YASD: DDBe

[Klown]

Just looking for any advice in general as I don't play this combo much, and never saw a rune in my DCSS life.(Would like to change that here!)
Thanks.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12.1 (tiles) character file.

Remy the Severer (Deep Dwarf Berserker)            Turns: 15364, Time: 01:23:03

HP  98/105       AC 28     Str 32      XL: 13   Next: 55%
MP   1/1         EV 16     Int 12      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 965         SH  0     Dex 15 (16) Spells:  0 memorised, 12 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : .   e - +1,+6 battleaxe (venom)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   a - +7 splint mail of Heeleumock {Str+5 Int+3}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   j - +1 helmet
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   i - +4 cloak of Osiulu {rF+}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   o - +0 pair of elf gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   g - amulet of faith
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   h - ring of sustenance
                                     A - +4 ring of strength

@: non-regenerating, quite resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: damage resistance, recharge devices, sense surroundings 2, slow healing 3,
Str +1, Int +1
a: Device Recharging, Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms,
Renounce Religion


You are on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 17 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ice Cave and Volcano.

You have collected 945 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 e - a +1,+6 battleaxe of venom (weapon)
 n - a +1,+2 anti-magic war axe
Armour
 a - the +7 splint mail of Heeleumock (worn) {Str+5 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
 i - the +4 cloak of Osiulu (worn) {rF+}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
 j - a +1 helmet (worn)
 o - a +0 pair of elven gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of heal wounds (8)
Comestibles
 s - 9 bread rations
 t - 4 cheeses
 w - 4 meat rations
Scrolls
 b - 6 scrolls of teleportation
 l - 10 scrolls of remove curse
 m - 2 scrolls of blinking
 q - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
Jewellery
 g - an amulet of faith (around neck)
 h - a ring of sustenance (right hand)
 A - a +4 ring of strength (left hand)
Potions
 d - a potion of agility
 f - a fizzy inky potion
 k - 2 potions of curing
 p - 6 potions of heal wounds
 r - 3 potions of berserk rage
 u - a potion of flight


   Skills:
 - Level 2.6 Fighting
 * Level 16.4 Axes
 * Level 11.4 Armour
 - Level 16.2 Dodging


You have 12 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (9/27)             Temple (0/1) D:5            Lair (8/8) D:9
  Swamp (0/5) Lair:6       Spider (0/5) Lair:3     
   Orc: D:6-11       Slime: Lair:6-8   

Altars:
Cheibriados
Fedhas
Makhleb
Okawaru
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One

Shops:
D:5: *

Annotations
D:9 exclusion: 3 oklob plants
Lair:7 exclusion: oklob plant


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can recharge devices by infusing magical energy.
You passively map the area around you.
You do not heal naturally.
Your mind is acute (Int +1).
Your muscles are strong (Str +1).


Message History

A wyvern comes into view.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
The yak bellows!
The yak gores you but does no damage.
You climb upwards.
Level annotation: exclusion: oklob plant
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
The yak closely misses you.
You hit the yak.
The yak is lightly wounded.
You slice the yak!! The yak is poisoned.
The yak is severely wounded.
The yak gores you but does no damage.
You slash the yak!
You kill the yak!
Trog accepts your kill.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Saving game... please wait.

              ###
           ####.#####
          ##.###.#..#####
##        #...........ff#
.#####   ###............#
P.##.#  ##.............##
.....####....>...<.....#
.###..........@........##
f# #.##.P...............#
## #######.#...........##
###      ##.#...f.....##
#.####### ##.#........#
........## ###P....#f##
....<....#   #.....###
.........### #.....#
........+..###.....##
....................#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  3 black mambas
  An elephant slug (Lair:7)
  5 spiny frogs
  A hill giant zombie (D:6)
  A feature mimic (D:8)
  6 komodo dragons
  A polar bear (IceCv)
  5 blink frogs
  3 basilisks (Lair:3)
  6 hippogriffs
  23 yaks
  A hippogriff (shapeshifter) (D:9)
  A steam dragon (D:9)
  A manticore (Volcano)
  5 war dogs
  A fire drake (Lair:7)
  A sky beast (D:8)
  A black bear (Lair:2)
  A yellow wasp (D:9)
  3 phantoms
  An ice beast (D:8)
  A yak zombie (D:9)
  3 ogres
  2 centaurs
  2 giant goldfish (Lair:6)
  2 boring beetles
  Sigmund (D:4)
  11 giant frogs
  11 crocodiles
  A wolf (IceCv)
  9 giant slugs
  9 water moccasins
  2 big kobolds (D:8)
  A brain worm (Lair:6)
  A giant frog zombie (D:8)
  5 agate snails
  A soldier ant zombie (D:8)
  Blork the orc (D:7)
  A centaur skeleton (D:6)
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:8)
  2 jellyfish (Lair:6)
  3 crimson imps
  A quasit (D:6)
  13 hounds
  An ogre skeleton (D:6)
  A big fish (Lair:6)
  2 orc priests
  A scorpion (D:6)
  2 orc wizards
  8 porcupines
  A worker ant zombie (D:8)
  5 worker ants
  7 iguanas
  A worm zombie (D:5)
  10 sheep
  Ijyb (D:6)
  4 jellies
  8 gnolls
  23 adders
  A human (D:3)
  A giant mite (Lair:4)
  An iguana zombie (D:7)
  25 green rats
  An iguana skeleton (D:6)
  An inept item mimic (D:9)
  9 worms
  2 bat skeletons (D:4)
  A bat zombie (D:5)
  A giant eyeball (D:4)
  7 giant geckos
  An ooze (D:7)
  25 orcs
  6 giant cockroaches
  10 goblins
  13 hobgoblins
  33 jackals
  16 kobolds
  12 quokkas
  4 training dummies (D:5)
  13 bats
  6 giant newts
  A jackal skeleton (D:5)
  A kobold skeleton (D:4)
  22 rats
  12 ballistomycetes (D:8)
  3 plants
458 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  5 hydras
  Maurice (D:8)
  A black mamba (Lair:5)
  An elephant slug (Lair:6)
  A spiny frog (Lair:6)
  A yaktaur (shapeshifter) (D:7)
  Prince Ribbit (Lair:1)
  A komodo dragon (Volcano)
  5 polar bears (IceCv)
  A blink frog (Lair:1)
  A two-headed ogre (D:9)
  3 basilisks
  20 yaks
  2 fire drakes
  Grum (D:8)
  A manticore (shapeshifter) (D:7)
  2 swamp worms (Lair:6)
  Menkaure (D:5)
  A mottled dragon (Volcano)
  6 war dogs
  A phantom (D:7)
  An orc warrior (D:9)
  A giant goldfish (D:5)
  2 wolves (IceCv)
  4 crocodiles
  A big kobold (D:8)
  A centaur (D:7)
  A giant slug (Lair:5)
  2 giant frogs
  A water moccasin (D:8)
  A jellyfish (Lair:6)
  A big fish (Lair:6)
  A scorpion (D:9)
  A hound (D:8)
  A jelly (D:8)
  A giant centipede zombie (D:9)
  6 green rats
  8 worms (Lair:6)
  A giant eyeball (D:5)
  4 orcs
  A bat (Lair:6)
  A jackal (Lair:6)
  A ballistomycete (D:8)
99 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  2 trolls
  2 two-headed ogres
  An ogre (Lair:7)
  A gnoll (D:8)
  An adder (D:7)
  An orc (D:7)
  A ball python (D:1)
  A giant spore (D:8)
  A goblin (D:4)
  3 fungi
14 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 571 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Remy, the Deep Dwarf Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 21/21 MP: 0/0
   241 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Axes
   241 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/28 MP: 1/1
   615 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/34 MP: 2/2
   748 | D:1      | Acquired Trog's second power
   933 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  1428 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 26/43 MP: 3/3
  1526 | D:3      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  2469 | D:4      | Noticed a phantom
  2486 | D:4      | Killed a phantom
  2486 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Axes
  2486 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 44/49 MP: 2/2
  2813 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 33/56 MP: 3/3
  2914 | D:4      | Noticed Sigmund
  2925 | D:4      | Killed Sigmund
  2925 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Axes
  3029 | D:4      | Acquired Trog's third power
  3301 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  3311 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  3335 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3335 | D:5      | Found Tauq's Fishing Supplies.
  3347 | D:5      | Noticed Menkaure
  3357 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  3357 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 30/63 MP: 4/4
  3357 | D:5      | Killed Menkaure
  3371 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  3404 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3443 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Axes
  3468 | D:5      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  3607 | D:5      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  3943 | D:5      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  4067 | D:6      | Noticed Ijyb
  4095 | D:6      | Killed Ijyb
  4142 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 69/70 MP: 4/4
  4432 | D:6      | Noticed a hill giant zombie
  4456 | D:6      | Killed a hill giant zombie
  4456 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Axes
  4898 | D:6      | Received a gift from Trog
  5326 | D:7      | Noticed Blork the orc
  5346 | D:7      | Killed Blork the orc
  5346 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  5567 | D:7      | Gained mutation: You passively map the area around you. [level up]
  5567 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 65/76 MP: 1/4
  5575 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5575 | D:7      | Noticed a blink frog
  5576 | D:7      | Noticed a yaktaur
  5576 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5578 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5578 | D:7      | a blink frog changed into a big kobold
  5623 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
  5629 | D:7      | Killed a yaktaur
  5846 | D:7      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6102 | D:8      | Noticed Maurice
  6108 | D:8      | Killed Maurice
  6308 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Axes
  6422 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed hydra
  6430 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed hydra
  6701 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 85/85 MP: 1/5
  6737 | D:8      | Noticed Grum
  6747 | D:8      | Killed Grum
  6927 | D:8      | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute (Int +1). [potion of gain intelligence]
  7111 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Axes
  7248 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  7258 | D:9      | Noticed an oklob plant
  7258 | D:9      | Noticed an oklob plant
  7258 | D:9      | Noticed an oklob plant
  7389 | D:9      | Noticed a black mamba
  7398 | D:9      | a black mamba changed into something unseen
  7403 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
  7412 | D:9      | Reached skill level 13 in Axes
  7478 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  7570 | D:9      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  7610 | D:9      | Received a gift from Trog
  7980 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  8042 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 58/91 MP: 1/3
  8281 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Trog
  8444 | Lair:1   | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  8455 | Lair:1   | Killed Prince Ribbit
  8925 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 14 in Axes
  9150 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Trog
  9664 | Lair:2   | Got a crude granite ring
  9665 | Lair:2   | Identified the ring "Ciurphie" {Hunger- Str-3 Int-1} (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 10225 | Lair:3   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 10524 | Lair:3   | Got an encrusted splint mail
 10525 | Lair:3   | Identified the +7 splint mail of Heeleumock {Str+5 Int+3} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 10670 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 15 in Axes
 10879 | Lair:3   | Found a frozen archway.
 10909 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 10950 | IceCv    | Noticed an ice statue
 11654 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/98 MP: 1/3
 11682 | Lair:4   | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 2 turns
 11684 | Lair:4   | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong (Str +1). [potion of gain strength]
 11687 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 96/105 MP: 1/3
 11987 | Lair:5   | Received a gift from Trog
 12077 | Lair:5   | Found a dark tunnel.
 12127 | Volcano  | Entered a volcano
 12310 | Lair:5   | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 12388 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 16 in Axes
 12433 | Lair:5   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 12437 | Lair:5   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 12798 | Lair:6   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 12802 | Lair:6   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 12885 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 13099 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 13290 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Trog
 14207 | Lair:7   | Received a gift from Trog
 14337 | Lair:7   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 14348 | Lair:7   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 14696 | Lair:7   | Got a warped cloak
 14699 | Lair:7   | Identified the +4 cloak of Osiulu {rF+} (You found it on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts)
 14950 | Lair:7   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 14962 | Lair:7   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 15354 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Hand axe          |   128 |   176 |   210 |       |       ||   514
       War axe           |       |       |   238 |   774 |   406 ||  1418
       Battleaxe         |       |       |       |       |    71 ||    71
Invok: Berserk           |       |     2 |     6 |     2 |     1 ||    11
       Brothers in Arms  |       |     1 |     4 |     5 |    14 ||    24
       Trog's Hand       |       |       |     1 |     2 |     2 ||     5
       Burn Spellbooks   |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Abil: Device Recharging |       |     2 |     2 |     5 |     2 ||    11
Evoke: Wand              |     1 |    13 |    29 |    65 |    26 ||   134
  Use: Scroll            |     8 |     9 |     8 |    11 |     9 ||    45
       Potion            |       |     8 |     4 |    15 |     3 ||    30
 Stab: Paralysed         |       |       |       |     5 |       ||     5


[zugundertherug]

You've got a faith amulet so spam trog's hand for healing (i think it works for a DD) and save your healing pots/wand charges only for true emergencies or if you've managed to somehow deplete your piety. If you're going for a 3 rune win then not much else to say other than enchant a good armour (gold dragon or CPA would be ideal) and don't die.

[Siegurt]

Actually do not *spam* trog's hand for healing, use it, but still take care to not take excess damage, trog's hand will burn your piety out pretty quickly if you start using it as your go-to healing and treat a DD like a regular "charge in and kill everything until it's dead" berserker, you're much better off building up some piety so you can use BIA for emergencies, and pick up some nice axes in the meantime, in an ideal world vampiric.

My rule is "use healing potions whenever I'm down about 30 points", then "use trog's hand if I'm down about 25 points and don't have any healing potions", then "use wand charges when I'm out of other options" and "always keep some charges in your wand"

Train evocation to get more spell points and better healing power out of your wand at some point.

A nice ego plate armour is fine to enchant, waiting for GDA or CPA is dumb, you'll only see one in a three rune game about one time in two, and much less often if you don't have decent defenses and die before you get to them.

For future information what you usually want to do with this build is: Train your axes to 20 for a battleaxe, to 26 for an executioner's axe, and do it *pronto* Armour and dodging are both useful, but get your offense online first. Around level 12-15 train your fighting up to 10 or so (presuming you've done the axe thing) then get your armour up to 10ish, work on dodging later. Always use the highest AC armour you can, keep one enchant armour scroll un-read, use the rest on gloves/cloak/hat until you've got them all to +2, then start enchanting the best (hopefully ego platemail, possible something nicer) You'll almost certainly have something worth enchanting by the time you're done with orc (Assuming you do D to lair, do lair, then do Orc)

In your case, I'd switch to training Axes, leave armour and dodging alone for a while, get your axe skill to 20 to use your battleaxe (Trog may gift you a better one or an exec axe before you get there) once axes is at 20 or 26 (depending on the type of axe you're using) *then* train your fighting to at least 10 (probably more like 20) *then* get evocation to about 5 (if you run out of max SP recharging your wand before then, you've been overusing it, and probably need to use more defensive tactics) After that point dump a few more points in evocation whenever you get low on max SP.

For .12 don't raise strength any more, 27 is the most you need to use any sort of armour and it doesn't contribute much towards damage at that point.

Raise Dex on your level ups, it will improve your accuracy and increase the effectiveness of your dodging skill.

Once you've got Axes and Fighting up into the 20's then worry about more armour skill, and finally once *that* is in the 20's then you can train more dodging.

[Klown]

Cleared The Lair.
Cleared Swamp 1
Trog gave me a nice battleaxe with orc slaying, so I went and found the Orcish Mines and cleared it.
Cleared half of Elven Halls 1 before running away scared.
Cleared the Spider's Nest and grabbed the Gossamer Rune of Zot, my first rune! Went back to Swamp 1 and saved.

Currently got a +12 +15 Obsidian Axe. So I get mesmerized, forcing battles. Get some demons who follow me for a while then turn evil and stuff. Yay.
My Wand of Heal Wounds is at 0, and I'm out of magic. Been pushing Trog hard to keep me going so far.

[DracheReborn]

My Wand of Heal Wounds is at 0, and I'm out of magic. Been pushing Trog hard to keep me going so far.

Recharge the wand using the DD racial ability. You'll want it handy for emergencies. And it's not like you could use the MP for anything else.

Edit: oh wait, out of magic = out of MP? Holy crap. Well train some evo then.

[Klown]

Died from Super Poison on Swamp 5.
The evil axe wouldn't let me escape. Plus lots of hydras & my axe was cursed. BIA got too high and got stuck.
My fault though.
Got my first rune, I'm happy.

[DracheReborn]

Did you do Spider 5 and Swamp 5 before other areas? Like Orcish Mines and D up to about 20. Those are generally easier areas which would have built up your character a bit more.

Lair branches can often spawn uniques by the way so don't be fooled by how easily you're rolling over popcorn...

[Klown]

Didn't go very far in the dungeon.
I felt it was going smoothly in the branches, so kept going.
I know better next time.

[zxc23]

Obsidian Axe is a death trap. I knew it as soon as I learnt how it worked, but kept on using it for the fun of it.

I entered Vaults:5 early, went berserk, and in the battle to end all battles, I died.

My next MiBe didn't find Obsidian Axe, and ascended.

[Sandman25]

Actually do not *spam* trog's hand for healing, use it, but still take care to not take excess damage, trog's hand will burn your piety out pretty quickly if you start using it as your go-to healing and treat a DD like a regular "charge in and kill everything until it's dead" berserker, you're much better off building up some piety so you can use BIA for emergencies, and pick up some nice axes in the meantime, in an ideal world vampiric.

My rule is "use healing potions whenever I'm down about 30 points", then "use trog's hand if I'm down about 25 points and don't have any healing potions", then "use wand charges when I'm out of other options" and "always keep some charges in your wand"

Trog's Hand costs 2-3 piety, that is incredibly low and you should use it over potions of healing which are much more rare and should be saved for situations when you should heal instantly or die.

[Siegurt]

Well, it comes down to which resources you want to have in an emergency. I'd rather have 1 BIA to summon in a tough combat, and avoid the damage in the first place, then 2 trog's hands to heal that damage afterwards. If I'm in a "heal or die" situation, I'd rather use my wand (Which heals more than the potion with decent evocation) than a potion. On top of which, I'm going to get in the "heal or die" situation way less often per game than "number of heal wounds potions I find".

For me, that means "heal wounds" is lowest on the totem pole and gets cleanup duty for healing. That and the fact that conservation is pretty rare and I find if I don't either use them up or leave them "not on my person" they are destroyed more often than I'd like.

What I find is that if I use trog's hand more than about once every 4-5 fights, my piety drops. Obviously it drops more rapidy if I'm fighting corpseless or even worse undead.

[Sandman25]

  Code:

A wand of heal wounds is a rare wand with an effect similar to a potion of heal wounds, healing its target for 9+1d28 HP (regardless of your Evocations skill)

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Wand_of_heal_wounds

BiA cost 5-6 piety so it is slightly more than two invocations of Trog's Hand. BiA steal my experience so I try not to rely on them unless absolutely necessary.

[DracheReborn]

  Code:

A wand of heal wounds is a rare wand with an effect similar to a potion of heal wounds, healing its target for 9+1d28 HP (regardless of your Evocations skill)

Wow, that's actually correct.

  Code:

inc_hp((10 + random2avg(28, 3)) / factor);


Learned something new today. I thought for sure the wand scaled with Evo.

[Siegurt]

Yes looks like I was incorrect (Was following a red herring, wand uses ZAP_GREATER_HEALING but doesn't follow up with greater healing spell, it only uses that to test for valid targeting)

I'd still rather carry around 1 wand with 9 charges than 9 potions though.

[dirtywick]

Still think you should mix in some evo as a Be though.

[zugundertherug]

Concerning healing with Trog's hand, he had a faith amulet so it would be very hard to drain piety (excluding crypt or especially tomb). Also agree with training evocations as a berserker, I like to train up to 10 or so to get the max summons from elemental evokables.

[Sandman25]

Yes looks like I was incorrect (Was following a red herring, wand uses ZAP_GREATER_HEALING but doesn't follow up with greater healing spell, it only uses that to test for valid targeting)

I'd still rather carry around 1 wand with 9 charges than 9 potions though.

Yes, that's why you want to use potions first and save wands for later. You cannot lose wands to item destruction unless you are playing trunk with nasty ZoT traps.

[Siegurt]

Yes, that was part of my suggestions (use potions first, use trog's hand second, use wand third)

The question is: is it more worth it to use trog's hand or healing potions first.

I think without an amulet of faith I'd definitely always use up my potions first, with an amulet of faith, and six *'s of piety, I personally would probably *still* use my potions first, but perhaps it'd be better to use trog's hand in those cases until/unless you drop down to 5 *'s or something. I dunno, I like having a piety reservoir available for BiA spam, which IMHO is the best thing about having Trog. Although it might be a good idea to save healing potions for doing undead branches (since you can't get any piety there) My general rule with a DD is "Do whatever you can to avoid taking any damage" which I think is good advice no matter what god you're using with them

[Amnesiac]

I think that using trog's hand over potions is preferable, because trog's hand doesn't heal you instantly so you want to have as much potions for dangerous situation as possible. In my experience on deeper levels you either don't use healing potions or use more than one, because one won't help you much, unless you have very good defences

[Siegurt]

Yeah, my rationale is that having BiA spam available is more likely to have me take no damage at all, vs. using trogs hand which may or may not be enough to heal the damage I take when I don't use BiA.

I also have a perception that "having good defenses" is part and parcel of playing a DDBe, like I optimize my DD's for good defense perhaps more than I should. But then again I played a DD Artificer of Nemlex who had as his only god-given healing the occasional Elixir or potion card, and I did Ok.

[Sandman25]

There is a big penalty to earning high piety which makes it hard to stay at 6 stars with Trog so I don't mind spending some piety on healing at 5-6 stars since it will be lost soon any way. I find potion of heal wounds to be one the best potions in the game (only speed is better unless you have Haste) so I would use Trog's Hand first