Removing Popcorn

[Klown]

CYC because there's not much to say.

There seems to be a lot of 'popcorn' monsters throughout the game, especially mid-game. Just some obvious examples, seeing stray kobolds on D:8, worms and bats in the Lair, rats past D:3, etc. They provide no challenge, and at these points in the game their XP is basically nothing.

Slightly less obvious cases lead to tediously tabbing through levels, and overconfidence.

While consistently 'dangerous' fights would slow the game down, it'd also keep the gameplay engaging throughout.

#nomoregreenrats

[bcadren]

On some levels, I agree on others...it's hard to define the 'popcorn' because it may vary from character to character AND removing the popcorn from Orc...well that's all the plain orcs; so you are left with Warriors, Wizards and higher...which completely changes the flow of the branch.

Similarly on Tomb:2 and 3, you'd be left with Mummy Priests and Greater Mummies...

IN a lot of cases those weaker monsters that you can tab through on their own stand to...keep you from hitting the smiter directly; or keep you from running from a real threat (take all the relatively weak Human enemies n vaults).

[Sar]

Somewhat related - kill all bats in Shoals with extreme prejudice. Or replace them with harpies.

[ackack]

While consistently 'dangerous' fights would slow the game down, it'd also keep the gameplay engaging throughout.

I strongly disagree. In places where you have long stretches of consistently dangerous fights (e.g. modern Lair branches imo), I find the game bogs down pretty bad. Palate cleansing monsters are a good thing.

[Sar]

It's one thing when monsters are not terribly challenging; it's another when you get regular orcs in Depths (as parts of orc bands), yaks post-Lair, goddamn bats in Shoals that seem to exist there solely to annoy me, etc. I would not wish to remove all regular nagas from Snake, but I don't think removing those small constricting snakes that are the first snake you typically encounter (forgot the name), adders and maybe water moccasins from Snake would be a bad thing.

[Klown]

Yeah just the major ones. I'm seeing a giant gecko in lair right now...which isn't a threat past D:3 even for bad combos. Green Rats probably deserve some pre-lair love. By Lair, I just hold tab and watch as they surround my guy and do nothing.

[Sar]

I think green rats in Lair are sort of OK because they come in large groups and might give some pure caster an idea to grab that elec dagger and start tabbing. Geckos though, no.

[duvessa]

I'd definitely like it if regular nagas were removed from Snake.

I strongly disagree. In places where you have long stretches of consistently dangerous fights (e.g. modern Lair branches imo), I find the game bogs down pretty bad. Palate cleansing monsters are a good thing.

I strongly disagree that modern Lair branches are dangerous, and I think they make the game bog down because 1. they (and crawl) are way too long and 2. they seem specifically designed to require playing slowly (but not to be genuinely dangerous).

If anything I think the game bogs down the least on the levels where fights are most consistently dangerous (i.e. D:1 and D:2).

[Hirsch I]

i got some pretty good damage from a large group of green rats with my current OgBe.
no armor nor evasion can do that. I dont think they are bad.

[TeshiAlair]

I think that a lot of popcorn is designed/ends up being potentially dangerous if you leave it alone, which I like. A single kobold isn't an issue, but a kobold pack with blowguns can be an issue while fighting greater foes, which I think is kinda neat.

[bcadren]

Somewhat related - kill all bats in Shoals with extreme prejudice. Or replace them with harpies.

Or replace them with fire bats so they'd leave a trail of steam. Muahaha. (just a weird thought).

[Zicher]

A kobold in Vaults may seem out of place, sure - until it shouts and wakes up that nearby yaktaur pack you were sneaking towards for some quick stabkills. Popcorn can still be dangerous.

[Klown]

Using the monster list from wiki so if it's inaccurate, nevermind whatever inaccuracies.

Just The Lair here(they're fine for vaults/random packs of doom). These could be removed from showing up past D:11(and The Lair/all branches there and beyond). imo.

Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, giant centipede, scorpion, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, adder, Giant frog, Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana.

^not sure if anything got switched around in 0.14 so pardon mistakes or wiki errors.

[bcadren]

Using the monster list from wiki so if it's inaccurate, nevermind whatever inaccuracies.

Just The Lair here(they're fine for vaults/random packs of doom). These could be removed from showing up past D:11(and The Lair/all branches there and beyond). imo.

Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, giant centipede, scorpion, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, adder, Giant frog, Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana.

^not sure if anything got switched around in 0.14 so pardon mistakes or wiki errors.

Worker ants? definitely not; they go from rare to showing up with Soldiers and queens in the lair...the added poison is horrible.

Giant centipede, really? those are really rare as it is and more powerful than most the rest of your list.

Scorpions actually don't really even show up until lair and in some runs you see less of them than emperors (depending on the spider you get).

Giant Frog is also powerful.

*shortens list*

Giant cockroach, giant mite, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, Giant newt, giant gecko.

that could probably be removed from lair if it hasn't already...

[Sphara]

Annoying as they may be especially for a low HP caster, i consider green rats as piety rats.

[duvessa]

Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, giant centipede, scorpion, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, adder, Giant frog, Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana.

Giant cockroach, worker ant, and ball python already don't generate in lair (but there are some vaults that place worker ants) and giant centipedes were removed from the game already.

Here are the monsters that generate in lair that I consider thoroughly harmless in lair: giant newt, giant gecko, iguana, bat, rat, quokka, jackal, porcupine, hound, giant frog, black bear, worm, adder, green rat, giant mite, scorpion, giant slug, hippogriff, goliath beetle, sheep, giant spore, catoblepas, brain worm, oklob plant, elephant slug, wandering mushroom, boring beetle, boulder beetle.

"Thoroughly harmless" means I have excluded monsters that I would very much call "harmless" such as crocodile, basilisk, yak, and hydra, but that are still able to kill you in rare circumstances (such as being a naga/Chei, taking a blind escape hatch/stairs, or being particularly inattentive). The monsters in my "thoroughly harmless" list can basically only kill you if you make a typo or are spectacularly inattentive/idiotic.

[bcadren]

giant centipedes were removed from the game already.

They might have been removed from spawning, but they are still in the Violet Keep of Menkaure and one of the sewer entry vaults...

[Bloax]

I think green rats in Lair are sort of OK because they come in large groups and might give some pure caster an idea to grab that elec dagger and start tabbing.

Green rats can actually be very dangerous to high hp/no defenses builds (like an ogre with a big club) if you don't lure them to a less open area so that they won't gang up on you.

giant centipedes were removed from the game already.

They might have been removed from spawning, but they are still in the Violet Keep of Menkaure and one of the sewer entry vaults...

enemies that do not spawn naturally are completely out of this discussion

[duvessa]

giant centipedes were removed from the game already.

They might have been removed from spawning, but they are still in the Violet Keep of Menkaure and one of the sewer entry vaults...

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4dd8b08a893a

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Bats in Shoals are just silly. They are popcorn on D1, what are they doing in a place where the player is XL15+? They're no different from butterflies at that point, except that they deliberately attack you for no purpose other than annoyance.

"Popcorn" monsters are very good and the best part of the game according to many (Pre-Lair) has plenty.

they seem specifically designed to require playing slowly (but not to be genuinely dangerous).

yes i hate depths too

[Klown]

Using the monster list from wiki so if it's inaccurate, nevermind whatever inaccuracies.
The Lair: Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, giant centipede, scorpion, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, adder, Giant frog, Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana.

Mostly taking the 'laughable' ones here. Even with any flavor they bring, what's the difference? You'll see lots of snakes in snake pits anyways, etc.

Orcish Mines: Goblin & Hobgoblin.
Shoals: Bat.
Snake Pit: Adder, Ball Python.
Spider's Nest: Scorpion, Giant Cockroach, Giant Mite, Worm.
The Slime Pits: Ooze.

[Lyrick]

It tops off your piety and is a blood bank for my Vampires. I vote to keep popcorn

[Klown]

It tops off your piety and is a blood bank for my Vampires. I vote to keep popcorn

They'd be replaced by monsters(more yaks in Lair for example) who also give you piety, blood, and a lot more xp.

[cerebovssquire]

Replacing completely harmless monsters in Lair with yaks doesn't exactly improve the situation. Instead you have slightly less harmless monsters - which are still basically incapable of killing a player who is paying attention - which take longer to kill. I would just ignore the implications of removing the monsters you name for Vp blood and piety, it's highly unlikely to affect either significantly. Maybe you would notice slightly slower piety gain in Lair if green rats were removed, but the gods that give piety for green rats have fast piety gain in the first place so it wouldn't matter.

[Klown]

I've had yaks hurt some weaker characters in a corridor pretty badly, taking on one at a time.

Whereas things like shoals bats, you can fireball yourself over and over until the bat dies and still not be in danger.

You can say 'play smart' and beat any monster in the game(or at least escape it).
Major popcorn are the ones where even rookies can come in, think the game is a first person shooter, and still roll through those monsters without thinking.

[cerebovssquire]

Yes, but with yaks you just have to walk back to a staircase if your character can't beat the pack easily. You can even drag them up one by one and kill them easily where that might be impossible with, say, hydras or death yaks. I can see how a new player would not do this and die to a yak pack, but you shouldn't just consider new players here and making everyone else fight even more yak packs (or other monsters that aren't challenging but may take some time to kill) isn't fun at all. If you add more dangerous monsters instead - genuinely dangerous ones, like fire drakes, spiny frogs or black mambas - that isn't fun for new players. Considering that and how little piety/blood comes from the trivial monsters you propose to remove, just removing them and not replacing them seems like an easy solution to me.

[Tiktacy]

Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, giant centipede, scorpion, worm, Rat, bat, quokka, Jackal, hound, Ball python, adder, Giant frog, Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana.

Giant cockroach, worker ant, and ball python already don't generate in lair (but there are some vaults that place worker ants) and giant centipedes were removed from the game already.

Here are the monsters that generate in lair that I consider thoroughly harmless in lair: giant newt, giant gecko, iguana, bat, rat, quokka, jackal, porcupine, hound, giant frog, black bear, worm, adder, green rat, giant mite, scorpion, giant slug, hippogriff, goliath beetle, sheep, giant spore, catoblepas, brain worm, oklob plant, elephant slug, wandering mushroom, boring beetle, boulder beetle.

"Thoroughly harmless" means I have excluded monsters that I would very much call "harmless" such as crocodile, basilisk, yak, and hydra, but that are still able to kill you in rare circumstances (such as being a naga/Chei, taking a blind escape hatch/stairs, or being particularly inattentive). The monsters in my "thoroughly harmless" list can basically only kill you if you make a typo or are spectacularly inattentive/idiotic.

Boulder beetles are interesting and unique, they can indeed kill you in certain circumstances and can often be very hard to kill early on. Aside from that I agree with your list.

[bcadren]

Here are the monsters that generate in lair that I consider thoroughly harmless in lair: giant newt, giant gecko, iguana, bat, rat, quokka, jackal, porcupine, hound, giant frog, black bear, worm, adder, green rat, giant mite, scorpion, giant slug, hippogriff, goliath beetle, sheep, giant spore, catoblepas, brain worm, oklob plant, elephant slug, wandering mushroom, boring beetle, boulder beetle.

I'll disagree with some of it.
Goliath beetle can still be deadly in a corridor if you are stuck between it and something else.
Catoblepas? Really it's one of the rarer and more powerful things in Lair...At very least it's annoying as hell to avoid those clouds.
Brain Worm? ...I forgot how to breath. [I died to worm vault out of INT drain smite targeted past other worms once.]
Boring Beetles and Boulder Beetles are both more deadly than most give them credit for. Boulders can splatter practically anyone if they hit you rolling at full speed.

And since you brought up 'rare circumstances' those slugs are very deadly if you of Chei as you can no longer outrun them.
And giant spores can be deadly on a low HP race (Felids, Tengu). OR in combination with other stuff if you don't have clarity...
That could be said of everything there though; harmless by itself, can still manage to be deadly in combination with other stuff (porcupine on, anyways).

[cerebovssquire]

Goliath beetle can still be deadly in a corridor if you are stuck between it and something else.

If goliath beetles didn't exist in Lair and someone proposed to add them to Lair - a monster which is only relevant in incredibly rare situations which only result from really bad tactical mistakes, and requires you to use an annoying hit-retreat-hit-retreat strategy if you want to fight it optimally, which means that you spend more time in fights that aren't threatening - would you consider that a propsal that should be implemented? I feel that considering monsters from that point of view helps when determining whether they should be removed.

[Bloax]

And since you brought up 'rare circumstances' those slugs are very deadly if you of Chei as you can no longer outrun them.

I have never splatted to an elephant slug because I couldn't outrun it while playing a Chei game, because by the time you are that slow and in Lair you're already more than adequately powerful to kill them.
Unless of course it caught you with your pants down, but that's why scrolls of teleport/potions of healing are a thing.