Vestibule Violator
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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Vestibule Violator
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dck wrote:the speciesism in this place is disgusting.
Halls Hopper
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Hopeless wrote:dck wrote:the speciesism in this place is disgusting.
So you weren't a fan of the Pheldagrif?
Swamp Slogger
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damiac wrote:What does 'no, dude, just no' refer to? Blanket statements about races or genders aren't considered prejudiced? I disagree, and even the person who made the statement agreed it was an unfair generalization.
Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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One-Eyed Jack wrote:Judit Polgár is easily and uncontroversially the best female chess player of all time. To quote someone else, "Polgár and her two older sisters, Grandmaster Susan and International Master Sofia, were part of an educational experiment carried out by their father László Polgár, in an attempt to prove that children could make exceptional achievements if trained in a specialist subject from a very early age. 'Geniuses are made, not born,' was László's thesis. He and his wife Klára educated their three daughters at home, with chess as the specialist subject."
I think this has obvious and direct implications for crawl
For most of us white males we do "miss out" on what's really going on with race and gender because we don't *have* to think about it too hard, most of the time.
Making generalizations about anyone is poor form. But you don't get to go "hey look you're just as bad."
We're not considered real geeks. Because...why?
Arguing against her from a statistical or scientific perspective makes as much sense as asking if a film review is peer reviewed or requesting the statistical distribution of an autobiography. She isn't doing science and she doesn't claim to be doing science so it doesn't make sense to hold her project to scientific standards. This project is talking about how women are depicted in video games and the experience of being a woman playing video games and participating in video game culture. You may not like what she has to say, but if you want to argue against it, you need to argue against what it is rather than what you'd like it to be.
Answer to the original question: go ask them nicely.
Leafsnail wrote:So your position is that the difficulties associated with playing Dungeon Crawl and playing basketball in the NBA are comparable? Or are you just being pedantic for no reason?
ergo you're not allowed to have racist opinions
Abyss Ambulator
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Nemora wrote:zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Perpetually, whenever these discussions come up- no matter the community- I hear, time and time again, that the problems are caused by the "small but vocal majority." And I have never, in my experience, found that to be true. We have a habit of thinking that sexism or racism or other isms are only really perpetrated by the terrible bigots. And people have a bad habit of jumping from "someone said what I did was sexist" to "they're saying I'm a sexist," which apparently means "they think I'm a terrible bigot" because apparently sexism is only perpetrated by the terrible bigots. It's not.
Yes, there are some that are extremely vocal and virulent about their hate- but it is actually microagressions that typically show me what a community thinks of my belonging there. Frequently, these are people who'd never think that they were doing something sexist/racist/etc. but... their actions, in small ways, tell me otherwise. When people say the problems are perpetrated by a few, they're shoving off the blame and not listening to how they, personally, could do better.
One thing that people need to acknowledge is that, thanks to the social power structures we're acculturated with from birth, all of us have, on some level, absorbed some amount of sexism or racism or homophobia, etc. And even when we're doing our best to dismantle that, we're going to make mistakes. So when we do make mistakes, we need to be willing to 1) acknowledge that we fucked up, 2) apologize, 3) listen, 4) work to do better in the future, 5) accept that our mistake might have pissed some people off and admit to ourselves that they have a good reason for that, and 6) not get defensive even in the face of that anger.
Slime Squisher
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote: ...
It would be hilarious if people were saying it on a comedy show instead of in real life.
Shoals Surfer
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That whole idea that some people are more oppressed than others only nurtures inequality and hatred.
Now that I've claimed to be a victim of something, everybody in this thread has completely disregarded everything I have to say
Swamp Slogger
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:It's not about how bad it is or who is in the wrong. That whole idea that some people are more oppressed than others only nurtures inequality and hatred.
Barkeep
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Dungeon Master
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:It's not about how bad it is or who is in the wrong. That whole idea that some people are more oppressed than others only nurtures inequality and hatred. Your argument basically amounts to "it's okay to hate white people because they haven't gotten their equal share of hate yet".
But what used to mean a kindred sensibility no longer does, so now I'm constantly calculating and recalculating the geekiness of everyone I interact with to try to know how safe I am. It makes me at times a bit of a jerk to people simply for being friendly, because friendliness does nothing to make me feel safe or comfortable.
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Whether she claims it is scientific doesn't matter. The videos frequently receive hostility because people frequently present them as scientific. If someone argued a JFK conspiracy theory using the Oliver Stone movie as evidence, you would quite naturally object to the shoddy science. Her videos have already been claimed in this thread as a non-anecdotal example. And you are defending them with a comparison to film reviews, which are anecdotal almost by definition.
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Please explain in full detail which of my opinions was racist. Because "sounds a lot like" means fuck all.ergo you're not allowed to have racist opinions
Temple Termagant
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Pandemonium Purger
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Vestibule Violator
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twelwe wrote:God dAMn It I Jus tWanted More Girls,people....
Slime Squisher
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Lasty wrote:So, you said you "have to act like it's all a big crazy coincidence that the NBA has more black men than white women" which means that you don't believe it's a coincidence. Choosing to specify white/black in your example makes it clear that you feel that whiteness and blackness have relevance to the example. I draw the obvious inference from that statement that you most likely mean to say that black people are, for some unspecified reason, particularly good at basketball. Almost every possible formulation of that opinion is racist, but in my response I clearly specified that if your formulation is a race-essentialist (racist) one, then I condemn it as such.
Ziggurat Zagger
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kroki wrote:Is it racist when...
Siegurt wrote:kroki wrote:Is it racist when...
Yes.
Fundamentally, attributing stereotypes (of whatever sort) to a particular individual or group of people based on knowledge of their race and nothing else is racist, that's what the term means.
Now if you'd instead of saying "walking through black neighborhood" you'd said "walking through a poor neighborhood" that would be classist, rather than racist, and if you'd said "walking through a violent neighborhood" that would make you violentist.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Siegurt wrote:I object to your objection
A pacifist is someone who believes strongly in peace, I was going for someone who "strongly associates certain sterotypes (or is prejudiced) against violence and violent people, regardless of their own commitment to peace"
Zot Zealot
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Shoals Surfer
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Why can't people just acknowledge that black people make better athletes on average
Crypt Cleanser
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kroki wrote:I am sorry for being blunt but I can hardly believe someone would be so brainwashed by politically correct propaganda. Why can't people just acknowledge that black people make better athletes on average and there's nothing offensive about it. I am white as flour and I wouldn't get my panties in twist because some black would shit on me in basketball or marathon, and they shouldn't get mad when whites do better in academia or anything else. Is it racist when a white guy avoids walking through black neighborhood because he knows that he's going to be harassed at best and mugged at knife/gun point at worst? It's funny cause whites on an online crusade against "racism" are usually people who never had to deal with life outside their middle/upper class neighborhoods
Lair Larrikin
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Crypt Cleanser
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tabstorm wrote:Reminder that this is a troll thread.
Crypt Cleanser
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It's funny cause whites on an online crusade against "racism" are usually people who never had to deal with life outside their middle/upper class neighborhoods
If you think anywhere in the Western World is racist (sexist homophobic), go and try and live in another country with a homogenous population. As a white man, or any other racial group you will encounter REAL racism.
Tartarus Sorceror
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twelwe wrote:.now how do we get more girls........the real topic
Halls Hopper
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damiac wrote:Nemora wrote:zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Perpetually, whenever these discussions come up- no matter the community- I hear, time and time again, that the problems are caused by the "small but vocal majority." And I have never, in my experience, found that to be true. We have a habit of thinking that sexism or racism or other isms are only really perpetrated by the terrible bigots. And people have a bad habit of jumping from "someone said what I did was sexist" to "they're saying I'm a sexist," which apparently means "they think I'm a terrible bigot" because apparently sexism is only perpetrated by the terrible bigots. It's not.
Yes, there are some that are extremely vocal and virulent about their hate- but it is actually microagressions that typically show me what a community thinks of my belonging there. Frequently, these are people who'd never think that they were doing something sexist/racist/etc. but... their actions, in small ways, tell me otherwise. When people say the problems are perpetrated by a few, they're shoving off the blame and not listening to how they, personally, could do better.
That's a fair point. I think part of this is due to the way these subjects are approached in pop culture, where when someone is 'proven' to be a 'bigot' they're instantly thrown in with the worst people in the world, so we sort of lose touch with the concept of more subtle forms of sexism and/or racism. So whenever someone brings up sexism or racism, my mind instantly jumps to the extremes, which there are plenty of examples of. But I suppose one could say the more subtle forms are actually more harmful, since it's easy to just write off those extreme examples as 'some people are assholes".One thing that people need to acknowledge is that, thanks to the social power structures we're acculturated with from birth, all of us have, on some level, absorbed some amount of sexism or racism or homophobia, etc. And even when we're doing our best to dismantle that, we're going to make mistakes. So when we do make mistakes, we need to be willing to 1) acknowledge that we fucked up, 2) apologize, 3) listen, 4) work to do better in the future, 5) accept that our mistake might have pissed some people off and admit to ourselves that they have a good reason for that, and 6) not get defensive even in the face of that anger.
This, of course, is true, we are a product of our culture.
But that brings me back to what I said previously, that our culture likes to deal in extremes. If someone says "That was a sexist thing to say!" now I feel that they're saying I'm one of those horrible hateful people, which I do not think I am. So now I'm going to feel offended myself, and probably react defensively. Our culture doesn't like to help people learn to act in a non-offensive way, our culture likes to slap a label on someone and write them off. And we don't want to get labelled "Bigot".
So, I agree with what you're saying, getting defensive isn't productive, and if we do offend someone, we should try to correct the offensive behavior (assuming the offense taken was valid*). But we should also remember that when a person does do something offensive, our first instinct should be to correct them, not to label them.
I appreciate you taking the time to calmly express your thoughts, it's rare that a discussion like this (especially on the internet) is productive, but I feel I've learned something here. Hopefully seeing my viewpoints was useful to you in some way.
*Meaning, some people are offended by stuff like seeing interracial couples, or gay people holding hands. I don't consider those things to be something valid to take offense over.
Pandemonium Purger
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Also, on being a nerd/geek: I am in agreement that the terms have been purloined by the public (or hollywood if you blame a tv show, Im good with that.) The truth of the terms have become known. People are and can be nerdy and geeky in myriad ways. Star Wars geeks are no less so than those who dress up like Klingons. Or those who cosplay. Or those (like myself and many other gamers) who started out playing D&D or some other weird intellectual pursuit. Being a nerd/geek is not something that should be put down or held as a pejorative to those who are socially awkward and who have stilted (or completely broken) communication skills.
Lair Larrikin
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Hopeless wrote:a) Hatred is a poison. Partaking of it only feeds it and makes it worse. So that is why I agree with the sentiment you expressed here.
b) However, there is a reason why white men get dumped on now: Years of dumping on others (and it goes on even still with White Male Privilege a thing still.)
c) Better to end oppression via finding common ground, working on communication and making peace than to be bitter, hostile and angry with the world because you feel put upon. As I said before, hate begets hatred and is not its own cure.
Vaults Vanquisher
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Zoopy Joobles wrote:This stuff is nonsense. We used to do things like go to the moon. Let's get back to it.
Halls Hopper
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:We're not considered real geeks. Because...why?
I'm sure I'll get all kinds of shit for even daring to make this comparison, but being a geek wasn't cool twenty years ago. Look at the portrayal of geeks in movies, TV, and videogames (oh ha ha Otacon pissed his pants, get it, because nerds are pathetic losers, it is so funny everybody). Have you heard of the concept of cultural appropriation? If you can watch an episode of The Big Bang Theory without feeling insulted and angry, congratulations, I hate you.
Now that I've claimed to be a victim of something, everybody in this thread has completely disregarded everything I have to say, so giving some personal experience can't possibly make it any worse. I clearly remember the moment I became a "geek" in elementary school. I casually mentioned that I didn't like Star Wars at a moment when about half the classroom heard it. That was it. Social life over. For me, "conversation skills" came to mean "treat every verbal exchange as a walk across eggshells". I'm so afraid of sounding boring or weird that most people think I don't like to talk (Ha!). If I start talking about negative edge, or Yu-Gi-Oh!, or Asimov to the wrong person, I've just made a horrible impression and ruined a relationship. And sure that's probably an exaggeration in most cases, but it's happened more than once, so I don't take chances. For most of my young life, another person being a "geek" meant that I could speak freely without worry of driving them away. Even if we had no interests in common, we were sure to be able to appreciate those interests.
What I'm trying to say is this: Being a geek used to indicate a certain kind of enthusiasm. The meaning is ever-broadening, to the point where someone who occasionally remembers to watch Doctor Who is liable to call themselves a geek on that basis. And I should be happy about that. But what used to mean a kindred sensibility no longer does, so now I'm constantly calculating and recalculating the geekiness of everyone I interact with to try to know how safe I am. It makes me at times a bit of a jerk to people simply for being friendly, because friendliness does nothing to make me feel safe or comfortable.
Maybe this is just my issue and nobody else thinks like that. I kind of hope so.
Lair Larrikin
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Leafsnail wrote:This is a really impressive non sequitur.Zoopy Joobles wrote:This stuff is nonsense. We used to do things like go to the moon. Let's get back to it.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Zoopy Joobles wrote:Hopeless wrote:a) Hatred is a poison. Partaking of it only feeds it and makes it worse. So that is why I agree with the sentiment you expressed here.
b) However, there is a reason why white men get dumped on now: Years of dumping on others (and it goes on even still with White Male Privilege a thing still.)
c) Better to end oppression via finding common ground, working on communication and making peace than to be bitter, hostile and angry with the world because you feel put upon. As I said before, hate begets hatred and is not its own cure.
Hatred is a poison? Is this some kind of Oprah inspired New Age garbage? Hatred is a justified emotion. If somebody rapes my wife, I'm going to hate them, and if that's all I do, they will have gotten off very lucky.
White men, for the last 2000 years, repelled invasion after invasion of Europe. Both the Ottomans and the Moors demanded tributes of white slaves and virgins. I will just give a passing mention of the Arab slave trade, and the fact that the very word slave comes from the Slavic people. White people are the only ones who worked to stop slavery for moral reasons. Not that we got it right all the time, but singling out white men as being somehow intrinsically and uniquely evil is a theme that is based on total inexcusable ignorance of history. I lived in Asia for 10 years, and guess what, Asian men have privilege in their own countries. They aren't allowing mass immigration, so they don't have to be constantly burdened my these asinine conversations, which is quite nice, even though I was an outsider and subjected to racism on a daily basis that would make national headlines were it to happen here. I didn't let it bother me, because I'm not a whining little pussy.
People are not equal. Some people are smarter than others. Some people are stronger. Some people are more talented in certain areas. Labeling this as 'oppression' because all outcomes are not equal is frankly, insane. By what metrics are Social Justice causes measured? This will simply go on forever, as more and more victim groups invent themselves and point quivering fingers at groups where they are not represented enough. How many Amazonian Tribesmen at Harvard? RACISM! How many women have gone to the moon? SEXISM! How many LGBTQQIP2SAA are represented in the government of the Congo? HOMOPHOBIA! How long before this LGBTQQIP2SAA breaks its unholy coalition and starts accusing itself of oppression?
This stuff is nonsense. We used to do things like go to the moon. Let's get back to it.
Visit a university campus and see how much time and energy is devoted to this crap. If you are currently attending one, try getting out and learning how the real world works.
Vaults Vanquisher
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twelwe wrote:
no one fucks me in my own thread afaik. now i`m going to quote you on stupid nonsense to prove you spout nothing but stupid nonsense. and never try to fuck me again me again. or i will own you like soAlso, on being a nerd/geek: I am in agreement that the terms have been purloined by the public (or hollywood if you blame a tv show, Im good with that.) The truth of the terms have become known. People are and can be nerdy and geeky in myriad ways. Star Wars geeks are no less so than those who dress up like Klingons. Or those who cosplay. Or those (like myself and many other gamers) who started out playing D&D or some other weird intellectual pursuit. Being a nerd/geek is not something that should be put down or held as a pejorative to those who are socially awkward and who have stilted (or completely broken) communication skills.
if you are socialy awkward it isn;t the fault of d&d or cosplay or star wars. or racial relations. or anything. it is your lack of sociable ability and `neediness` or whatever he hell you`re pinning it on has no connection, and any connection you make between nerdiness and social inability your own fault. you called it weird. so question your own motivations first.
Vaults Vanquisher
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Lair Larrikin
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Zoopy Joobles wrote:Hopeless wrote:a) Hatred is a poison. Partaking of it only feeds it and makes it worse. So that is why I agree with the sentiment you expressed here.
b) However, there is a reason why white men get dumped on now: Years of dumping on others (and it goes on even still with White Male Privilege a thing still.)
c) Better to end oppression via finding common ground, working on communication and making peace than to be bitter, hostile and angry with the world because you feel put upon. As I said before, hate begets hatred and is not its own cure.
Hatred is a poison? Is this some kind of Oprah inspired New Age garbage? Hatred is a justified emotion. If somebody rapes my wife, I'm going to hate them, and if that's all I do, they will have gotten off very lucky.
White men, for the last 2000 years, repelled invasion after invasion of Europe. Both the Ottomans and the Moors demanded tributes of white slaves and virgins. I will just give a passing mention of the Arab slave trade, and the fact that the very word slave comes from the Slavic people. White people are the only ones who worked to stop slavery for moral reasons. Not that we got it right all the time, but singling out white men as being somehow intrinsically and uniquely evil is a theme that is based on total inexcusable ignorance of history. I lived in Asia for 10 years, and guess what, Asian men have privilege in their own countries. They aren't allowing mass immigration, so they don't have to be constantly burdened my these asinine conversations, which is quite nice, even though I was an outsider and subjected to racism on a daily basis that would make national headlines were it to happen here. I didn't let it bother me, because I'm not a whining little pussy.
People are not equal. Some people are smarter than others. Some people are stronger. Some people are more talented in certain areas. Labeling this as 'oppression' because all outcomes are not equal is frankly, insane. By what metrics are Social Justice causes measured? This will simply go on forever, as more and more victim groups invent themselves and point quivering fingers at groups where they are not represented enough. How many Amazonian Tribesmen at Harvard? RACISM! How many women have gone to the moon? SEXISM! How many LGBTQQIP2SAA are represented in the government of the Congo? HOMOPHOBIA! How long before this LGBTQQIP2SAA breaks its unholy coalition and starts accusing itself of oppression?
This stuff is nonsense. We used to do things like go to the moon. Let's get back to it.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Zoopy Joobles wrote:How exactly is power measured?
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