CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?


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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Monday, 5th August 2019, 22:36

CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

A classic Tm here, I wonder if I should learn Confusing Touch. In a roleplay flavour, it seems really right for a Tm, but my question is more about the efficience of the spell ;)
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.24-a0-528-g98e85ec62a (webtiles) character file.

mopl the Grappler (Minotaur Transmuter)            Turns: 19893, Time: 01:02:34

Health: 126/126    AC: 10    Str: 31    XL:     14   Next: 74%
Magic:  20/20      EV: 27    Int: 28    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   1120       SH:  0    Dex: 27    Spells: 2/20 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis .     - Unarmed
rCold    . . .     Gourm    +   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   U - +0 troll leather armour
rPois    +         Spirit   .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    +         Reflect  .   h - +0 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   Q - +2 pair of gloves
MR       +....                  Y - +0 pair of boots
Stlth    +.........             W - amulet of the gourmand
HPRegen  0.71/turn              k - +3 ring of evasion
MPRegen  0.17/turn              N - ring "Bimytec" {*Slow rElec rPois rF+++ Stlth-}

@: very slow
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You are very full.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 18 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ossuary.

You have collected 1711 gold pieces.
You have spent 591 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Missiles
 a - 319 arrows
 f - a throwing net
 p - 70 poisoned darts
 x - 3 curare-tipped darts
 E - 15 boomerangs (quivered)
 I - 6 javelins
 P - 12 atropa-tipped darts
Armour
 h - a +0 cloak (worn)
 Q - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
 U - a +0 troll leather armour (worn)
 Y - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 i - an uncursed ring of see invisible
 k - a +3 ring of evasion (left hand)
 q - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 t - an uncursed ring of resist corrosion
 F - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 N - the ring "Bimytec" (right hand) {*Slow rElec rPois rF+++ Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of poison resistance]
   
   It renders you almost immune to fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
   It may slow you when you take damage.
   It makes you less stealthy.
 W - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
Wands
 b - a wand of clouds (6)
 l - a wand of disintegration (16)
 n - a wand of acid (24)
 r - a wand of iceblast (11)
 A - a wand of digging (7)
 L - a wand of enslavement (8)
 M - a wand of polymorph (1)
 Z - a wand of flame (53)
Scrolls
 e - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 g - 11 scrolls of teleportation
 j - 6 scrolls of blinking
 o - 5 scrolls labeled NOFIKE EBOOWER
 y - 5 scrolls of fog
 G - 5 scrolls of identify
Potions
 c - 12 potions of curing
 v - 9 potions of heal wounds
 w - 6 potions of lignification {!q}
 z - 3 potions of agility
 B - 4 potions of brilliance
 C - a potion of ambrosia
 D - 5 potions of might
 J - 6 potions of flight
 K - a potion of resistance
 R - a potion of cancellation
Miscellaneous
 u - a box of beasts
 O - a lamp of fire
 V - a phial of floods
Comestibles
 d - 40 rations


   Skills:
 + Level 12.0 Fighting
 + Level 8.8 Throwing
 + Level 5.9 Armour
 + Level 11.2 Dodging
 * Level 14.1 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 3.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 8.5 Transmutations
 - Level 3.0 Ice Magic
 - Level 2.0 Poison Magic
 + Level 9.4 Invocations
 + Level 0.0 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Apportation           Tloc           #.....       9%          1    None
b - Spider Form           Tmut/Pois      #####.....   2%          3    ##.....
c - Blade Hands           Tmut           ######....   7%          5    #####..
d - Ice Form              Ice/Tmut       #####...     8%          4    ####...
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #.........   26%         3    ##.....
w - Sticks to Snakes      Tmut           ######..     1%          2    None

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Beastly Appendage        Tmut           ######       1%          1    None
 Freeze                   Ice            ###.         2%          1    None
 Throw Frost              Conj/Ice       ##....       7%          2    None
 Animate Skeleton         Necr           N/A          9%          1    None
 Confusing Touch          Hex            #.....       9%          1    None
 Pain                     Necr           #...         9%          1    None
 Shock                    Conj/Air       #...         9%          1    None
 Summon Small Mammal      Summ           #...         9%          1    None
 Call Imp                 Summ           #.......     13%         2    None
 Swiftness                Chrm/Air       #.......     13%         2    None
 Ozocubu's Armour         Chrm/Ice       ##......     14%         3    ##.....
 Call Canine Familiar     Summ           #.......     26%         3    ##.....
 Static Discharge         Conj/Air       #.......     26%         3    ##.....
 Summon Guardian Golem    Hex/Summ       #.......     26%         3    ##.....
 Vampiric Draining        Necr           #.........   26%         3    ##.....
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       ####......   38%         5    #####..
 Summon Ice Beast         Ice/Summ       ##......     41%         4    ####...
 Throw Icicle             Conj/Ice       ##......     41%         4    ####...
 Airstrike                Air            #.........   63%         4    ####...
 Animate Dead             Necr           N/A          63%         4    ####...
 Cause Fear               Hex            #.........   63%         4    ####...
 Summon Lightning Spire   Summ/Air       #.......     63%         4    ####...
 Lightning Bolt           Conj/Air       #.........   93%         5    #####..
 Silence                  Hex/Air        #.........   93%         5    #####..
 Deflect Missiles         Chrm/Air       #.........   100%        6    #######
 Discord                  Hex            #.........   100%        8    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (12/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:11
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:2       Spider (0/4) Lair:2        Slime (0/5) Lair:5
    Orc (0/2) D:12       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Xom
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:6 !   D:10 }?[=%

Annotations:
Lair:1 exclusion: 3 oklob plants
Lair:5 3 runed translucent doors, Ruytusch's ghost, journeyman MiBe


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

Okay, then.
Drop what? 52/52 slots (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Drop what? 52/52 slots (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Items here: ! " = ???? ||
Drop what? 52/52 slots (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You drop 2 scrolls of holy word.
You drop a crystal ball of energy.
You drop 2 scrolls of amnesia.
You drop a scroll of immolation.
You drop 2 scrolls of enchant armour.
You drop a potion of mutation {!q}.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Okay, then.
Unknown command.

                 #..#####.##
     ###  ###   ##..# #....###
   ###.####.#   #)..###......#
   #........#####..###........#
   #...............##........##
   ##..............###........#
    #..............###........#
    #.............###.........#
    #..........<@.# #.........#
    #.............# #.........#
    #.............###.........#
### ##...........###..........#
..## ##...........##.........##
...#  #.....................##
...## #..........#..P......##
....# ##...........##......#
....###..........#####....##


There are no monsters in sight!
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 335

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Monday, 5th August 2019, 22:49

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

I wouldn't call a MiCaster classic :)

From what the dump shows, I would take a lot of XP to make CT useful - I've tried hexes on characters with much better casting aptitudes. The more quickly you can bring up the #s, the better. It is also made more difficult by your skilling, you have active training on like 10 skills at once.

So yes, Confusing touch is good, but not with the current build and skilling. I'd just get the Regeneration to a comfortable %, and maybe Ozocubu's for extra AC when transformed.
There is always something new to learn.

Blades Runner

Posts: 584

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Monday, 5th August 2019, 23:30

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

Actually, confusing touch doesn't need ### as far as I know. The ### only effects the duration, the chance is dependent on HD only.

Confusing Touch can be really good, but I usually end up not needing it.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6221

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 00:27

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

Confusing touch is currently one of the more overpowered spells in the game, it takes almost nothing to get it going, and it debilitates stuff without a MR check. It's somewhat *better* if your stabby, or use axes or polearms, or are worshipping wujian, but with even just a plain old fast-ish attack (which all transmuters have) it's still really good.

There's a point at which it gets less worthwhile (Hint:what makes it overpowered is that it's *way* later than it should be for a level 1 spell), but it only costs 1 spell slot, so it's almost silly not to memorize it if you aren't worshipping trog.

A typical transmuter^chei can cast it with no Hex skill investment at all just cast it off pure int and spellcasting skill and that will be plenty.

For chei-users it can be an alternate way of being able to "just walk away from combat" which usually is limited pretty severely by the movement penalty.
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 430

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 16:06

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

CT confuse doesn't last very long, so it would be hard to do much with it using chei other than interrupting monsters with abilities. But you can also accomplish this by killing them.

CT is one of the few ways stabbers can still stab enemies in extended, though it wouldn't hurt to balance this spell and give stabbers an alternative in extended. Right now CT is still viable vs gold/shadow dragons and such and for a level 1 spell that's a bit strange. Maybe it should just have its level increased?

I certainly don't like it as a routine use spell on chei followers though. Confused monsters move around too much for that.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6221

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 17:35

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

TheMeInTeam wrote:CT confuse doesn't last very long, so it would be hard to do much with it using chei other than interrupting monsters with abilities. But you can also accomplish this by killing them.

CT is one of the few ways stabbers can still stab enemies in extended, though it wouldn't hurt to balance this spell and give stabbers an alternative in extended. Right now CT is still viable vs gold/shadow dragons and such and for a level 1 spell that's a bit strange. Maybe it should just have its level increased?

I certainly don't like it as a routine use spell on chei followers though. Confused monsters move around too much for that.

What I like about it for a Chei worshipper is to confuse one or two critters so they can wander around while you pound on a third critter when you get caught by a small pack not-in-a-corridor, also confuse+retreat (particularly upstairs) is very helpful to have available for a Chei worshipper (particularly when it costs you literally nothing)

Also a non-transmuter Chei worshipper can use it with ranged attacks to great effect.

You're correct that it's less good on a Chei worshipper than it is if you have normal movement speed (or fast movement even better) since chasing things around and whacking them is counterproductive at best. But if you look at it as "X creature has a much smaller chance it did of hitting me each turn and can't cast spells for a while,and can't follow me up stairs" rather than expecting the offensive boost it can be for stabbers, you can see it's still pretty darn good
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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 159

Joined: Monday, 2nd July 2018, 16:47

Location: United States

Post Tuesday, 6th August 2019, 19:18

Re: CiP : MiTm^Chei, is Confusing Touch good ?

For a transmuter at this stage of the game, Confusing Touch is not very good. CT makes your attacks do 0 damage while attempting to apply the confusion. You have 3 (UC base) + 14 (UC skill) + 19 (blade hands) = 36 BASE damage, and 31 strength. You hit like a truck. You can kill enemies with damage nearly as fast as you could confuse them with CT, and killing is much better; the confuse duration on CT is pretty short, so the confused enemy is still relevant (it's not the figurative death that the Confuse spell inflicts).

The support spell you really want is Ozocubu's Armour. Animate Dead and Lightning Spire are good in general but somewhat redundant for you, since you have Sticks to Snakes. Yara's, Silence, and Deflect Missiles are useful, but they're more expensive and situational.

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