Build Dilemmas


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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 174

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Friday, 22nd September 2017, 16:42

Build Dilemmas

Soo, running a GrEE of Chei build. Was planning on just doing an Axe-tank caster type.

Then I've found a remarkably good (for D:7) artefact rapier.

Thoughts? I'm not too far into a build to redirect since I haven't found shields, heavy armor, etc, and I've got decent stealth inherently from my apt and class.

  Code:
Alphaeus the Chopper (Gargoyle Earth Elementalist) Turns: 11779, Time: 00:54:47

Health: 59/59      AC: 21    Str: 22    XL:     10   Next: 4%
Magic:  18/18      EV: 10    Int: 23    God:    Cheibriados [***...]
Gold:   218        SH:  0    Dex: 17    Spells: 8/19 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis +   T - +4 battleaxe
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     + . .     Faith    .   M - +0 chain mail "Seunke" {MR+}
rPois    ∞         Spirit   .   t - +0 helmet
rElec    +         Reflect  .   F - +1 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       +....                  (no boots)
Stlth    ..........             (no amulet)
Regen    0.2/turn               D - +1 ring of protection
MPRegen  0.2/turn               A - ring of see invisible

@: very slow
A: negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +7
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Renounce Religion


You are on level 7 of the Dungeon.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is most pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 8 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 218 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 h - a +0 club
 n - the +1 rapier of Fee Simple {elec, rElec rC+ MR+ SInv}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   Occasionally, upon striking a foe, it will discharge some electrical energy
   and cause terrible harm.
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you see invisible.
 y - a glowing quarterstaff
 L - a +0 war axe
 T - a +4 battleaxe (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 102 stones (quivered)
Armour
 c - a +0 robe
 f - a +0 leather armour
 t - a +0 helmet (worn)
 F - a +1 cloak (worn)
 M - the +0 chain mail "Seunke" (worn) {MR+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Jewellery
 x - an uncursed ring of ice
 A - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 D - a +1 ring of protection (left hand)
Wands
 E - a wand of digging (?/24)
 R - a wand of digging (?/24)
Books
 e - a book of Geomancy   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sandblast                    Earth                         1
    b - Passwall                     Transmutation/Earth           2
    c - Stone Arrow                  Conjuration/Earth             3
    d - Petrify                      Transmutation/Earth           4
    e - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction   Earth                         5


   Skills:
 * Level 5.3 Fighting
 * Level 6.7 Axes
 * Level 5.1 Armour
 + Level 3.2 Dodging
 - Level 2.9 Stealth
 * Level 5.4 Spellcasting
 * Level 4.3 Conjurations
 + Level 0.7 Transmutations
 * Level 6.5 Earth Magic
 * Level 0.4 Invocations
 * Level 0.6 Evocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           #####.       4%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ####..       22%         3    ##.....
c - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ###.......   24%         2    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #####.....   78%         5    #####..


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
Your stone body is resilient. (AC +7)
You are immune to poison.
You resist negative energy. (rN+)
You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec)
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Friday, 22nd September 2017, 16:55

Re: Build Dilemmas

That rapier is trash. The only reason it might merit carrying around is as a source of SInv.

I'm glad to see you going into this build as an EE rather than a fighter, this makes way more sense.

Stop training 10 skills at once. You are wasting time. What is the one thing you want next? If you want petrify, train earth and tmut. If you want LRD, train earth. If you want axes, train axes but not magics. If you want a point of AC, train armor until you get it. If you want a point of EV, train dodge until you get it. Is the next thing you want a certain invocation at a usable %? Train that.

By not deciding, you are delaying your timings on everything, and gaining timings on nothing.

ID one of your digging wands.

For this message the author edgefigaro has received thanks: 3
duvessa, nago, VeryAngryFelid

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1193

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Friday, 22nd September 2017, 18:11

Re: Build Dilemmas

What edgefigaro said.

Slightly more generally, using manual skill training instead of automatic is the most important crawl strategy to learn after you've got the tactics (luring, when to flee, etc) down. And it should start at the beginning: on your first turn of a new character, turn on manual skill training (there's an init option to do this by default) and only train your killdudes skill (Earth for this character) for a few floors. (I do realize this character is past that stage...). You'll have to figure out what works from there: Fighting, Dodging, Armour, Shields, maybe a little Spellcasting to get a spell lot or two for a specific spell. Figuring out good manual skilling will improve your success a huge amount.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Saturday, 23rd September 2017, 05:39

Re: Build Dilemmas

This is still a fighter IMHO, 22% stone arrow is barely castable. I'd replace chain mail with ring mail or leather for now. I beleive it is optimal to have Dodging higher than Armor with Chei
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Saturday, 23rd September 2017, 17:53

Re: Build Dilemmas

We've had this discussion before, but edgefigaro's advice makes less sense than it sounds. It involves a lot of tedium, and gains you almost nothing. I don't want to spend sleepless nights deciding on what I need most next. Training 10 skills is perfectly fine, has practically no disadvantages that matter, and gets me to great builds, particularly with caster characters. Of course there is a fairly short phase in the early game where you need to get your killing skills up asap. Otherwise, there is no reasonable reason against broad skill training, as long as you only train skills you really need.
Maɟaŋ

Spider Stomper

Posts: 248

Joined: Monday, 4th September 2017, 10:53

Post Saturday, 23rd September 2017, 18:34

Re: Build Dilemmas

But thats wrong on possibly every count.

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duvessa
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Saturday, 23rd September 2017, 19:50

Re: Build Dilemmas

Please elaborate.
To state my point: Training just a few skills. or even just one, means breaking a sweat pushing dials and buttons like a sound tech at an Iron Maiden concert, and all for very incremental benefits, gaining you a measly stat point here and there a few hundred turns earlier than if you just grow several skills at once. Hardly the stuff that wins you a game. Let's face it, its a fad, and one that sucks the joy out of many a game.
Maɟaŋ

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Saturday, 23rd September 2017, 20:32

Re: Build Dilemmas

@majang, there are plays you can make if you are focused with your training that if you are less able to make if are less focused.

The Delayed Decision
By making a choice to train one thing, you are delaying the choice to train everything else. This delay has value.

Each choice you make is more informed than the previous one. You have seen more of the game, seen more items, and have a better sense of what is available to your character. You don't know what is going to be in the dungeon on D1. You have more information at L1. You have even more information at V1. In a 3rune game, by the time you hit U1, you have seen most of the game.

By training generally, you are committing to more aspects of your character design at an earlier point with less information, and this makes you less able to adapt to what the game gives you.

That character design you have in mind on D7 may or not be a great build for the rest of the game. You may not find the right spellbook. Alternatively, you may find a powerful weapon that you want to switch into, but you are halfway into training a large number of skills and you are too committed to unfinished projects to take advantage of it soon. You don't know what the floor god is going to give you, and by training many things, you are weakening your ability to adapt.

Open up aspects of your kit one at a time. This not only expands your kit faster, but also allows you to make more informed subsequent decisions and react more rapidly to new options.

You don't have to follow this idea all the way through to the extreme I gave in my example. At a certain point, you are kitted and strong and you don't really care about inefficiencies anymore. You can make a plan using known items that is functional to the end of the game.

You also don't need to be militant about it, I'll frequently train two or three skills at a time because I don't want to micromanage that much. Some combination of fighting, dodge, armor frequently all get trained together when I want defenses. All the above + a weapon focus is common for a fighter type approaching lair. Short Blades + stealth. Two magic schools focused + spellcasting unfocused when I'm getting a new spell. However, it is generally under a guise of putting thought into my decisions and adding one thing to my kit at a time.

Finally,
Specifically in this case, having 10 skills being trained at this point is indicative that this player isn't putting enough thought into skilling, and can easily improve his characters by improving his skilling decisions. This isn't reaching to eek out some last remaining drops of efficiency, he has a lot of room for improvement.

For this message the author edgefigaro has received thanks: 6
Airwolf, duvessa, Majang, nago, VeryAngryFelid, WingedEspeon
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 24th September 2017, 06:29

Re: Build Dilemmas

Thanks to edgefigaro for a very polite and very well thought out response! This is the best reasoning for narrow training I have read so far, and I accept it as a good motivation for going this way.
Certainly training 10 skills as early as the example above does is not something I would do either. Narrow skills training is more effective the closer you are to the beginning of the game, as reaching a certain break point in a stat may actually lead to a significant improvement. But for a mid-game Chei worshiper, less and less of the total character power comes from skills, and more from the amazing stats. Improving one skill a pip until reaching the next break point will have a minuscule effect on the total power of the character. Improving all your needed skills at the same time is then really a good option, for more than one reason. It not only reduces micromanagement, it also takes care of the need to figure out which skill to train is the most effective (now made easier by the display of skill cost). If you train a number of skills, the skills with the lowest cost will always grow the fastest, and the others let it catch up somewhat. So your skill training remains balanced.
Maɟaŋ

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 24th September 2017, 20:05

Re: Build Dilemmas

edgefigaro wins Tavern for at least since duvessa's epic rankings. Kudos!

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