YASD: Mechanical traps STILL not gone?

[mumra]

I don't usually post YASD's. But this one was like "seriously Crawl?"

Killed by a bolt trap from 39HP on a really promising XL:11 DEWz whilst otherwise completely safely running to some stairs. The creature I was running from wasn't even a threat, I'd just dived into a Labyrinth and was nipping back to L:2 to drop stuff off temporarily.

This game was also notably frustrating due to the lack of finding any damage spells beyond my starting book. But I was coping fine with the tools I had and had cleared up to D:10 and L:3.

So: enough of this, let's just ditch the mechanical traps already.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12-a0-1544-g16b5b17 (tiles) character file.

15703 Wiff the Thaumaturge (level 11, -1/59 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Wizard on Jan 3, 2013.
             Was a Follower of Ashenzari.
             Killed by triggering a bolt trap (40 damage)
             ... on Level 4 of the Lair of Beasts.
             The game lasted 02:20:18 (24306 turns).

Wiff the Thaumaturge (Deep Elf Wizard)             Turns: 24306, Time: 02:20:18

HP  -1/59        AC  9     Str  4      XL: 11   Next: 93%
MP  25/34        EV 15     Int 27      God: Ashenzari [*.....]
Gold 894         SH  7     Dex 13      Spells:  8 memorised, 20 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   a - +5,+2 dagger (venom)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   l - +2 orc robe (curse)
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   e - +0 elf buckler
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : +   N - +0 elf wizard hat (curse)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   n - +1 elf cloak {MR} (curse)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   O - +0 pair of elf gloves (curse)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   A - +1 pair of boots (curse)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   K - cursed amulet of resist corrosion
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   (no ring)
                                     U - cursed ring of flight

@: quite resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight


You were on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worshipped Ashenzari.
Ashenzari was most pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and saw 15 of its levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth.

You collected 900 gold pieces.
You spent 26 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +5,+2 dagger of venom (weapon)
 b - a +0 blowgun
 J - a +0,+0 trident of dragon slaying
Missiles
 i - 10 darts of frost (quivered)
 j - 4 darts of dispersal
 I - 12 poisoned needles
Armour
 e - a +0 elven buckler (worn)
 l - a cursed +2 orcish robe (worn)
 m - a +2 elven robe of magic resistance
 n - a cursed +1 elven cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 A - a cursed +1 pair of boots (worn)
 F - a +2 robe of resistance
 N - a cursed +0 elven wizard hat (worn)
 O - a cursed +0 pair of elven gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 s - a wand of enslavement (12)
 T - a wand of heal wounds (2)
Comestibles
 d - 2 bread rations
 t - 2 meat rations
 D - 3 pears
Scrolls
 c - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 f - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 g - a scroll of amnesia
 h - 3 scrolls of identify
 u - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 w - a scroll of blinking
 x - 2 scrolls of noise
 L - a scroll of fog
 S - 2 scrolls of fear
Jewellery
 o - an uncursed ring of fire
 v - an uncursed amulet of stasis
 y - an uncursed ring of protection from cold {unknown}
 K - a cursed amulet of resist corrosion (around neck)
 U - a cursed ring of flight (left hand)
Potions
 k - 4 potions of curing
 p - 2 potions of agility {unknown}
 q - 5 potions of brilliance
 r - 2 potions of degeneration {unknown}
 z - 2 potions of restore abilities
 B - a potion of poison {unknown}
 C - 2 potions of magic
 G - a potion of resistance {unknown}
 H - 2 potions of heal wounds {unknown}
 M - 2 potions of speed


   Skills:
 * Level 6.1 Fighting
 + Level 7.3 Throwing
 + Level 7.3 Dodging
 + Level 4.1 Stealth
 + Level 0.2 Stabbing
 + Level 1.8 Traps
 + Level 14.3 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.9 Conjurations
 + Level 5.4 Hexes
 + Level 1.7 Charms
 + Level 2.4 Summonings
 + Level 2.3 Translocations
 + Level 4.0 Fire Magic
 + Level 2.2 Air Magic
 + Level 2.2 Poison Magic
 + Level 1.4 Evocations


You had 20 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          2    None
d - Call Imp              Summ           #####.....   1%          2    None
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ######...    1%          3    None
f - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      #######..    1%          3    None
g - Slow                  Hex            ######...    1%          2    None
h - Confuse               Hex            ######...    1%          3    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (0/4) D:6
   Lair (4/8) D:9          Shoals (0/5) Lair:3     
 Swamp: Lair:3-6     Snake: Lair:3-6    Spider: Lair:3-6   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:8: [

Annotations
D:8 Iron golem!

Message History

The griffon bites you but does no damage.
The griffon closely misses you.
The griffon claws you but does no damage.
The spiny frog stings you! The spiny frog closely misses you.
The agate snail is engulfed in noxious fumes.
Casting: Confuse
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Confuse
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - spiny frog, p - griffon
Aim: a spiny frog
The spiny frog appears confused.
The griffon closely misses you. The griffon barely misses you. The griffon completely misses you.
The spiny frog stings the fungus!
Move the cursor to view the level map, or type ? for a list of commands.
Returning to the game...
The spiny frog barely misses the boring beetle.
You see here a potion of magic.
A bolt shoots out and hits you!
Ouch! That really hurt!
You die...

########      ########        ### ##
.##f#..########..#...##########$##.##.
.......................?..............
...B...............H!.@..............
.................................#
...........#.+##.................##
###...f........#...#.###+#...#...f#
# ##...f........................<##
   #...#...........#....###..#...#
   #...#.##....P../...#.# ##.P...#
  ...................####  #.P...#
  ...>.........###...#     #.#...#
  .........####f##.#..#    #.#...#
   ####.#..    ##..#.f#    #..f...
      ###..      ..+..#     fff###
          .      ..P.


You could see a griffon.

Vanquished Creatures
  2 hydras
  A minotaur (Lab)
  2 hill giants (D:10)
  Pikel (D:7)
  An elephant slug (Lair:3)
  2 elephants
  3 spiny frogs
  A feature mimic (Lair:2)
  Prince Ribbit (D:7)
  A troll (D:9)
  A hungry ghost (D:10)
  Grum (D:8)
  4 war dogs (Lair:2)
  5 hippogriffs
  Edmund (D:9)
  A necrophage (D:7)
  7 ogres
  2 orc warriors
  2 ice beasts
  7 crocodiles
  A phantom (D:10)
  4 slaves (D:7)
  6 centaurs
  2 wargs
  2 sky beasts
  3 giant slugs
  2 gnoll sergeants
  A water moccasin (Lair:2)
  10 giant frogs
  4 agate snails
  Blork the orc (D:7)
  4 wights (D:10)
  2 electric eels (D:8)
  A big kobold zombie (D:7)
  2 goliath beetles
  7 crimson imps
  A hound zombie (D:8)
  15 hounds
  4 orc priests
  A shadow (D:7)
  A quasit (D:9)
  A hound skeleton (D:5)
  5 iguanas
  5 orc wizards
  2 worker ant zombies (D:9)
  2 gnoll shamans (D:8)
  3 porcupines
  2 scorpions
  6 worker ants
  Ijyb (D:2)
  2 jellies
  10 adders
  30 gnolls
  An iguana zombie (D:8)
  2 adder skeletons (D:5)
  3 giant mites
  29 green rats
  An inept item mimic (D:3)
  4 worms
  A white imp (D:7)
  2 giant eyeballs (D:8)
  An ooze (D:2)
  27 orcs
  10 giant cockroaches
  15 hobgoblins
  30 jackals
  8 quokkas
  19 bats
  10 giant geckos
  A giant gecko zombie (D:6)
  6 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:10)
  15 goblins
  26 kobolds
  An orc skeleton (D:4)
  An orc zombie (D:6)
  20 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:4)
  A ballistomycete (D:10)
  2 fungi
  A plant (Lair:3)
  16 toadstools
444 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:8)
  A giant frog (D:7)
  A wight (D:10)
  A hound (D:8)
  2 jellies
  A worm (D:3)
  3 orcs (D:3)
  2 bats (D:3)
12 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  3 crimson imps
  4 white imps
  A fungus (Lair:3)
  52 toadstools
60 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 516 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Wiff, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 8/8 MP: 7/7
   117 | D:1      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
   362 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/13 MP: 10/10
   366 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   369 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
   372 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
   386 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
   954 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 17/17 MP: 8/14
  1005 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  1442 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
  1456 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
  1605 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 22/22 MP: 17/17
  1610 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  1991 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  2574 | D:3      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  2619 | D:3      | You fall through a shaft!
  2624 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 26/26 MP: 15/20
  2667 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Slow
  2689 | D:4      | Noticed an ice beast
  2703 | D:4      | Killed an ice beast
  2703 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
  2918 | D:4      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  2993 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  3002 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  3002 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
  3002 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 31/31 MP: 6/23
  4118 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4154 | D:5      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  4198 | D:5      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  4254 | D:5      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  4324 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
  4617 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 35/35 MP: 23/25
  5503 | D:6      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  5513 | D:6      | Became a worshipper of Ashenzari the Shackled
  5566 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6298 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  6315 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  6382 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  6444 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  6462 | D:7      | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
  6462 | D:7      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 13/40 MP: 17/27
  6485 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  6485 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  6485 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  7107 | D:7      | Noticed Pikel
  7261 | D:7      | Killed Pikel
  7431 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
  7431 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 36/44 MP: 16/29
  7566 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  8923 | D:7      | Noticed Blork the orc
  8955 | D:7      | Killed Blork the orc
  9439 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  9512 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  9579 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 10334 | D:8      | Found Majauj's Antique Armour Shop.
 10459 | D:8      | Bought an embroidered elven cloak for 26 gold pieces
 10899 | D:8      | Noticed Grum
 10917 | D:8      | Killed Grum
 10917 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
 11473 | D:8      | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse
 11610 | D:8      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 11610 | D:8      | Noticed an iron golem
 11892 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
 11903 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 28/50 MP: 10/31
 12461 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 12496 | D:9      | Noticed Edmund
 12535 | D:9      | Killed Edmund
 13146 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 14210 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Throwing
 14734 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14746 | D:10     | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
 15104 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Traps
 15170 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 15195 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 15542 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 15575 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 15575 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 16418 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 16441 | Lair:1   | HP: 1/52 [iguana (10)]
 16788 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 45/56 MP: 12/33
 16967 | Lair:1   | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 18030 | Lair:1   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 18066 | Lair:1   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 18066 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
 18867 | Lair:2   | Found a dark tunnel.
 18874 | Lair:2   | the dark tunnel was a mimic.
 19103 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 19753 | Lair:3   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 19765 | Lair:3   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 19823 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 21705 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
 21961 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
 23654 | Lair:4   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 23663 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 24169 | Lab      | Noticed a minotaur
 24174 | Lab      | Killed a minotaur
 24224 | Lab      | Got the glaive of the Abyss {antimagic, rElec}
 24306 | Lair:4   | Killed by triggering a bolt trap


[dassem]

40 HP from a bolt trap does sound high! The bot says it does 1d40 damage, so I guess you were just lucky.
Was this changed? I remember them as less deadly (the wiki says it should do up to 13+DL damage, which is almost the same).

I recently had my own bolt trap YASD: I had previously found the trap, but stepped onto it a second time to animate the corpse that was lying on it. It even asked me if I was sure I really wanted to do that - and I was.

I don't know if I'd remove them all. Would that also mean removing the traps skill altogether?
Although I must admit that it does feel a bit Nethack-ish that one wrong step randomly gives an insta-death.
In some ways I like the idea of having them always visible, such that you would have to make a tactical choice to step into the trap (as I did) but not random deaths. In that case the traps skill would probably just be used to help you escape the consequences. That would make traps more "tactical" but less atmospheric.

[Edit] To play the devil's advocate for a second: Of course, if you'd trained traps more or fighting higher for 2 extra HP, then that could have saved you. So it could be argued that even unknown traps really do present a long term tactical dilemma. Hmm.

[XuaXua]

I do not know if anything changed in trunk, but traps seem more dangerous.

[Psieye]

I've had a Sp die like this as well - was going well and then "oops, you failed to spot the bolt trap. You die." But worse was when I had a HO read a blink scroll and die because my destination happened to have a bolt trap.

[dpeg]

mumra: Yes, it happens occasionally, and it's not fun, even if a rare death -- I had it, too. The days of mechanical traps are numbered, I think. There are some bits to resolve, which is why they still linger around. For example: what to do with the Traps skill? It would only do something for a small (if interesting) set of traps after the cut.

[rebthor]

Funny because I came in to post what I felt was perhaps the most frustrating recent death myself and it almost perfectly matches yours.

  Code:

You bite the big kobold skeleton!
You bite the big kobold skeleton! The big kobold skeleton hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You bite the big kobold skeleton!!
You destroy the big kobold skeleton!
Okawaru accepts your kill.
Your transformation has ended.
You fall off the wall. A bolt shoots out and hits you!
You die...


  Code:

15479 rebthor the Black Belt (level 12, -2/92 HPs)
Began as a Naga Transmuter on Jan 3, 2013.
Was a High Priest of Okawaru.
Killed by triggering a bolt trap (38 damage)
... on Level 12 of the Dungeon on Jan 4, 2013.
The game lasted 02:14:09 (14020 turns).

[rebthor]

mumra: Yes, it happens occasionally, and it's not fun, even if a rare death -- I had it, too. The days of mechanical traps are numbered, I think. There are some bits to resolve, which is why they still linger around. For example: what to do with the Traps skill? It would only do something for a small (if interesting) set of traps after the cut.

Sorry to double post, but I kind of like mumra's idea that traps or at least knowledge of a trap on the square is known. While 90% (figure completely made up) of the time it won't matter, 90% of the time now it doesn't matter either, unless it leads to a cheap death. If that change were made, then players might still be put in a tactical situation, the same as they are now.

[BlackSheep]

I do not know if anything changed in trunk, but traps seem more dangerous.

Traps' damage used to scale by dungeon depth. Their damage range was changed to be fixed. (I believe in 0.11)

[daggaz]

mumra: Yes, it happens occasionally, and it's not fun, even if a rare death -- I had it, too. The days of mechanical traps are numbered, I think. There are some bits to resolve, which is why they still linger around. For example: what to do with the Traps skill? It would only do something for a small (if interesting) set of traps after the cut.

Any reason why they are going, or is there a thread for that discussion?

I kind of like them, both as a source of ammo if I am using crossbows or needles, and as a useful environmental challenge that might kill me but can be turned against pursuing monsters, as well. (shafts are just incredible for this, but thats not mechanical so i digress). As far as forcing a non-choice on players (you have to boost trap skill or you will die eventually), I really only see that as a problem with the skill itself, and then again, there is still the choice as to _when_ to begin boosting it, versus your other skills.

Generally tho, I get my weapon delay to minimum and then focus my secondary skill while turning on traps in the background. Usually its ten or so before I get to a point where deep shafts or zot traps are a threat, and by then, weapon traps are usually not a major concern...

[crate]

The best level for traps skill is already 0 (slight exaggeration but you should not waste xp on traps skill while you have actually useful skills to learn).

They give you very minimal ammo (if this is really a concern then ammo generation can be tweaked anyway), the practice of kiting monsters to mechanical traps to damage them is frowned upon (it falls under grinding: there's very minimal risk of kiting for instance an orc pack to a blade trap, and there is minimal but possibly worthwhile reward).

So basically mechanical traps right now only do 2 things, neither of which is desirable: they will randomly kill unlucky characters in a way that feels truly horrible; and they will occasionally damage some enemies (or more than occasionally if you kite enemies back to them).

[Tiber]

I feel you as well. Lost a good MuCK last weekend. I managed to kill a bunch of dangerous enemies due to a chain-inner flame courtesy of Xom, including a hill giant-turned-anaconda on D:9 or 10. Went back to heal, even ran from a hobgoblin and adder because I only had 11 hp and wanted to be absolutely safe. Then suddenly I'm looking at my inventory going WTF?!

It wouldn't be so bad if they had something like a torment trap (though maybe taking a lower % of health), where it could hurt you but never kill you.

[daggaz]

Found the (locked) thread. Weeeellll that was an interesting "discussion".

Seems strange that kiting a monster thru a trap is frowned upon, I would think intelligent use of the environment was a good thing. Also its not much different than say, kiting a poisoned monster, is it? Easy fix: the trap only works once and then the monster knows about it (if thats not the way it already is). As it is, I only lured a monster thru traps when I was in dire straights, often some OOD bastard where any assistance was welcome.

I can see why low level mechanical traps are trivial and boring tho, at least at higher levels, and why insta-kill traps are doubly so. As far as the skill investment, I died too many times by getting multi-shafted to not put a few points in it, often with supposedly promising characters or some lucky! equipment. And I dont hear people complaining about shafts, so that is a confusing remark.

I think one way to non-trivialize traps would be to up the difficulty factor in passing them. As it stands now, you auto-detect really, really easily, and then its apparently zero risk to walk over and over that tile. Mechanical traps should be springable regardless of whether you know about them or not, the chances should just go down a bit. Flavor wise, its a difficult construction to pass by without triggering, especially if you were say, in a hurry, or god help you, fighting in the tile. An undetected trap would do even more damage, or perhaps better, have some kind of more interesting effect tied into it, like hampering your speed for some turns afterwards (you get hamstrung or a huge bruise on your leg). Tie disarming them to dex or even str depending on the trap, and make them risky to disarm without a very large skill investment. Now you have the problem of corridors suddenly becoming not-so-safe to flee back up into, which in my opinion, becomes somewhat of a stale routine for many characters.

And of course, change their flavors as you level up. Early game, dart traps can be risky for a low hp character, and darts are a commodity. Later on, not so much, so make different traps instead of just upping the damage, which is pretty much the boring zelda equivalent of changing the monster from red to blue and doubling all his numbers.

Anyhow, my two cents. Feel free to criticize, I wont be begging for a thread lockdown.

[daggaz]

I feel you as well. Lost a good MuCK last weekend. I managed to kill a bunch of dangerous enemies due to a chain-inner flame courtesy of Xom, including a hill giant-turned-anaconda on D:9 or 10. Went back to heal, even ran from a hobgoblin and adder because I only had 11 hp and wanted to be absolutely safe. Then suddenly I'm looking at my inventory going WTF?!

It wouldn't be so bad if they had something like a torment trap (though maybe taking a lower % of health), where it could hurt you but never kill you.

That is exactly why traps are still kind of interesting. Running around at low hps is a risk you take. Some people say it just forces you to hit 5, then o again, but you cant always do that, which makes it interesting. Other times, running around at low hps is just a stupid player mistake. I cleared a room of some ogres, was at 20 hps, and decided to pick up the potion and 2 scrolls before resting. Blade trap in the middle of the room stopped that little enterprise short. I laughed and appreciated the lesson, the dungeon (and not just the monsters) should be deadly.

[dpeg]

daggaz: That is the original idea, but it doesn't work that way: if we want to kill the player with HP loss, monsters do the trick much better than anonymous traps. If you want to punish exploration at low health (I am not sure this needs further discouragement), a trap which summons a monster is much better. Even if you die the next turn, it's a more fun death than "The bolt hits you. You die!"

[daggaz]

Summon monster traps are fun (I like the ceiling hatch that dumps spiders).

What about:

Poisonous gas. Blocks LoS, but at same time causes hp and stat damage.
Buffing traps. Every monster in the room (or even nearby rooms) gets hasted or invis or rage etc.. include the player possibly.
Minotaur trap. You hear a grinding noise. Labyrinth has now shifted, perhaps opening a vault to a dangerous OOD creature. (might be tricky to code randomly)
Animate trap. All nearby corpses, weapons, and even suits of armor animate and attack the player. Hell, even include plants if we ever get more plant monsters besides oklobs.
Mark of Death. Every monster in the area/dungeon is magically aware of your exact position and begins moving towards you. This could be an instaneous or permanent (for that dungeon level) effect. Like alarm traps but far, far worse.
Pan trap. You open the gates to hell. Demons begin invading this level of the dungeon from random portals.

[Tiber]

I agree with dpeg. Even a summoned monster has a presence; dying to an undiscovered trap feels like being killed by nothing. I had already gone back up the stairs to an explored level to avoid another monster who heard the noise, and I think (can't check right now) I was training traps.

[mumra]

After I posted this YASD I started a discussion in Game Design: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6633&p=88743

It's actually a long-running debate that I've been involved in before. (Actually I implemented the new gas traps as part of an attempt to make traps more diverse and interesting). More than anything I was simply surprised that insta-death traps still hadn't been removed! Especially since a couple of months ago I saw a comment that they'd been removed in trunk, which turned out to be false..

I would say that 40HP is far too high for L:4, I don't think even a Hydra did this much damage to my character. I was probably unlucky with a max roll, or maybe the damage is scaling too much by level in .11?

Today now that I'm less bitter I would actually favour keeping the traps whilst solving the insta-death problem - I proposed a couple of alternatives in the Game Design thread but whether these ideas gain any traction over outright removal is another question; although it should be noted that I am also offering to code the patch if a definite decision can be made

What about: (...)

Some nice ideas, some of these have already been suggested/implemented. Anyway you should add your suggestions to the dev wiki page so they don't get lost: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps

I agree with dpeg. Even a summoned monster has a presence; dying to an undiscovered trap feels like being killed by nothing. I had already gone back up the stairs to an explored level to avoid another monster who heard the noise, and I think (can't check right now) I was training traps.

I think what is really annoying about this is that according to most people the #1 piece of advice for playing Crawl is "if in doubt, run away". The real possibility of getting one-shotted by a trap whilst running away puts you in a lose-lose situation which is extremely unfun, and makes it better to actually stand and fight if there is any chance of winning rather than leaving it completely up to the RNG to decide whether to dump a trap at your feet!

[Grimm]

For example: what to do with the Traps skill? It would only do something for a small (if interesting) set of traps after the cut.

Maybe make Traps a strictly racial advantage/disadvantage, with maybe some artefact boosters?

[nicolae]

Poisonous gas. Blocks LoS, but at same time causes hp and stat damage.
Buffing traps. Every monster in the room (or even nearby rooms) gets hasted or invis or rage etc.. include the player possibly.
Minotaur trap. You hear a grinding noise. Labyrinth has now shifted, perhaps opening a vault to a dangerous OOD creature. (might be tricky to code randomly)
Animate trap. All nearby corpses, weapons, and even suits of armor animate and attack the player. Hell, even include plants if we ever get more plant monsters besides oklobs.
Mark of Death. Every monster in the area/dungeon is magically aware of your exact position and begins moving towards you. This could be an instaneous or permanent (for that dungeon level) effect. Like alarm traps but far, far worse.
Pan trap. You open the gates to hell. Demons begin invading this level of the dungeon from random portals.

A lot of these have the problem of existing traps, where if there's no monsters around, you just wait off the effects (HP loss, poison) and go on. The labyrinth already shifts on its own. Pan trap might be an interesting variant on the summon-monster genre.

[Lasty]

The Zot trap does a wide variety of interesting and painful things, but some of the things it does could make good traps in and of themselves. The first one that comes to mind would be a contamination trap (or mutation trap or temporary mutation trap?). It would make carrying scrolls of vulnerability somewhat more useful, and also provide a dangerous non-fatal magical trap. If mutations seem too severe, then temporary ones would probably do just fine.

[mumra]

Could also just...not have a traps skill. We had no problem getting rid of the Darts skill.

Presumably by folding it into the Throwing skill? Darts were not removed outright...

[BlackSheep]

I thought Darts skill was for when hand crossbows were still a thing.

[Pereza0]

Buffing traps. Every monster in the room (or even nearby rooms) gets hasted or invis or rage etc.. include the player possibly.

This is way way to exploitable by players. I don't like the idea of having traps that only work in favour of monsters anyway, if they didn't deliberately step on them at all times they would seem stupid, if they did they would ruin your game.

I also think it would be fun having stronger traps that acted with some sort of delay (you activate the time trap! you hear the tick of a clock, maybe hold the player in place to), without the player being entirely sure of what the effects of the trap might be and having to decide whether to face it, possibly dying or use a consumable like teleport or blink before hell breaks loose.

Should be a summon or maybe several wall tiles should start shooting bolts at the player after the delay

[njvack]

I don't like the idea of having traps that only work in favour of monsters anyway, if they didn't deliberately step on them at all times they would seem stupid, if they did they would ruin your game.

Monster AI is deliberately bad. Orc Priests should smite you with every available action -- it's far and away their most damaging attack so to not do so seems stupid. But if they did it would ruin your game.

[Pereza0]

I don't like the idea of having traps that only work in favour of monsters anyway, if they didn't deliberately step on them at all times they would seem stupid, if they did they would ruin your game.

Monster AI is deliberately bad. Orc Priests should smite you with every available action -- it's far and away their most damaging attack so to not do so seems stupid. But if they did it would ruin your game.

Well, yeah, but that is kind of a staple in videogames anyway.

[danr]

I think it's not "mechanical" traps that are the problem, but traps that cause instant HP loss. But I agree, such traps don't really add much to the game. If you encounter them while simply exploring, then you just rest up before continuing.

But if you encounter them while in a dangerous situation, then there's a chance it could insta-kill you in a not-fun way.

And, once you discover it, it can mess up auto-travel because the auto-travel seems to think traps are walls. "Sorry, I don't know how to get there"

The only benefit is ammo, that could be replaced with increased ammo generation. And sometimes that ammo could be placed on an actual interesting trap...

[mumra]

The only benefit is ammo, that could be replaced with increased ammo generation. And sometimes that ammo could be placed on an actual interesting trap...

I can't now remember where this line of thinking originally came from, but it's certainly not true - there's plenty enough ammo in the game without needing to abuse traps for a few extra darts (I think the main thing might be nets for gladiators, and net traps are absolutely fine anyway).

It's always nice having an actually tempting item sat on a "good" trap of course

[Amnesiac]

Yes... Damaging traps should go and T&D should be used for zot traps or traps that can be placed by player. Bacuse they are not fun(if it's you who step into them), but frustrating. But it's a bit of fun to read posts like this. But my condolences.

[Cragspyder]

The way I see it, the chances of getting one-shot by a trap while running or fighting are about the same as the chances of turning a corner and getting one-shot by an out-of-depth monster, such as an orc warrior on D:1, or one-shot by a normal monster with a good branded weapon, such as a kobold with a short sword of electrocution on D:1.

So, I don't understand why these traps are considered bad game design when these other two scenarios are apparently fine. All three are unavoidable deaths, after all, unless of course you don't use autoexplore and shout before you round every corner.

[Psieye]

The chances are quite skewed towards dying to traps compared to that scenario. It's not about being one-shot from full HP as in your scenario. It's about moving to what should have been a safe spot to escape while in a low HP situation. Few people will round a corner into unexplored territory while at low HP - a lot of people will retreat along a slightly differnet path that they've explored prior and then get gimped by a trap that happened to be there.