CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS


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Mines Malingerer

Posts: 31

Joined: Monday, 25th April 2011, 19:21

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 01:10

CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

So, just for kicks, after my recent MuWi win (3-runes), I'm playing a completely different build: a Troll Transmuter of Nemelex! (Chardump:
Billygoat.txt
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Generally did pretty well for a while, but now I'm in the middle of the Lair, and things are getting tough. A big (7 head) hydra chased me back off Lair:5, and while I was able to take down a single death yak (stair-danced up from there), it sure wasn't easy. Half my summons are coming up hostile, I'm down to 3 large rocks and 2 confusion potions in hand, and have a mix of plain and ornate decks: 3 ornate summoning, 1 plain summoning (see above, though), 1 ornate destruction, and 3 plain escape. I haven't been timing my sacrifices, on account of between potions and decks I'm perpetually short of inventory slots.

Any ideas for how this character could survive the next few levels? Maybe time to get back to the main dungeon for a while, I'd matched this depth there before getting nervous about all the hill giants and such. I'm also finding that travelling to and from my stash is seriously non-trivial with this appetite!

ETA: Never mind, I tried going back to D:13, and got nailed by an unseen horror. Any ideas for how this sort of character might be made more survivable?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 07:25

Re: CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

It's a pity that Troll's main way to obtain extra defence while still casting - shields - are not a good option for a Transmuter. My first advice would therefore be to try a Gladiator or Monk first... but on a Transmuter, remember that the early levels of Orc are pretty easy and contain stacks of confusion potions... same goes for Hive:1 and poison.
Training Evocations more will help with hostile summons.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 31

Joined: Monday, 25th April 2011, 19:21

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 11:07

Re: CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

Yeah, I actually had a +2 large shield, and had to drop it because I couldn't cast when I needed it -- and there was no hope of getting my skills up in appropriate time. A regular shield might have done better, but it's still a heckuva penalty.

I've tried Troll Monks before, though in my early playing days. My biggest issues are still with the troll aptitudes, though yea, Transmuter and Nemelex compete a bit with the appetite.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 11:33

Re: CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

They're not a problem because of casting penalties, since those can be easily negated even in 0.9, but because Spider Form, Ice Form and Blade Hands all meld shields. In fact, only Statue Form (which is still moderately easy to get on a troll) and Necromutation (have fun training these skills and useless when three-runing anyway) work with them.
If you're interested in Trolls in general, I can recommend a Troll Venom Mage (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2328 as an example build) because you really don't want much more than 12 Poison Magic and 12 Conjurations skill, and can spam Poison Arrow to your heart's delight. A heavily armoured Troll Gladiator of Okawaru is probably one of the strongest melee trolls, and Troll Necromancers of Sif Muna have great mana reservoirs and versatile spells requiring only about 14 skill. Spells worth learning on that are Regeneration, Vampiric Draining, Dispel Undead, Agony, Borgnjor's Revivication.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 31

Joined: Monday, 25th April 2011, 19:21

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 11:51

Re: CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

How do you "easily negate" the casting penalties for a large shield? As for Troll necromancers... teaching a *Troll* Regeneration? Talk about carrying coals to Newcastle! Agony I get...

I'm starting to suspect surviving the Lair as a TrTr+Nemelex might be doable by seriously shorting Unarmed Combat in favor of Evocations and casting skills, but I'd still need some extra spellbooks. Kiku+Transmuter+Troll is an obvious non-starter (too much competition for corpses), but Makhleb, Vehumet, or even Sif might be doable.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Thursday, 1st September 2011, 11:56

Re: CIP: T rTr of Nemelex -- can this be salvaged? Nope, YAS

You negate them by gaining 15 shields skill, which is tolerable... and 9 is enough for a normal shield while you're on the way.
What is the problem with Regeneration? With the spell and natural regeneration the rate of healing is insane. It can't hurt, can it? Not like a Troll with have hunger problems and you can spare 3 MP at all times anyway.
Vehumet? Where do you plan to get the experience for Unarmed Combat, casting Transmutations and casting Conjurations (usually quite a heavy school)? That's pushing it. Kikubaaqudgha is fine since you won't need a lot of skill and usually doesn't use corpses (most necromancers cast the spells I named and not, in fact, the rather weak Animate Dead or whatever...) but you will not take much benefit from a pain weapon and can't cast the Necromonicon spells well either so I'd still be inclined not to choose him. But Sif Muna and Makhleb sound perfectly fine.

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