolls "falling off in the mid-game" or whatever but I've never experienced it, nor have I ever heard of any argument whatsoever in favour of it

Really? I remember a discussion where it was mentioned that Troll's regen is great when you get 5 damage per turn but it is not that great when you get 50 damage per turn.
Here is my list of middle/late Troll problem:
1) unable to have high AC unless a dragon hide dropped so Tr trains Dodging despite large size penalty
2) when the dragon hide dropped, your investment in Dodging is temporary decreased, AC 25/EV 10 is not much better than AC 12/EV 18 (the numbers are taken out of the air just to demonstrate the idea)
3) low AC due to 2 armour slots missing (-6 AC at 0 Armour skill)
4) problems with getting additional resistances because of these 2 missing armour slots. Instead of wearing +6 ring of protection you are wearing a ring of protection from fire/magic.
5) large size makes Stealth useless (before Dithmengos at least)
6) really bad magic school aptitudes and low Int make Haste/Deflect Missiles/Controlled Blink/Phase Shift very expensive, aptitudes for Armour/Dodging/Fighting don't help either (comparing with Mi here).

[Deimos]

To me its always the defenses that end up doing me in. The lack of aux slots, most armor types, -2 apts, usually a weapon slot, and the slight reduction in EV from being large makes trolls usually a low AC/low EV class with a harder time getting resists. They hit like trucks, but pretty much anything running around with trog at this time is doing so with great maces/battleaxes/etc and hit like trucks too. Regeneration means quite a lot less when it comes to actually influencing a fight. Investing in evocations for a trog-friendly alternative to spells takes quite a lot longer. Etc etc - to me, it's really difficult.

[and into]

Here is my list of middle/late Troll problem:

I'm kind of reminded of centaurs, here. A lot of those things need to be that way, because if it were otherwise, the species would be completely broken. A troll that got great dex and has no armor restrictions or large size penalty would be broken, in ways similar to how a gargoyle with all current intrinsics in addition to +2 HP aptitude or felids with human HP levels or draconians who still get +AC but can wear anything they want, would likewise be broken.

HP is a defensive stat, and trolls get a big boost which is further enhanced/supported by regen, not to mention fighting skill. They can throw large rocks for ridiculous damage, and they have the best starting weapon in the game completely regardless of their starting class, which opens up a lot of space for various starts that can still just tab-tab-tab their way through most problems. They also get enough strength that you can actually feel and notice the damage boost, especially in mid-game, and large rocks begin to be widely available around the same time, right when Trolls are supposedly "falling behind in power."

Trolls don't get any reduction in armor from their body slot, either, just have some restrictions. At least an okay wearable armor of some type has probably dropped around the time that, again, Trolls are supposed to be falling behind. You can wear troll leather armor (okay doesn't add to your regen but 4 base AC is better than robe) and that should probably hold you until you get MDA or comparable some point not too long after Lair/Orc, usually.

Now if we are talking about berserkers in particular, MR++ and further regen comes with the god, so besides that, just one ring slot to swap in rC/rF/rN as needed should really be sufficient, especially given your HP.

[Sandman25]

and into,
I am not saying Trolls are weak but all those weaknesses which you listed are irrelevant early game so naturally Trolls become objectively weaker as game progresses. I guess Trolls are more powerful for experienced players who tend to lose characters early game and also they know how to fight tactically well without losing too much health too fast so both high regeneration and high HP overcompensate the weaknesses.

[duvessa]

1) unable to have high AC unless a dragon hide dropped so Tr trains Dodging despite large size penalty

How is this "mid-late game" specific? Plate armour exists.

2) when the dragon hide dropped, your investment in Dodging is temporary decreased, AC 25/EV 10 is not much better than AC 12/EV 18 (the numbers are taken out of the air just to demonstrate the idea)

This isn't a disadvantage of trolls, it's a disadvantage of body armour on everything in the game that can wear it. In fact it's actually less of a drawback for trolls than any other species since they have the highest strength in the game! And how on earth is it "mid-late game" specific?

3) low AC due to 2 armour slots missing (-6 AC at 0 Armour skill)
4) problems with getting additional resistances because of these 2 missing armour slots.

"this species with +30% HP has bad defences" (though I guess if you think 8 EV is as good as 13 AC it's not really surprising that you don't understand what resistances do either)

5) large size makes Stealth useless (before Dithmengos at least)
6) really bad magic school aptitudes and low Int make Haste/Deflect Missiles/Controlled Blink/Phase Shift very expensive, aptitudes for Armour/Dodging/Fighting don't help either (comparing with Mi here).

How are these less relevant early game, let alone irrelevant? There are several backgrounds that start with spells, and En trains stealth very early now that there's no stabbing skill.

[and into]

and into,
I am not saying Trolls are weak but all those weaknesses which you listed are irrelevant early game so naturally Trolls become objectively weaker as game progresses. I guess Trolls are more powerful for experienced players who tend to lose characters early game and also they know how to fight tactically well without losing too much health too fast so both high regeneration and high HP overcompensate the weaknesses.

The "weaknesses" or drawbacks are all things that apply throughout the game, and many of them, if anything, become less pronounced as the game goes on. It sucks that you can't throw on the first good armor you see, for instance, especially on a species with awesome strength and terrible spellcasting aptitudes and intelligence. However some kind of decent Troll-friendly body armor is likely to turn up as you transition into "mid-game" so that's one weakness (body armor restriction) that matters less as the game proceeds.

Large rocks become plentiful after Lair/Orc (typically around D11 or D12). Throwing and UC both scale very nicely/smoothly with skill, and the base damage of large rocks and your claws, especially when bolstered by your absurd strength, *more* than compensate for lackluster aptitudes in the relevant skills. That's true throughout entire game, but you can only count on early large rocks if you start as Hu or AM, but you'll be swimming in them in early double digit D.

Also, provided you aren't immediately hurting for sufficient offensive ability and struggling to kill stuff (and trolls don't have this problem, see above), bad aptitudes in utility/defense are easier to compensate for as the game goes on, not harder (one simply needs to be careful to set realistic goals and not spread yourself too thin).

Not having to worry about a starting weapon is primarily a benefit for early on, though on the other hand it can give trolls more versatility as they progress and develop than their apts alone would lead you to believe. (TrIE, TrNe, and others are very good starts in large part because even at 0 skill Troll unarmed is a really great starting weapon...) So I'd count that as somewhat ambiguous in terms of "early vs. late."

Last, and least: Admittedly, Troll's peripheral slot restrictions rarely matter early on, but will translate into lower AC later in game compared to a species with full slots. That's true, but it is relatively minor, and is more than compensated for by all that is pointed out above.

[Arrhythmia]

One of these days, I will mature as a troll, and stop posting here.

[Sar]

I like shields on my Trolls, a bunch of badEV for a pretty cheap XP price.

[Sandman25]

Plate armour exists.
In fact it's actually less of a drawback for trolls than any other species since they have the highest strength in the game! And how on earth is it "mid-late game" specific?
"this species with +30% HP has bad defences" (though I guess if you think 8 EV is as good as 13 AC it's not really surprising that you don't understand what resistances do either)
How are these less relevant early game, let alone irrelevant? There are several backgrounds that start with spells, and En trains stealth very early now that there's no stabbing skill.

I am not sure I should reply to you since duvessa's account looks hacked because minmay knows that Trolls cannot wear plate armour, aptitudes for Fighting/Dodging/Armour/Haste/Deflect Missles etc. don't matter on D1 and other species don't lose that much EV when swapping to dragon armour because they already use scale/chain/plate mail which punishes EV.

[damiac]

I've heard this stuff about trolls "falling off in the mid-game" or whatever but I've never experienced it, nor have I ever heard of any argument whatsoever in favour of it. It's entirely possible that "lol you suck" is the answer here - to me it sounds about the same as saying "[deep dwarves/centaurs/spriggans] make the lategame massively harder". The extra base damage, +30% HP, regeneration, gourmand, etc. are permanent mutations, they don't disappear after the early game, and it's not even a situation like Dg where your disadvantages only become meaningful after you find an altar (not that trolls have disadvantages in the first place).

Here is an argument. It is in favor of the argument that 'trolls fall off in the mid-game'. You've now witnessed it.

Trolls start off awesome, great weapon, regen, decent ev, not so terrible ac (gourmand + super fast metabolism is not an advantage...).

Regenning X hp a turn is more meaningful the closer your max hp is to X. As the game goes on and you level up, max hp gets larger, X does not, therefore trolls regen 'falls off' in strength throughout the whole game.

Trolls have bad apts. So everything but their UC skill is falling off consistantly, compared to average, throughout the entire game. This is 100% non debatable fact.

On top of bad apts, trolls need to train more dodging for the same EV payoff as a normal sized race. This contributes to 'poor defenses'

Trolls cannot wear armor that doesn't exist, so they're stuck in a robe, or at best, troll leather until way after mid game. Normal sized races can wear other armors. This is HUGE, as you're already -3 ac on boots, helm, and gloves before enchant armor scrolls come into play, -7 AC after considering enchant armor scrolls. These are the enchant armor scrolls and boots, helm, and gloves you'd be finding in mid-game, by the way.

Trolls also miss out on whatever branded gloves and boots may appear during midgame. Hard to quantify this one, but it's a disadvantage that's likely to start to be felt around midgame.

Trolls need to spend a lot more xp to get spells castable than an average race. Midgame is where you'd start getting some utility spells on an average race, assuming a non-spellcaster start, trolls are even worse off than just their bad apts make it appear, due to very low int. +1 str every 3 levels offsets the int a little, but certainly not completely.

Trolls can use a shield for cheaper than typical skill investment, due to large size. On the other hand, they get less SH due to large size. Overall I'd say trolls are better off than 'average' on this count.


So in my estimation, trolls start off on turn 0 as the best race, hands down. By midgame (for me, I'm calling the end of lair midgame) they're somewhat below average, due mainly to their bad defenses. They shoot back up to somewhere betweeen average and well above average once they find a dragon armor, depending on the dragon armor they find. But if you're finding dragon armor, you either got really lucky, or it's well after midgame.

But yeah, if you play Duvessa's version of crawl where trolls can wear plate armor, they don't really fall off too badly at all. In that version, apparently gourmand makes you more powerful as well...

[Sandman25]

On the other hand, they get less SH due to large size.

Are you sure?
Wiki says:

  Code:

SH = 0.5 * (Block × (1 + Shield skill/20 + Beogh bonus/30)
+ Stat bonus
+ Divine shield bonus (this bonus also works without a shield)
+ min(0.76×Shield skill, 1.14 + 0.38×Shield skill) (added only if the sum of the previous terms is > 0)
+ Mutation bonus) + Enchantment bonus

and I don't see size here.

[Deimos]

If I didn't mess anything up, the difference between a minotaur and troll at 27 shields/+0 shield/20 str/9 dex is 1 SH, 18 vs 17.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Regenning X hp a turn is more meaningful the closer your max hp is to X. As the game goes on and you level up, max hp gets larger, X does not, therefore trolls regen 'falls off' in strength throughout the whole game.

Except that X depends on max HP, and goes up when it does. So trolls large HP pool increases the regen rate before applying trolls natural regen.

Trolls have bad apts. So everything but their UC skill is falling off consistantly, compared to average, throughout the entire game. This is 100% non debatable fact.

True, trolls have bad apts, but it isn't as much of a problem as you might think. Crawl has enough XP that you are going to be able to get the right skills to the right levels in order to win the game, the extra levels that you might get with better apts are not that significant when you consider the natural benefits that trolls have. Particularly the fact that troll claws and large rocks are so good you really don't need to push UC and Throwing that high to get excellent damage output.

On top of bad apts, trolls need to train more dodging for the same EV payoff as a normal sized race. This contributes to 'poor defenses'

Trolls cannot wear armor that doesn't exist, so they're stuck in a robe, or at best, troll leather until way after mid game. Normal sized races can wear other armors. This is HUGE, as you're already -3 ac on boots, helm, and gloves before enchant armor scrolls come into play, -7 AC after considering enchant armor scrolls. These are the enchant armor scrolls and boots, helm, and gloves you'd be finding in mid-game, by the way.

Trolls also miss out on whatever branded gloves and boots may appear during midgame. Hard to quantify this one, but it's a disadvantage that's likely to start to be felt around midgame.

The EV penalty is something like 2EV, nothing to get too excited about, you still can just train Dodging and be fine. Even the -7AC isn't that big of a deal. Your defenses that would be EV and AC are HP and killing things really fast (not much stands up to a few rocks to the face). And as was pointed out, a shield on a troll is great, not only because of the low skill needed to get one working, but an additional slot for bonuses (the large size malus to SH is also so small as to be not that noticeable).

Trolls need to spend a lot more xp to get spells castable than an average race. Midgame is where you'd start getting some utility spells on an average race, assuming a non-spellcaster start, trolls are even worse off than just their bad apts make it appear, due to very low int. +1 str every 3 levels offsets the int a little, but certainly not completely.

You just have to give up the big spells and specialize a bit more, but casting with a Troll isn't that hard. Remember you will often be in a lighter armor with higher Str than many other melee fighters (at least the heavy armor ones), and you can even get reasonable Int by investing some points into it (and you will basically never have to put any into Str for armor).

Of course, I could be biased, they are my most won race.

[stickyfingers]

On the other hand, they get less SH due to large size.

Are you sure?
Wiki says:

  Code:

SH = 0.5 * (Block × (1 + Shield skill/20 + Beogh bonus/30)
+ Stat bonus
+ Divine shield bonus (this bonus also works without a shield)
+ min(0.76×Shield skill, 1.14 + 0.38×Shield skill) (added only if the sum of the previous terms is > 0)
+ Mutation bonus) + Enchantment bonus

and I don't see size here.

Yes, size does influence SH (link):

  Code:

if (player_wearing_slot(EQ_SHIELD))
{
    const item_def& item = you.inv[you.equip[EQ_SHIELD]];
    int size_factor = (you.body_size(PSIZE_TORSO) - SIZE_MEDIUM)
                    * (item.sub_type - ARM_LARGE_SHIELD);
    int base_shield = property(item, PARM_AC) * 2 + size_factor;

    int beogh_bonus = _player_armour_beogh_bonus(item);

    // bonus applied only to base, see above for effect:
    shield += base_shield * 50;
    shield += base_shield * you.skill(SK_SHIELDS, 5) / 2;
    shield += base_shield * beogh_bonus * 10 / 6;

    shield += item.plus * 200;

    if (item.sub_type == ARM_BUCKLER)
        stat = you.dex() * 38;
    else if (item.sub_type == ARM_LARGE_SHIELD)
        stat = you.dex() * 12 + you.strength() * 26;
    else
        stat = you.dex() * 19 + you.strength() * 19;
    stat = stat * (base_shield + 13) / 26;
}

It's been like that for a long time.

[duvessa]

Saying trolls are disadvantaged because of less AC/EV is like saying millionaires are disadvantaged because they don't get food stamps. It's canceled out by something that accomplishes the same things and more (a million dollars in the case of millionaires, +30% HP in the case of trolls).

minmay knows that Trolls cannot wear plate armour

Read the previous sentence of that post again. Remember, I was asking how you thought this "disadvantage" was early-game specific. Metal armour is most common compared to dragon hides early game.

aptitudes for Fighting/Dodging/Armour/Haste/Deflect Missles etc. don't matter on D1

Fighting: accuracy and the flat portion of the HP bonus matter more on D:1 than they do anywhere else in the game...
Haste/Deflect Missiles: obviously I assumed you were talking about magic aptitudes in general instead of two spells you picked seemingly completely randomly. You might as well argue that Te's +3 conjurations aptitude doesn't matter early game because you can't cast orb of destruction on d:1.

[Sandman25]

Saying trolls are disadvantaged because of less AC/EV is like saying millionaires are disadvantaged because they don't get food stamps. It's canceled out by something that accomplishes the same things and more (a million dollars in the case of millionaires, +30% HP in the case of trolls).

Are you serious here? I prefer to have monsters like Stone Giants miss me instead of having 50 HP more. Also extra AC really helps, it's like having passive Shroud of Golubria.

Read the previous sentence of that post again. Remember, I was asking how you thought this "disadvantage" was early-game specific. Metal armour is most common compared to dragon hides early game.

Read my post again. Remember, I was describing "middle-late" game problems. Everyone has AC problems early game but Troll can continue having them up to Vaults.

Fighting: accuracy and the flat portion of the HP bonus matter more on D:1 than they do anywhere else in the game...

TrFi starts with 22 HP and Fighting 2.4 (aptitude -2), with Fighting 3.6 (aptitude+2) it would be 23 HP. Huge difference, isn't it? Please don't tell me it will be less than 3.6, my point still will stand.

Haste/Deflect Missiles: obviously I assumed you were talking about magic aptitudes in general instead of two spells you picked seemingly completely randomly. You might as well argue that Te's +3 conjurations aptitude doesn't matter early game because you can't cast orb of destruction on d:1.

Do you still remember we are talking about middle-late game here? Obviously Haste is spell number 1 for Zot, many good players have it castable by Vaults and even earlier. I hope you are not choosing your spells randomly.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Are you serious here? I prefer to have monsters like Stone Giants miss me instead of having 50 HP more. Also extra AC really helps, it's like having passive Shroud of Golubria.

I put it to you again that the EV malus is really small. The real reason Trolls have low EV is because they have low Dex, something which is true of other normal races (ghouls, for example), most which don't have the natural bonuses of trolls. That 50HP more is going to be better than the really small difference in the number of times a Stone Giant hits you. And that consideration does not take into account the fact that rocks, and even claws, can take down a Stone Giant so fast you won't take that many hits and you will still have that extra 50HP. Plus, again, trolls have great access to a slightly worse form of EV, SH, with a one-handed weapon (UC) that is potentially as strong as any two-hander.

Read my post again. Remember, I was describing "middle-late" game problems. Everyone has AC problems early game but Troll can continue having them up to Vaults.

Yes, with bad luck with branches and hides, you may still be in a robe in Vaults, but there are plenty of characters where this will be true, and therefore their AC will be low. That is why you train Dodging on a troll, particularly one that hasn't found any armor! Your EV won't be great, but in combo with a large HP pool (and a little bit of the regen), it tends to balance out.

Do you still remember we are talking about middle-late game here? Obviously Haste is spell number 1 for Zot, many good players have it castable by Vaults and even earlier. I hope you are not choosing your spells randomly.

You certainly do not need Haste castable to have a fairly straight forward Zot run. I mean you probably have a few !haste and maybe even /haste by then, more than enough for Zot:5 and the orb run. And even if you don't, most likely you are going to have plenty of other options to deal with stuff in Zot (like big fucking rocks to the face). Seriously, large rocks take down OoFs and alichs like they were paper.

[Sandman25]

nilsbloodaxe,
Yes, Tr can have low EV and low AC in Vaults.
Other "robe in Vaults" characters are either heavy magic users like DE/HE or high EV species like Sp/Ko/Te/Mf or even both. Primarily melee characters can use at least leather or ring mail at this point.
My point was that at least Mi/HO/DD/Na eventually become more powerful than Tr(talking about primarily melee, defense and dangerous situations here).

[Lasty]

with a one-handed weapon (UC) that is potentially as strong as any two-hander.

By which you mean "that is the strongest weapon in the game, aside perhaps from Scythe of Curses/Plutonium Sword." Even w/o claws 3, UC 27 slightly exceeds the best non-artifacts.

[Sandman25]

with a one-handed weapon (UC) that is potentially as strong as any two-hander.

By which you mean "that is the strongest weapon in the game, aside perhaps from Scythe of Curses/Plutonium Sword." Even w/o claws 3, UC 27 slightly exceeds the best non-artifacts.

I believe +9 claymore of holy wrath does more damage to demons/undead.

[stickyfingers]

with a one-handed weapon (UC) that is potentially as strong as any two-hander.

By which you mean "that is the strongest weapon in the game, aside perhaps from Scythe of Curses/Plutonium Sword." Even w/o claws 3, UC 27 slightly exceeds the best non-artifacts.

I believe +9 claymore of holy wrath does more damage to demons/undead.

Average damage with Str 23, Dex 16 (kind of normal for HO), fighting 20, UC 27, LBl 27, Armour 17 (with FDA where applicable), no claws, vs Ancient Lich:
+9 claymore of HW: 35
1-handed UC: 21
2-handed UC: 25
blade hands: 54
1-handed statue form unarmed: 43
2-handed statue form unarmed: 50
dragon form: 83

[damiac]

I wasn't arguing trolls are bad, by the way, only that the argument that they fall off in midgame is a valid one. And as I said, once they do find a viable armour, I'd put them at average or better. But there's a definite slump in midgame where some of your early advantages don't have the same pull they used to, and your drawbacks are still in full effect.

+30% hp is definitely nice, but I'd much rather take 30% less damage on average due to higher AC and EV. With +30% hp, and low AC, every little hit adds up. With +0% hp, and high AC, little hits don't do anything.

Anyway, my trolls tend to die more in lair/lair branches than they do pre-lair, whereas most other characters I play feel weaker earlier, but more survivable through lair branches.

[nilsbloodaxe]

+30% hp is definitely nice, but I'd much rather take 30% less damage on average due to higher AC and EV. With +30% hp, and low AC, every little hit adds up. With +0% hp, and high AC, little hits don't do anything.

I would take that too, considering that 30% less damage is not equivalent to 30% more HP, it's better (it's equivalent to about 43% more HP), but I get your point. That being said, however, remember that you always get the benefit of the +30% HP, but AC is a dice roll.

with a one-handed weapon (UC) that is potentially as strong as any two-hander.

By which you mean "that is the strongest weapon in the game, aside perhaps from Scythe of Curses/Plutonium Sword." Even w/o claws 3, UC 27 slightly exceeds the best non-artifacts.

Agreed, I was leaving it open to the possibility that your UC skill still was low.

[Maynot]

I do like the idea of an evolving troll at about LV14-16 to become deep troll and around LV22-24 to become rock troll. Each would provide a few point (2-4) AC boost (or increase thick fur/tough skin mutation) and one could slow metabolism one stage. Slowing the metabolism would really be big in areas that are filled with few/no edible corpses.

[Siegurt]

On top of bad apts, trolls need to train more dodging for the same EV payoff as a normal sized race. This contributes to 'poor defenses'

Trolls cannot wear armor that doesn't exist, so they're stuck in a robe, or at best, troll leather until way after mid game. Normal sized races can wear other armors. This is HUGE, as you're already -3 ac on boots, helm, and gloves before enchant armor scrolls come into play, -7 AC after considering enchant armor scrolls. These are the enchant armor scrolls and boots, helm, and gloves you'd be finding in mid-game, by the way.

Trolls also miss out on whatever branded gloves and boots may appear during midgame. Hard to quantify this one, but it's a disadvantage that's likely to start to be felt around midgame.

The EV penalty is something like 2EV, nothing to get too excited about, you still can just train Dodging and be fine. Even the -7AC isn't that big of a deal. Your defenses that would be EV and AC are HP and killing things really fast (not much stands up to a few rocks to the face). And as was pointed out, a shield on a troll is great, not only because of the low skill needed to get one working, but an additional slot for bonuses (the large size malus to SH is also so small as to be not that noticeable).

FWIW, troll's size penalty for evasion is 2 base EV (10->8) and 10% less from dex+dodge

[nilsbloodaxe]

FWIW, troll's size penalty for evasion is 2 base EV (10->8) and 10% less from dex+dodge

So a bit more like 4-6 EV (I never actually did any calculations), but I think the point still stands, it isn't that big of a loss, when you consider the benefits of a Troll.

[Bloax]

  Code:

36 Dex, 27 Dodging: Tr = 40 EV, Hu = 43 EV
36 Dex, 20 Dodging: Tr = 34 EV, Hu = 37 EV
36 Dex, 14 Dodging: Tr = 28 EV, Hu = 31 EV
20 Dex, 27 Dodging: Tr = 32 EV, Hu = 35 EV
20 Dex, 20 Dodging: Tr = 27 EV, Hu = 31 EV
20 Dex, 14 Dodging: Tr = 22 EV, Hu = 25 EV

[jejorda2]

So how many death yaks does a troll have to kill to get 30 EV vs a human?

[XuaXua]

So how many death yaks does a troll have to kill to get 30 EV vs a human?

As many death yaks as a troll can kill when that troll can kill a human.