CIP - SpBe

[Nelagend]

First off, here's the character dump.

Spoiler: show

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-1458-gad1601e (console) character file.

Anklerender the Spry (Spriggan Berserker)          Turns: 26764, Time: 02:02:47

HP  74/74        AC  8     Str 19      XL: 14   Next:  5%
MP  27/27        EV 27     Int 13      God: Trog [******]
Gold 540         SH 16     Dex 12      Spells:  0 memorised, 13 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   a - +4,+8 quick blade
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   c - +0 robe of the Leaf {Str+3 Dex-4 Int+3 Dam
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   e - +1 buckler {rC+}
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   E - +0 cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   W - amulet of rage
Saprovore : . . .                    d - ring of poison resistance
                                     n - +5 ring of protection

@: very quick, very resistant to hostile enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: unfitting armour, antennae 1, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow
metabolism 2
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Berserk Rage


You are on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Trog.
Trog is exalted by your worship.
You are completely stuffed.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 20 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.

You have collected 1080 gold pieces.
You have spent 560 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +4,+8 quick blade (weapon)
 b - a +0,+8 sling of frost
 t - a +2,+2 sabre of holy wrath
 O - a +0,+3 dagger of venom
 R - a +0,+4 sling of flame
Missiles
 f - 50 sling bullets of flame
 m - 112 stones (quivered)
 o - 30 sling bullets
 Q - 24 poisoned sling bullets
Armour
 c - the +0 robe of the Leaf (worn) {Str+3 Dex-4 Int+3 Dam+5}
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (-4).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+5).
 e - a +1 buckler of cold resistance (worn)
 j - a +0 robe of resistance
 E - a +0 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 l - a wand of confusion {zapped: 1}
 C - a wand of paralysis {zapped: 5}
 D - a wand of draining {zapped: 2}
 H - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 1}
 J - a wand of slowing {zapped: 1}
 N - a wand of fire {zapped: 1}
 P - a wand of lightning
 S - a wand of polymorph
 T - a wand of digging (15)
 U - a wand of lightning {zapped: 3}
 X - a wand of lightning
Comestibles
 g - 6 bread rations
 h - 9 honeycombs
Scrolls
 i - 2 scrolls of recharging
 k - 3 scrolls of blinking
 r - 4 scrolls of fog
 s - 12 scrolls of remove curse
 x - 4 scrolls of identify
 y - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 I - 3 scrolls labeled CANNIU GUOPE {tried}
 V - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 Y - 2 scrolls of enchant armour
Jewellery
 d - a ring of poison resistance (right hand)
 n - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
 q - an uncursed ring of ice
 v - an uncursed ring of life protection
 A - an uncursed ring of flight
 F - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 K - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 W - an amulet of rage (around neck)
 Z - a ring of protection from fire
Potions
 p - a potion of magic
 w - a potion of heal wounds
 z - 2 potions of brilliance
 B - 2 potions of resistance
 L - a potion of restore abilities
 M - a potion of curing
Rods
 G - a +1 rod of inaccuracy (12/12)
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)


   Skills:
 + Level 9.6 Fighting
 - Level 12.9 Short Blades
 + Level 12.1 Slings
 + Level 16.3 Dodging
 + Level 15.8 Stealth
 * Level 7.1 Shields
 + Level 5.9 Traps
 + Level 4.8 Evocations


You have 13 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27)            Temple (1/1) D:5             Orc (0/4) D:9
   Lair (8/8) D:10          Snake (0/5) Lair:6     
 Swamp: Lair:3-6    Shoals: Lair:3-6    Spider: Lair:3-6     Slime: Lair:6-8

I've done a bit of research on SpBe, and seen that eventually I'll want to leave Trog if I want to do extended. I have plenty of lesser wins but no 15 runer yet, so every character of mine who isn't obviously completely incapable TRIES to go for 15. It seems like eventually most SpBes drop Trog once they have a good enough weapon (presumably so they can cast spells.) It also seems like they go for TSO. Now, as I understand him, TSO mostly gives rN+++(amazing to useless depending on what artefacts generate), holy wrath brand to weapon (OK, fine, if not as good on a quickblade), virtual SInv (pointless for a Spriggan) and +N to hit from aura (pointless to a quick blade user), strips your stealth abilities (what a waste of a +5 apt), and replaces your berserking stone giants with berserking angels (this is good). This seems like some other god should be more effective for a stealthy race with passive SInv, no? Kiku for torment resistance, curse protection and eventually guaranteed Necromutation for Tomb? Zin for... I dunno, I've never got to the point of abandoning TSO for him on my big melee characters, who normally would go Oka->TSO->Zin? Jiyva for beneficial mutations and not having to care about getting bad ones?

Gear wise, I have an enchanted quickblade which will probably eventually turn vorpal. I could try to turn it freezing if I find the spell and leave Trog before inadvertently vorpalizing the weapon anyway. If I go TSO it will eventually turn holy wrath. I have armor with slaying, which even with the -Dex probably outperforms any relevant dragon armor or a Robe of Resistance because 0.3 attack speed lol. If I didn't have an artefact robe with +5 Dam, would Swamp Dragon Armor outperform Robe of Resistance lategame assuming appropriate artefact drops for my other slots? I don't think I would want to go all the way to a fire or ice dragon armor on a Spriggan, as economizing on Armor skill a bit leads to lower GDR anyway. I can get appropriate resistances for almost anything I face so far by changing out jewelry.

[and into]

It is really too early to tell whether abandoning Trog and going extended is viable. Trog's wrath is no joke, and you can't really train magic while worshiping him.

If you are dead-set on at least giving this a try, though, I'd probably recommend Ashenzari. By the time you make the switch, most of the limiting things about worshiping Ash will be minor. (You should already have good equipment options and plenty of scrolls.) You'll get a boost to skills, particularly useful for your magic, which will be lagging behind. And all the other passive abilities really let you capitalize on your stealth abilities. Plus Scry is awesome.

In the meantime, use a blowgun and get some throwing skill to back it up, needles are really good now and some work even on demons if you have sufficient throwing skill. Trog will give you some of these good needles as ammo gifts, which you can keep even after the switch. Aside from keeping your core skills up, it isn't like there are a lot of other things you can do with your experience in the meantime, anyway, so grab a blowgun and get to it.

[nago]

Trog is fine for a 15 rune, especially as Sp or if you use a needle-build. Rather than a vorpalized quickblade, use an antimagic one - Trog will gift one at some point. For armour, I'd use a mottled dragon one.
If you want to ditch him is fine after you have done vaults/lair branches and eventually Zot:1-4, Abyss and Slimes - but absolutely not for TSO - stealth is your biggest gun in extended, as you don't actually want to kill things but steal runes. Good god replacement would be Ash, Jyiva, maybe Lucy.

[Siegurt]

Distortion branded quickblade is pretty much my favorite weapon of all time, Lucy's other powers aren't bad either

[Nelagend]

So the general consensus is that 27 Throwing with needles of paralysis/confusion/curare will do more useful and nasty things to 1s and 2s than 27 Slings with a >+9 sling? Having had a couple slingers in Zot, I can see where slings, even +9 skills with 27 skill, start to break down as a killing mechanism. One note - I did put 3-4 points into Str before I looked and realized those points should be going into Dex/Int, so my Str is abnormally high for SpBe. That means that sling bullet weight is less of a problem for me than it should be.

I'll post again after clearing Vaults:5. At that point it should be feasible to say abandon Trog or not, and evaluate how much extra crap I'll need to get in Elf/Abyss in order to clear Slime, Pandemonium, Hell, and Tomb. Jiyva's easily reachable this game, btw, for what that's worth.

I also will NOT use a distortion weapon in extended... You hit the nequoxec. The nequoxec blinks out of range. The nequoxec mutates you! You rage! You hit the random 2 or 3. The random 2 or 3 is almost dead. It blinks out of range. You can't throw javelins as a spriggan to finish it off! It torments you! You rage! Some people can deal with that. I can't.

[and into]

That means that sling bullet weight is less of a problem for me than it should be.

But as you just said, it is hard to keep up the killing damage on slings in very late game. It is certainly doable, especially with a really really good sling, but it can be difficult. So carrying sling bullets is not really the concern anyway.

Nago's advice is very good.

Even if you don't want the distortion weapon, Lugonu would be a solid choice. If you want to experiment with one of the holy gods, Zin would be a better option for this character than TSO. Nemelex is tedious (IMO), *especially* for a late-game switch, but powerful. Ash or Jivya would be great.

[Siegurt]

So the general consensus is that 27 Throwing with needles of paralysis/confusion/curare will do more useful and nasty things to 1s and 2s than 27 Slings with a >+9 sling? Having had a couple slingers in Zot, I can see where slings, even +9 skills with 27 skill, start to break down as a killing mechanism. One note - I did put 3-4 points into Str before I looked and realized those points should be going into Dex/Int, so my Str is abnormally high for SpBe. That means that sling bullet weight is less of a problem for me than it should be.

I'll post again after clearing Vaults:5. At that point it should be feasible to say abandon Trog or not, and evaluate how much extra crap I'll need to get in Elf/Abyss in order to clear Slime, Pandemonium, Hell, and Tomb. Jiyva's easily reachable this game, btw, for what that's worth.

I also will NOT use a distortion weapon in extended... You hit the nequoxec. The nequoxec blinks out of range. The nequoxec mutates you! You rage! You hit the random 2 or 3. The random 2 or 3 is almost dead. It blinks out of range. You can't throw javelins as a spriggan to finish it off! It torments you! You rage! Some people can deal with that. I can't.

Hm I guess i've never played into extended with a distortion weapon but without a powerful ranged attack of some sort (I think the last two times I was playing I had nemex cards and iron shot as options for ranged damage) I also get to do things like "You enter Cerebov's level standing right next to him, you attack him once and banish him on the first attack, with him getting to so much as look at you funny, you walk over and pick up the rune and leave, go team distortion!"

Edit: Come to think of it, I would always kill tormentors and Neqouxec's at range with extreme prejudice without attacking them.

[nago]

About needles: with 27 throwing and high enchanted blowgun hellpan Lords are easily disabled with paralysis or sleeping, allowing funny stabbing. You want a good amount of needle tough (20+) to be sure they last all extended.

[Sandman25]

Paralyzing needles are really great in extended, my HaBe of Trog killed all 4 Panlords in 2-3 hits. It even got one hell rune killing a hell lord the same way. But still had to win with only 11 runes as Tomb and remaining Hell branches were too tough. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8709&p=119628