CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Thursday, 8th August 2013, 20:05 by Tiktacy

I had come into a recent argument over which god was superior when it comes to Venom mages; many people argued Vehumet, but I(being the chei fan girl I am) argued Chei was superior.

Knowing that in general, Crawl is a game that can prove more in practice rather than on paper, I decided to go about testing each of these. I will be playing a DrVM a total of 6 times: 3 following vehumet, 3 following cheibriados. I will not count a run unless I have passed at least one star of piety gain for either god, and will be choosing my god for each game based on what is likely the better option(ex: finding an amulet of faith and an alter of cheibriados on floor 1) but will only play each god a maximum of 3 times.

I will be posting updates and results for each game here. This is my first game:

Frisky penguin: The iron dragon Venom Mage of Cheibriados

-amulet of faith on floor 1(obviously going with cheibriados)
-buckler at 0 spell penalty
-currently using an unbranded whip, hoping for a whip of elec.
-all armour slots besides cap/hat filled(they are all +0 though)

Thursday, 8th August 2013, 20:55 by Tiktacy

Update: Iron Dragon Venom Mage of Cheibriados

-Found an artifact falchion with a really bad enchantment, but flaming brand, rPoison, +blink, and in+1
-Shortly after, I found a scimitar of elec(it has done wonders against those pesky undead)
-Just found a wand of heal wounds(!!!) in lair 2.

Overall, this has been an extraordinarily lucky run, but it nearly ended prematurely after 4-5 miscasts of slouch in a row at 4% fail rate(no, I'm not making this up). However, there have been plenty of situations where it could have ended early if not for the help of Chei, and vehumet would just now be starting to give me useful spells.

At this rate, I will probably decide on tackling extended endgame rather than going for the win. I just need book of ice/fire/power and then the game will really start to take off.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 03:23 by Abominae

I don't think this is a good test because neither of those gods are the best for a VM.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 04:44 by Tiktacy

I got super far into the dungeon and found a lot of good stuff, but I tried doing slime pits in hopes of getting a staff of channeling and or book of annihilation and ended up killing dissolution, only to go down a floor and end up dying after accidently attempting to move and getting blasted by acid several times. I COULD have used BR, which would have easily saved my life since I had an extra turn, but I decided "fuck it" since I had already beaten the game using pretty much the exact same character(but with a merfolk) and I was pretty much golden for the rest of the game anyway. I guess playing the same thing twice really takes a hit on your patience. =/

Tomorrow I will try using Vehumet and see how things work.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 06:46 by bobross419

The argument was what is more useful for killing poison resistant things... at low level... where such things matter most.

Things like Amulet of Faith skew the results wildly... It takes about 2 dungeon levels with Faith for Veh to gift you a spell that will kill poison resistant monsters.

And I'll save you some time up front... 6 games is too small a subset to determine anything, especially given the randomness of the dungeon. If you really wanted to prove anything, reduce the variables. Use wiz mode to select the gods after floor x, select a specific weapon, etc. Since most of your arguments relied on things like "I usually get 2 books by Lair" it would really be interesting to see how things work out with just the god gifts. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...

Furthermore... "lair 2" "vehumet would just now be starting to give me useful spells" is just plain wrong. By this point in just about every one of my games I have some decent spells and by the end of Lair I've got the mid-game locked in with Fireball/Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud. Your statements point to having an extreme bias that will skew all of the results. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...

At any rate, I don't play a lot of casters... but here is a simple grep of all of the gifts Vehumet has given me between D:1-D:10, Lair:1-8, and Orc:1-4.

Spoiler: show

And the same list sorted by level...

Spoiler: show

Just look at how early Veh gifts you the level 1 spells... and if you are a VM you are guaranteed to get something other than Sting! And by Lair you should have at least one spell that will carry you through most of a 3-rune game.

You can check the same if you are on *nix/Mac by running the following in your morgue folder

Code:: grep "Offered knowledge of" * | awk -F'|' '{print $2 $3}' | sed -e "s/Offered knowledge of $.*$ by Vehumet./\1/" | egrep -v "D:1[1-9]" | sort

Finally, you need some sort of real metric to go off of... Basing things on your "gut" and "play experience" are completely objective and mean diddly squat to everyone else. Also, you are comparing gods, but the only one of your "updates" that had anything to do with a god was that you found the Amulet of Faith.... Not things that are actually constructive to your argument like "Chei gave me TD at D:3", "Veh gave me his first gift at D:3"

Friday, 9th August 2013, 07:17 by Tiktacy

(How does one delete an unintentional double post?)

Friday, 9th August 2013, 07:26 by Tiktacy

bobross419 wrote:The argument was what is more useful for killing poison resistant things... at low level... where such things matter most.

Things like Amulet of Faith skew the results wildly... It takes about 2 dungeon levels with Faith for Veh to gift you a spell that will kill poison resistant monsters.

And I'll save you some time up front... 6 games is too small a subset to determine anything, especially given the randomness of the dungeon. If you really wanted to prove anything, reduce the variables. Use wiz mode to select the gods after floor x, select a specific weapon, etc. Since most of your arguments relied on things like "I usually get 2 books by Lair" it would really be interesting to see how things work out with just the god gifts. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...

Furthermore... "lair 2" "vehumet would just now be starting to give me useful spells" is just plain wrong. By this point in just about every one of my games I have some decent spells and by the end of Lair I've got the mid-game locked in with Fireball/Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud. Your statements point to having an extreme bias that will skew all of the results. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...

At any rate, I don't play a lot of casters... but here is a simple grep of all of the gifts Vehumet has given me between D:1-D:10, Lair:1-8, and Orc:1-4.

Spoiler: show
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:9 Conjure Flame
D:7 Dazzling Spray
D:9 Dazzling Spray
D:5 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:8 Force Lance
D:4 Freeze
D:6 Freeze
D:8 Freeze
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Inner Flame
D:9 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:3 Sandblast
D:5 Sandblast
D:8 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:3 Shock
D:6 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:5 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:5 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:8 Stone Arrow
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Flame
D:8 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Frost
D:10 Fireball
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Static Discharge
D:10 Static Discharge
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:1 Bolt of Draining
Orc:2 Bolt of Draining
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:2 Ozocubu's Refrigeration
Orc:2 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poisonous Cloud
Orc:4 Tornado
Orc:4 Tornado
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:1 Bolt of Fire
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:4 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:1 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:5 Freezing Cloud
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:3 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:8 Orb of Destruction
Lair:7 Poisonous Cloud
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:4 Venom Bolt
Lair:6 Venom Bolt

And the same list sorted by level...
Spoiler: show
D:10 Fireball
D:3 Sandblast
D:3 Shock
D:4 Freeze
D:5 Flame Tongue
D:5 Sandblast
D:5 Static Discharge
D:5 Sting
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Freeze
D:6 Shock
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:7 Dazzling Spray
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Frost
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Force Lance
D:8 Freeze
D:8 Sandblast
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Stone Arrow
D:8 Throw Flame
D:9 Conjure Flame
D:9 Dazzling Spray
D:9 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Static Discharge
D:10 Static Discharge
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Bolt of Fire
Lair:1 Freezing Cloud
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Orb of Destruction
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:4 Delayed Fireball
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Venom Bolt
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Freezing Cloud
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Venom Bolt
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Poisonous Cloud
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Orb of Destruction
Orc:1 Bolt of Draining
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Draining
Orc:2 Ozocubu's Refrigeration
Orc:2 Poison Arrow
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poisonous Cloud
Orc:4 Tornado
Orc:4 Tornado

Just look at how early Veh gifts you the level 1 spells... and if you are a VM you are guaranteed to get something other than Sting! And by Lair you should have at least one spell that will carry you through most of a 3-rune game.

You can check the same if you are on *nix/Mac by running the following in your morgue folder
Code:
grep "Offered knowledge of" * | awk -F'|' '{print $2 $3}' | sed -e "s/Offered knowledge of $.*$ by Vehumet./\1/" | egrep -v "D:1[1-9]" | sort

Finally, you need some sort of real metric to go off of... Basing things on your "gut" and "play experience" are completely objective and mean diddly squat to everyone else. Also, you are comparing gods, but the only one of your "updates" that had anything to do with a god was that you found the Amulet of Faith.... Not things that are actually constructive to your argument like "Chei gave me TD at D:3", "Veh gave me his first gift at D:3"

Sorry, I am kind of halfassing things a bit. But still, at least i'm doing SOMETHING, right?

Amulet of faith skews the results, same with finding a usable elec weapon, and getting iron as my dragon type, and getting 2 wands of heal wounds, I got really lucky in this game. But still, I have at least shown that I was able to get farther using chei rather than using Vehumet. Here are just a few examples of times that following chei saved my life:

-I ran into some undead creatures aroound dungeon level 7 or so, and had ended up having to use melee against them. If I had chosen Vehumet and gotten unlucky(I found the temple on floor 5, it had both the first alter for vehumet and chei), I wouldn't have been able to handle them. But as a follower of chei, I had sufficient melee capabilities due to his boosts in strength and dex.

-There was no source of resist poison in the dungeon aside from that artifact falchion, which was not something I could readily swap. I was saved from death by poison several times due to Chei's innate poison "resistance".

-slouch saved me from a bunch of bees.

-Chei's int boost allowed me to have BR online early, which would have saved me had I chosen to use it rather than end the run prematurely.

-(note: I could be wrong about this) high strength let me use large shields with very little effect on my spell success and minimal training(only to about level 9 or so). This may or may not have been a life saver, as you can never really tell with yakataur captains and Tier-1 elves(shields of reflection FTW).

You can't argue with that, chei proves time and time again to be the safer choice, he is more consistent and therefore more powerful. Sure, if I got lucky with vehumet I could just blow everything up, but thats the thing! Chei takes a certain variable of luck out of the game and replaces it with tactics. If used correctly, he is a force to be reckoned with.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 08:26 by Sar

Tiktacy wrote:I ran into some undead creatures aroound dungeon level 7 or so, and had ended up having to use melee against them. If I had chosen Vehumet and gotten unlucky(I found the temple on floor 5, it had both the first alter for vehumet and chei), I wouldn't have been able to handle them.

But Vehumet doesn't slow you down, so you would be able to handle them.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 10:01 by bobross419

Tiktacy wrote:accidently attempting to move and getting blasted by acid several times.

And Chei is better somehow?

Tiktacy wrote:Amulet of faith skews the results, same with finding a usable elec weapon, and getting iron as my dragon type, and getting 2 wands of heal wounds, I got really lucky in this game. But still, I have at least shown that I was able to get farther using chei rather than using Vehumet.

You've shown that you can get to Slime... Any God can get there. The point is that if you are trying to make an argument that Chei is better you need something more than anecdotes.

Tiktacy wrote:-I ran into some undead creatures aroound dungeon level 7 or so, and had ended up having to use melee against them. If I had chosen Vehumet and gotten unlucky(I found the temple on floor 5, it had both the first alter for vehumet and chei), I wouldn't have been able to handle them. But as a follower of chei, I had sufficient melee capabilities due to his boosts in strength and dex.

My average number of turns from worship to first gift with Veh is ~1500 (1-2 floors or so)... And I am by no means an efficient player. As was previously mentioned, without Chei you could have just walked away if you were "unlucky" or just kited them. You didn't give any indication about what the actual STR/DEX boosts were at this point in the game, but on a test of worshipping Chei on D:5 and killing for 3 levels he gave me exactly 2 to each of my attributes which amounts to very little damage increase and the same EV. The worst part was that I died at one point to a Hydra skeleton that I could have walked away from had I not be worshipping Chei and Edmund killed me about 12 times immediately after I started worshipping and I couldn't escape him.

Tiktacy wrote:-There was no source of resist poison in the dungeon aside from that artifact falchion, which was not something I could readily swap. I was saved from death by poison several times due to Chei's innate poison "resistance".

-slouch saved me from a bunch of bees.

You are a venom mage which means you have access to Cure Poison and Mephitic Cloud. These two spells, completely unrelated to god choice would have solved both of these issues.

Tiktacy wrote:-Chei's int boost allowed me to have BR online early, which would have saved me had I chosen to use it rather than end the run prematurely.

Veh's casting bonuses allow you to get your damage dealing spells castable with lower experience expenditure. I'm not up on all the math's but I'm sure that it would end up being damn near a wash as far as Borgnor's success rate.

The funniest part of this particular point you're making is that you probably wouldn't have take so much damage had you been worshipping Veh! Sure, you "accidentally" moved, but its still hilarious.

Tiktacy wrote:-(note: I could be wrong about this) high strength let me use large shields with very little effect on my spell success and minimal training(only to about level 9 or so). This may or may not have been a life saver, as you can never really tell with yakataur captains and Tier-1 elves(shields of reflection FTW).

Having extended range on your damage dealing spells IS a lifesaver when it comes to these guys; especially when the alternative is wasting 2 turns just to get in range. And again... Veh gives you wiz bonuses so its probably a wash again, but I don't think STR plays any part in overcoming SH EVP.

Tiktacy wrote:You can't argue with that, chei proves time and time again to be the safer choice, he is more consistent and therefore more powerful. Sure, if I got lucky with vehumet I could just blow everything up, but thats the thing! Chei takes a certain variable of luck out of the game and replaces it with tactics. If used correctly, he is a force to be reckoned with.

What is inconsistent with Veh? You are guaranteed a spell to deal with rPois monsters within a D level or 3, you are practically guaranteed to get a spell that will carry you through mid-game easily, and you are guaranteed some of the most powerful damage dealing spells in the game... again though, the initial argument was about which of the gods is better for dealing with rPois monsters.

I've given you data and you've just come back with anecdotes...

Friday, 9th August 2013, 13:17 by ackack

Tiktacy,

If what you're interested in testing is the claim that Chei gets you going faster on your powerful VM spells than Vehumet (which was the impression that I got), perhaps a more direct test would be to mess around with things in wizmode. There you have more control over the variables (e.g. you can set your skill levels, piety levels, etc.) and you can answer the question both much more quickly and with more certainty. If you have a local version of the game, you get into wizmode using &.

edit: If you're trying to show game-wide efficacy, obviously that's harder to do in wizmode, but as people are saying, nobody is likely to be convinced by your present experiment because there are just way too many other variables to consider --- drops, your relative skill level with Chei compared to other gods (if you play a bunch of Chei maybe you're much better at Chei than somebody who might take your advice), etc.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 14:54 by crate

If you want an actually good chei background try IE, it happens to fit very well with what chei actually gives you. All of the IE damage spells are powerful to begin with and benefit quite a bit from the improved spellpower you get from having more int; icicle lasts a long time so you're not at the mercy of the rng to find better spells quite like you are with VM (icicle is much better than venom bolt in this regard), and none of the IE spells have a large damage-over-time component like sting (or maybe new OTR? I haven't tried it. Old OTR was bad without chei and even worse with chei so whatever) so losing a good deal of your in-combat movement isn't as important. Also none of the spells IE has are particularly loud (this matters because chei makes it harder to deal with using loud spells, and lots of players are bad at dealing with making lots of noise to begin with).

Other options include FE, EE, and Cj. These are all much better than VM.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 14:55 by One-Eyed Jack

Tiktacy wrote:(How does one delete an unintentional double post?)

There's an x in the bottom right of the post

Friday, 9th August 2013, 15:21 by Amnesiac

One-Eyed Jack wrote:There's an x in the bottom right of the post

To be more accurate, you can delete the last post, until someone replies to it. Maybe there is some time limit, too, or if some people read the topic(I'm not sure how it works). So if you double-post, the best thing to do is to copy your last post, delete it, then paste it into the previous one.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 18:55 by rebthor

Tiktacy wrote:I got super far into the dungeon and found a lot of good stuff, but I tried doing slime pits in hopes of getting a staff of channeling and or book of annihilation and ended up killing dissolution, only to go down a floor and end up dying after accidently attempting to move and getting blasted by acid several times. I COULD have used BR, which would have easily saved my life since I had an extra turn, but I decided "fuck it" since I had already beaten the game using pretty much the exact same character(but with a merfolk) and I was pretty much golden for the rest of the game anyway. I guess playing the same thing twice really takes a hit on your patience. =/

Tomorrow I will try using Vehumet and see how things work.

So your defense of saying that Che is better than Veh is by dying from moving? Seems like a ringing endorsement.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 20:10 by Tiktacy

*takes a deep breath* okay, I have too many responses to give an argument and I don't feel like making another textwall.

So here is what I will do: I am going to roll a DrVM in wizmode and give myself a full set of +0 armour, a whip, a ring of poison resistance, 10 scrolls of teleportation, 3 scrolls of blinking, 5 potions of heal wounds, and that is all. I won't pick up ANYTHING besides books and food. My goal will be to clear out Orc:4, Lair:8, and dungeon levels 1-15. Upon entering floor 5, I will begin worshipping one of the 2 gods(I will start with Vehumet).

This time, I will give specific details after every single floor is cleared, and whichever character makes it to its goal with the least amount of deaths wins. If both characters make it on their first try, then I will think of something.

If there is anything you think might skew the results, please say so.

How does that sound?

Friday, 9th August 2013, 20:13 by rebthor

What good is +0 armour going to do for a Dr? Unless you just meant, I'm going to give my Dr a cloak for some unknown reason.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 20:21 by Tiktacy

rebthor wrote:What good is +0 armour going to do for a Dr? Unless you just meant, I'm going to give my Dr a cloak for some unknown reason.

it gives some much needed AC for a character lacking body armour.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 20:49 by Tiktacy

Vehumet Test-1:

Floor 1:

-easy time, nothing special happened.

Floor 2: Level 2

-Had a runin with sigmund, used 2 potions of heal wounds.
-ran into a pack of knolls and was brought down to half health after running into a worm while retreating, I still won without a problem though.

Floor 3: Level 4

-Ran into a play ghost, so I retreated before he noticed me and continued exploring the dungeon.
-Continued exporing the dungeon fully without running into him again.
-Learned mephitic cloud.

Floor 4: Level 5

-Found a high-level book.
-Killed a giant frog skeleton with ease.

Floor 5: Level 6

-Started following Vehumet.
-Matured into an acidic(yellow) draconian.
-Had a tough fight with a centaur and an ogre double teaming me, used 1 scroll of teleportion before things got ugly.
-a brutal fight with an ice beast cost me the rest of my heal wounds potions(should have teleported).
-still no vehumet gift.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 21:11 by Tiktacy

Floor 6: level 7

-Had a tough fight with a sky beast and a bunch of other enemies, parked 2 imps on upper floor.
-Learned venom bolt at 56%
-Found book of alchemy
-lost 6 dexterity from that one tier 5 demon(can't remember the name, something with a Q)
-Learned magic dart(first vehumet gift).
-Ran into a pack of orcs in a wide open space, used 1 scroll of teleportation(7 left)
-Attempted to fight pikel, got swarmed by an ogre and a slime and 2 imps, used another scroll(6 left)
-Found pikel again and killed him easy.
-Used another scroll of teleportation after poisoning orc priest and wizard(was losing the battle, badly)(5 left)

Floor 7: level 8

-Venom bolt at 30%
-Killed menquare with magic dart(thank you vehumet!)
-Had some trouble with a manticore and griffin skeleton.
-Orc warrior+ring of invisibility+orc priests+bad placement= -1 Scroll of Teleportation(4 left)
-It is worth noting that being able to move faster has HELPED in some situations, although its hard to say if they were life savers.
-killed orc warrior with 21% venom bolt in one shot.
-found and dominated rat vault.
-destroyed a pack of orcs in a straight line with venom bolt(18%)

Current stats: S:12 I:18 D: 8(11)(ive put everything into intellect)

Friday, 9th August 2013, 21:24 by Tiktacy

Floor 8: Level 9

-Killed maurice without much trouble, but it WAS a one on one fight.
-Still having just a bit of trouble with orc wizards/priests, still have to use mepitic on them.
-Learned throw flame(Vehumet **....)
-Killed prince ribbit like a bitch.
-Venom bolt at a reliable 14%, still no wizardry bonus from vehumet.
-Took out a troll using Venom bolt(took several shots though)
-ran into the zombie vault for orcish mines(I have been getting pretty terrible luck this game when it comes to mobs) but throw flame made it doable.(I was retreating from a hydra skeleton, this was actually on floor 9)
-Learned throw icicle(vehumet ***...)
-Killed hydra skeleton with throw icicle.

Floor 9: Level 10

-unseen horror right off the bat, nearly killed me, luckily I was right next to a staircase and retreated immediately.
-venom bolt at 3%
- walked into a room and 15 zombies came into veiw.
-got cornered next to a troll at low health and had to use a blink scroll. Now I have none.
-Food is now becoming an issue since I am being forced to resort to throw icicle to kill trolls, and several hunger ghosts put a serious strain on it.
-Ran into the unseen horror AGAIN and had to use a scroll of teleport.
-Learned Iskunderuns battlesphere(vehumet ****..)
-everything is under 5% fail chance, all spells are viable and online.
-Just reached level 10 conjurations and spell power, high level book is NOT annihilation.
-Learned olgrebs toxic radiance.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 21:52 by Psieye

Tiktacy, you may want to just settle for "I like VM of Chei, I can make it work" and then give tips to people who specifically ask you for how you do it. You are trying to convince everyone, including some of the most experienced veterans, to adopt your stance. That is a monumental goal. You tried to do it in theory debate before but as that wasn't making progress you desire to prove your point with Science. A few simple tests or a handful of anecdotes can prove a simple and easy hypothesis. However the hypothesis you are trying to prove is broad and difficult - it would require colossal statistics (with error analysis) to conclusively settle the matter. You'd need to massively parallel process some Monte Carlo simulations of a plethora of scenarios, then analyse that data, before an argument born from experiment would hold weight. Even if you miraculously did that, there'd still be room for people to deconstruct your analysis.

Having said that, it's not as if what you've done in this thread is useless - it's just not useful in the way you want it to be. Your work here is a clear expression of your passion for Chei, but it is not going to convince people to take up your opinion.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 21:58 by Amnesiac

Damn this is so cool, that I might want to make it my sig. I won't do that, but it's that cool.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 22:41 by Tiktacy

Psieye wrote:Tiktacy, you may want to just settle for "I like VM of Chei, I can make it work" and then give tips to people who specifically ask you for how you do it. You are trying to convince everyone, including some of the most experienced veterans, to adopt your stance. That is a monumental goal. You tried to do it in theory debate before but as that wasn't making progress you desire to prove your point with Science. A few simple tests or a handful of anecdotes can prove a simple and easy hypothesis. However the hypothesis you are trying to prove is broad and difficult - it would require colossal statistics (with error analysis) to conclusively settle the matter. You'd need to massively parallel process some Monte Carlo simulations of a plethora of scenarios, then analyse that data, before an argument born from experiment would hold weight. Even if you miraculously did that, there'd still be room for people to deconstruct your analysis.

Having said that, it's not as if what you've done in this thread is useless - it's just not useful in the way you want it to be. Your work here is a clear expression of your passion for Chei, but it is not going to convince people to take up your opinion.

I guess so, but I think I would rather just leave this forum. I already have enough experience where I don't require the assistance of this forum at all, and I overall dislike the elitist attitude of the community here. I will admit, I can be pretty opinionated, but I at least put forth effort into my stance, while a significan't chunk does not.

Spoiler: show

Friday, 9th August 2013, 23:16 by BlackSheep

If Vehumet is like an autistic fish to you, we're better off without your posts.

Friday, 9th August 2013, 23:18 by Amnesiac

Why are you even comparing vehumet and chei if they are both not the best choice for a VM?

Saturday, 10th August 2013, 00:10 by Psieye

Tiktacy wrote:people are just going to disagree with me no matter how much sense it makes. =/

Welcome to humanity, one aspect of it. Yes, it's not worth getting worked up over this particular topic (of an opinion in a game). However, you will come across this phenomenon at some point in the future (and not on the Internet) over a topic that does matter. Diplomatic skill is useful to develop so that when this happens when it matters, you can salvage the situation.

This world views Effort to be of secondary importance to Effect. Appropriate skill is what determines how Effort translates to Effect.

Saturday, 10th August 2013, 00:46 by crate

and I overall dislike the elitist attitude of the community here

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Saturday, 10th August 2013, 01:13 by battaile

We're elitist, all thousands of us.

Saturday, 10th August 2013, 02:18 by bobross419

How can you say Veh was a "total flop"? You're at D:10 and he has gifted you multiple spells that can be used to kill poison resistant stuff... and you are just about to get the really good stuff on your next gift or two.

You're making things really difficult on yourself by not relying on Meph... Meph+Sting kills just about everything that is poison resistant - Trolls don't need venom bolt. I usually don't ever bother learning Venom Bolt on my VMs because Meph+Sting works for most things and the ones it doesn't I usually have another spell for already anyways.

Saturday, 10th August 2013, 19:13 by Grimm

O.K. that's enough kids. Tiktacy, don't let the swinging Tavern doors hit you on the way out.

CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

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Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

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Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

Re: CiP: DrVM; God of time vs God of Destruction

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