DDFi: Regen

[dryykon]

Hello... First post.

Obviously, if this is posted in the wrong section, please remove it. (However from what I can tell, this is the "Work in Progress" section.)

Anyhow, I am new to Crawl, and this has been my most successful character. I finally passed a "wall" of D: 7-9 and entered the Lair for the first time (I have yet to see orc). This is my first time using Cheibriados and honestly I haven’t been too disappointed.

As if by cruel fate, I have come across 8 spell books and 2 "high level" spell books in the main dungeon. As a fighter, I was dumping all of my skill points into melee related skills, and didn't raise spell casting up at all. I figured I would dabble later, if I survive that long.

The god and fighter picks seem to be working well for me, but the DD isn't. The annoying problem of regeneration.

It was all going pretty well until I ran into some Ugly Things when I wasn't ready to. They sapped my MP down (by using recharge on wand). I didn't pull out with a tele or blink for some reason even though I saw my MP was being used up. Then came D: 9... where Gastronok, Erolcha, Maurice and Eustachio were waiting. I killed them all besides Gas, but they were taxing for my health, and thus MP reserves. (I killed Gas later.)

And so, by the time I fended off some monsters later on in the Lair, I was in serious trouble. MP trouble. I have none left, and no healing pots. I did the only thing I knew, which was try to level up to gain more MP which I then would use on HP. After an 8h Hydra and a 4h one, I was down to 11 HP, and not in a state to be killing things for leveling.

With no MP or healing pots, I cannot see any way to regain health with a DD. Is there one? Regen? I'm currently in the Temple. I have a troll hide, which according to the game, when enchanted, will give me regen abilities. If only I could find a enchant armour scroll...

Don't judge too harshly...

(If I look retarded for being a fighter and wearing the wiz hat, please say so.Also, I didn't notice why or when my Str and Dex got lower...)

  Code:

Tyrant the Protected (Deep Dwarf Fighter)         Turns: 13560, Time: 01:32:42

HP  11/108       AC 21     Str 35 (40) XL: 12   Next: 55%
MP   0/0         EV  7     Int 25      God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold 765         SH 31     Dex 26 (27) Spells:  0 memorised, 11 levels left

Inventory: [troll hide and other stuff is in stash in temple]

Hand weapons
 e - a +3,+3 orcish hand axe of flaming (weapon)
Armour
 c - a +0 dwarven shield (worn)
 q - a +2 wizard hat (worn)
 r - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
 u - a +1 cloak (worn)
 F - a +0 orcish plate armour (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of heal wounds (0)
 f - a wand of draining (6)
 i - a wand of magic darts (9)
 k - a wand of teleportation (4)
 D - a wand of disintegration (4)
 L - a copper wand {zapped: 2} {tried by monster}
Comestibles
 m - a lemon
 B - 5 bread rations
 C - a slice of pizza
 E - 15 cheeses
 O - 2 pears
Scrolls
 g - a scroll of remove curse
 h - a scroll of teleportation
 z - 2 scrolls of fear
 S - 2 scrolls of blinking
Jewellery
 t - a +1 ring of dexterity (right hand)
 H - a ring of sustenance (left hand)
 P - an amulet of stasis (around neck)
Potions
 v - 2 potions of resistance
 w - a potion of might
 I - a potion of magic
 K - a potion of cure mutation
 T - a potion of agility
Books
 a - a book of Alchemy   
 n - a book of Cantrips   
 o - a book of Party Tricks   
 p - a book of Control 
 s - a book of Changes
 x - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
 J - a hardcover book {highlevel}   
 U - a book of Wizardry   
 V - a book of Power
 X - an oblong paperback book {highlevel}
Miscellaneous
 Y - a bottled efreet [oh yeah I forgot to mention this. Judging by the name it's rare, but should I save it or what?]

 Skills: [I have no idea what the heck I'm doing with skills.]
 + Level 7.9 Fighting
 * Level 12.3 Axes
 * Level 12.5 Armour
 + Level 4.4 Dodging
 + Level 9.3 Shields
 * Level 8.5 Invocations
 + Level 11.2 Evocations

You have 11 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Tyrant, the Deep Dwarf Fighter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 21/21 MP: 0/0
   185 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 22/28 MP: 1/1
   284 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
   746 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 29/36 MP: 2/2
   789 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Armour
  1063 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 43/43 MP: 4/4
  1593 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 43/50 MP: 5/5
  2100 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  2100 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 36/57 MP: 8/8
  2223 | D:4      | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute (Int +1). [potion of gain intelligence]
  2654 | D:4      | Noticed a hill giant zombie
  2696 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  2773 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 34/64 MP: 8/8
  2864 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  3106 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Armour
  3117 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3126 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3255 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
  3670 | D:6      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  3871 | D:6      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  3941 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
  3941 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 57/73 MP: 10/10
  3999 | D:6      | Acquired Cheibriados' first power
  4632 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
  4653 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  4693 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  4800 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Armour
  5536 | D:7      | Gained mutation: You passively map the area around you. [level up]
  5536 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 78/80 MP: 10/10
  5564 | D:7      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 58/73 MP: 8/8
  5845 | D:8      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 44/80 MP: 10/10
  6057 | D:8      | Acquired Cheibriados' second power
  6394 | D:8      | Reached skill level 8 in Armour
  6492 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  6790 | D:9      | Acquired Cheibriados' third power
  6795 | D:9      | Noticed Maurice
  7063 | D:9      | Found Gowott's Weapon Emporium.
  7096 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 51/88 MP: 10/10
  7112 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  7305 | D:9      | Noticed Erolcha
  7328 | D:9      | Killed Erolcha
  7328 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Armour
  7343 | D:9      | Noticed Eustachio
  7351 | D:9      | Acquired Cheibriados' fourth power
  7380 | D:9      | Killed Eustachio
  7441 | D:9      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  7539 | D:9      | Killed Maurice
  7614 | D:9      | Noticed Gastronok
  8349 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  8631 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
  8634 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
  9228 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 65/97 MP: 3/3
  9574 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 10233 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 10379 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging
 10554 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Armour
 10639 | Lair:1   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 10648 | Lair:1   | Killed a hydra
 10758 | Lair:1   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 10780 | Lair:1   | Killed a hydra
 10874 | D:9      | Killed Gastronok
 10874 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
 10874 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 10881 | D:9      | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 11572 | D:11     | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 11580 | D:11     | Killed a hydra
 11717 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. [...I guess I did see orc.]
 11783 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 50/108 MP: 2/2
 11826 | D:11     | Killed an unseen horror
 11863 | D:11     | Noticed a cyclops
 11874 | D:11     | Killed a cyclops
 12641 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 12 in Armour
 13517 | Lair:2   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 13527 | Lair:2   | Killed a hydra
 13546 | Lair:3   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 13553 | Lair:3   | Killed a hydra


[Gamesmaster1965]

Ways to regain HP as a DD with 0 MP

Trogs Hand if Trog is your god (AFAIK no other forms of regen work on a deep dwarf, but i could be wrong)
Mahklebs passive healing if Mahkleb is your god
Using a Vampiric weapon
Using the Vampiric draining spell
Scroll of recharging for the wand of healing
Potions of Heal wounds/curing

Thats all i can think of off the top of my head, i'm sure someone will post a more accurate list.

[and into]

Gamemaster's list was pretty thorough, but it did leave out that TSO also gives health upon killing evil stuff, and there's always Ely. There is also Borj's revivification spell. More exotically, Elixir card from certain decks, and there are probably some other even more obscure and rare effects that I'm forgetting.


So here's my advice, OP: Do a CTRL-F search for "vampiric," "recharging," "healing," and "heal wounds." If no vampiric weapon is available, but you manage to get some consumables that put you at an okay level of health, your best option for the rest of the game is probably to ditch Chei then go for either Makhleb or Ely. Leave Lair and try to rack up piety fast in Orc 1 and 2 so you can at least get to a star or two of piety, and you might have a shot at staying alive.


EDIT: For the record, though, I'd consider a DD of Chei to be a rather challenging build. In any given fight you are pretty tough, you start with wand of heal wounds and all, but you can't run, and you can only heal with consumables. It is like an ultimate "Crawl as war of attrition" scenario and I imagine it would become extremely difficult at some point around or just after Lair. So if this is the end for this character, I wouldn't really beat yourself up about it too much.

However, you definitely need to learn to *run* from things and come back to them later (or not). Burning consumables to get away is a lot better than dying or, in your case, using up all of your (ultimately limited) means of HP restoration.

[Siegurt]

Indeed, Deep dwarf's whole "shtick" is that they don't regen hit points normally. It makes them challenging in certain ways (note that they make up for it at least in part by negating part of the damage done)

However you *will* run out of MP to recharge with if you don't find a renewable source of healing.

You could have extended the MP you had with slightly better play, and perhaps better training and or equipment, but as a fighter you take damage, and you need to heal it in some fashion.

Vampiric weapons are IMHO the best way to do this, but they're also very rare. I've always found the vampiric draining spell from the necromancy book too annoying to use regularly (I find I want to go back upstairs, and find wimpy creatures to drain, or leave them behind for later, which is terrible and boring) I would say god abilities are the most reliable and probably the most long-term useful. I'd say Trog's and Ely's are the easiest to use, but also the easiest to overuse (Trogs will run out of piety if you overuse it and Elys will run you out of food, or piety if you don't pacify enough stuff) Makhelb's is probably the most useful long-term (As he gives you health and piety with no cost except you have to kill stuff, which you were going to do anyway) TSO is similar, but only when killing undead and demons. Nemlex can give you health through potion, alchemy, and elixir cards, those are not common drops for him, but it's *some* health and it's ultimately renewable, although it's on a much slower cycle, he's really only for DD players who can avoid most damage for a very long time. Yred's "drain" ability can give you life, but it's too expensive to make a habit of. Jiyva can heal you (at higher piety) when slimes eat stuff (Which is a pretty nice way to heal actually)

Okawaru and Trog can potentially gift vampiric weapons, but it's not something to count on. Ely/Zin/TSO hate vampiric weapons so you can't worship them while using one. Sif and Kiku can potentially give you the vampiric draining spells (in book form) if it's not something you have available already.

[rebthor]

Gamemaster's list was pretty thorough, but it did leave out that TSO also gives health upon killing evil stuff, and there's always Ely. There is also Borj's revivification spell. More exotically, Elixir card from certain decks, and there are probably some other even more obscure and rare effects that I'm forgetting.

Poor Yred is always ignored. His drain life ability will work on everything alive in sight.

Edit: I see the Siegurt mentioned it as well as Jiyva healing that I forgot about.

[dryykon]

Thanks for the replies! I briefly considered switching to Trog for Hand, but wasn't too confident with only 11HP.

Cheibriados was great early on, with the boosted stats and not too much slowness, I was able to carve through quite a lot of monsters I normally wouldn't have. When I look back, not running away was probably my biggest flaw. I did avoid monsters I couldn't kill (I've only run into Erolcha before, so they were all new to me) but stayed to kill the ones who I could, even if they were taxing on my health.

Ill attempt to find a vamp weapon but I don't remember any. So I'll switch to Trog or Ely (probably Trog in hopes of a vamp wep) and see how things go from there and delve into Orc to get some piety. Ill probably give this combo another go and be more conservative with my MP.

[Sandman25]

You can use Ctrl+F and type something like "vamp" to find vampiric weapons, it searches in shops too.

[and into]

Yes—not only did I forget the more exotic, but also missed a few obvious ones.

In any case, DD of Chei sounds pretty rough.

Berserkers get Trog's hand *and* they also don't usually care about their MP, so you can keep the wand of healing charged at all times. You end up spamming trog's hand a lot, but that is usually okay.

Makhleb pretty much solves the problem, his HP on kills is extremely dependable, comes online at *, and naturally scales with enemy's HD [EDIT: But chance of happening *is* dependent on total piety]. TSO works in extended but is actually less reliable than Makhleb in my experience; TSO restores both HP and MP, but TSO's HP restoration tends to be lower than Makhleb. It works, but for regen purposes Makhleb is better even in extended than TSO (though TSO's other benefits may outweigh this for your character / play style. Either is viable, certainly).

Vampiric weapons would definitely work too as your regen source, but can be hard to get.

Vampiric draining spell is really good for most of the game and *kind of* sufficient for late game. You can make it work for later in game, but it is annoying. In early and mid-game, though, vampiric draining spell can easily be your DD's source of regen and is well suited for that.

I don't have a lot of experience with Yred, but based on that which I do have, I don't think his drain ability would be enough, on its own. Though if you also had the vampiric draining spell *or* a vampiric weapon, it would be a great supplemental source of health.

[Sandman25]

Piety is extremely important for Makhleb: healing on kills "Has a (piety - 30)/200 chance of happening" http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Makhleb#Given_Abilities

[and into]

Wow, I had noticed that Makhleb's piety on kills sometimes doesn't happen, of course, but I always thought it was a flat rate, not piety-dependent.

[dryykon]

Well as it turns out, there was no vampire weapons (not too much of a surprise there) but I did make it to Orc: 1. Where... I took a step and was blasted by a orc wizard.

I played a DDFi again, and followed Makhleb. For the first time, I cleared the Lair and then Orc. Makhleb has overcome my regeneration problems, as I rarely have to use my wand of healing or any consumables.

[Gor-Rag]

My DDFi Chei follower has has little problems thanks to the increased INT. With 28 max MP (a +10 MP and +INT artifact) that's potentially 168 uses of cure with my wand. It's more strategic than most melee builds with the obvious lack of speed and Chei's abilities are very useful.