Adventures with bad berserkers

[Magipi]

I had a longish break from Crawl after the tournament (played very little in Dec-Jan-Feb). After I returned, I won a berserker with the new species, Ba... and then I figured: I have a lot of berserker wins, let's try to wrap up the rest.

Previously, I have won these berserkers (in chronological order):
Mi Ce HE Ha Mf Ko Ds Hu VS Vp HO Gr Na Te DD and now Ba.

The remaining dudes were these:

Group 1: Cannot berserk
Formicid, Ghoul, Mummy

Group2: Armour problems
Mild armour problems: Draconian
Medium armour problems: Troll, Ogre, Spriggan
Serious armour problems: Felid, Octopode

Group 3: Generally bad for the role
Deep Elf (joined later by Gnoll)

Of course, I did not think that these guys are all bad. I guessed that Tr will be good, Og and Dr almost as good, Deep Elf will be okay, I was unsure about Sp, and the rest will be awful. The one I was very wrong about was DE: a human with frail 3, bad aptitudes and bad stats is definitely not okay.

I did not streak them, of course, I'm not good enough for that. Also, I usually played 5-6 games simultaneously in various servers and versions, always playing the one I fancied.

Chapter 1: TrBe
I went unarmed of course. As I did not need weapon gifts, I was consciously trying to be more liberal than usual with god powers (which I should probably do in all other cases as well). I took a Swamp dragon armour in Swamp, paying the iron price. Later I went for a FDA. (Note: not "scales", I played 0.17, the best version).
Overall, this is a good combo, and I managed to do it in one try.
https://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/m ... 073920.txt

[Magipi]

Chapter 2: OgBe

This ogre was very lucky with insane artefact jewellery, also had enough enchant weapon scrolls to have 2 GSCs at +9, but was ridiculously short on enchant armour scrolls. Finally ended up with a +1 IceDA. Facepalm.

Also, the orbs of fire were very nice to me:

  Code:

  79087 | Zot:3    | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in molten scales (AC +1). [an orb of fire]
 81445 | Zot:5    | Gained mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [an orb of fire]

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 075652.txt

[Magipi]

Chapter 3: SpBe
Now we are getting closer to the real bad berserkers! I figured that meleeing with 2 AC and -40% HP is not cool, so let us try polearms and kite every dude. Also, let's play 0.15, where you can pray to sac corpses, as I can sac them all.
The first iteration that got going was extremely unlucky. Did not find a trident for a long time, had to spend a lot of time and resources early kiting with a shit spear, and as a result, I ran out of food and literally starved in orc. Wow. I lost several other ones in the early game to orc priests, orc wizards, bees and shit like that.
The real one was much luckier. An early branded trident plus troll leather, all this snowballed into a smooth run. In the end, he became a real beast: 32 AC, 37 EV, more than 200 HPs (counting the MPs too because of the spirit shield).

https://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/m ... 160301.txt

[Magipi]

Chapter 4: DEBe

This was the real stuff! It took me 44 deaths to finally win the 45th attempt.
One death was particularly awesome. I was playing trunk for riposte. I got the orb, but I was running very low on resources: I only had 2 teleports and 2 hastes left. This may be enough on a good day, but this was not a good day. Pan lord after pan lord, cutting me off the stairs, I ran out of resources and died. So no thanks, no riposte is enough compensation for playing a really hard version.

The final one wasn't a cakewalk either. The scariest moment:

  Code:

 33223 | Lab      | HP: 2/95 [poisoned by a minotaur]

And then again, a rough ascension:
107146 | Depths:3 | Noticed Niosi the pandemonium lord
107301 | Depths:1 | Noticed Asimp the pandemonium lord
107338 | Depths:1 | Noticed Iliulawk the pandemonium lord
107365 | D:15 | Killed Iliulawk the pandemonium lord
107480 | D:11 | Noticed Vymalus the pandemonium lord

In U:1, a was walking away form a Pan lord towards the exit, when a second one cut me off. I decided to bring him up, summon bros and kill him.
Finally I won in 107k turns. What?! 107k on a 3-runer?

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 092309.txt

Edit: I forgot: this was the game when I was going to get the silver rune, but before I got to V:5 I ran into a disto dude who abyssed me. I decided to dive to A:3 and if I find a rune vault before an exit, give it a try. The rune vault was the dire elephant one, probably the easiest, so finally I got the abyssal one and skipped V:5.

[Magipi]

Chapter 5: GhBe

Now comes the juicy part, the "cannot berserk" group. The ghoul is the strongest of the 3, but still not easy. In the early game, you are just a hilariously bad fighter, with worse weapon, worse armour, without shield and might potion. Even later, my instincts were all wrong, leading to bad spots: "I wait for the troll, then I'll berserk... oh wait".

Trog gave me a nice gift in Lair, and that was my main weapon:

  Code:

the +8 great mace of the Many Demons (weapon) {drain, rPois Str+5 Dex+2 Stlth+}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   

Like with the DEBe, I had a late Abyss trip (Trog's hand ran out and I missed it, but the demonologist did not), but this time the exit came before the rune, and I did not push my luck. I hate the Abyss, it is not easy, not even for 15-runers coming out of Pan.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 110539.txt

[Magipi]

Chapter 6: MuBe
MuBe is bad, no way to go around this. That fire vulnerability makes you hilariously fragile in the early game. I managed to counter that with an early rF plate, a lucky find. But the "cannot quaff" thing will haunt you through the game.

(I would like to add here that in trunk, mummies have absolutely no way to haste, and no way to heal. (Maybe just Gozag). This is ridiculous. The last thing this game needed is another significant mummy nerf.)

The battles vs the various orbs of fire were hilarious. Without might, with a demon whip, I just chipped off small chunks of their health. However, after a few turns they could do nothing but falter because of the antimagic effect. A clash of titans.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 184609.txt

[Magipi]

Chapter 7: DrBe

I messed up the GhBe report above. I somehow checked the wrong morgue, so the artefact great mace as well as the Abyss trip form Elf did not happen to the ghoul, it happened to this DrBe. The ghoul was an axe user who has no interesting stories that I can recall. Sorry.

My drac was pale (the steam-breathing type), which is probably the most useful one. I am unfortunately bad with draconisans, and I used the breath weapon far less than I should (I used it only 29 times).

The main problem was the lack of fire resistance, all I had was one ring of fire, which meant that all I could get was a single rF+, and even for that I had to lose all my other resists. I looked everywhere for a proper fire resist ring, but without success.

Trog gifted me the Undeadhunter unrand great mace. It has the long removed disrupt brand, it is even better against undead than a holy weapon. Crypt was fun with that.

In Zot I managed to kill Tiamat with great difficulties, and started using her dragonskin cloak. It was only much later that I realized that the cloak occasionally gave me the second pip of rF against orbs of fire.

I think DrBe is not bad. It is like finding some light dragon armour in the early game and using that. Not as good as using a plate, but you get quite some EV to compensate for the lost AC.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 110539.txt

[torrenera]

interesting reading, thanks for sharing ^^

[Airwolf]

I like DrBe because you don't have to train Armour or chase good body armour.

[Magipi]

I like DrBe because you don't have to train Armour or chase good body armour.

So your favourite is FeBe?

[Magipi]

Chapter 8: FoBe

Holy shit, formicids are really bad. I am really glad I managed to win this.

I started as a mace user, but Trog's first gift was a qstaff of crushing (still pre-lair, when my top weapon was just a plain morningstar). I started using that, then in Lair I found a lajatang of speed. I probably never used a speed weapon before, and now I know that it's good. Trog's gifts were appallingly useless afterwards, once he trolled me by gifting another laja of speed. It was already in Zot that I got an antimagic lajatang.

The whole run was very scary, especially when I made a slip: I forgot to use Trog's hand vs a lich, and he abyssed me. Wow, the Abyss is really rough if you cannot tele away.

I found boots of running in a Vaults shop, that was really nice.

There were 2 times when I almost died, the first one was in V:5 when to enemies just kept coming and coming, the second was in Zot:5: I was fighting a guardian, when an ancient lich came from behind, and a ghost moth also appeared, berserking the guardian. That was not cool.

The ascension was pretty smooth, I only met 1 panlord, and he appeared only when I was already standing on the upstair.

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 100912.txt

[Magipi]

I just noticed that in the end morgue I am wielding bread. Apparently it was my last action, and it baffles me, because I certainly did not want to do anything like that. Super weird.

[bel]

FeBe is fine. Piety gain is very fast because you don't get any gifts Also, there's not much choice in training (though some steatlth and evo helps).

[Airwolf]

I like DrBe because you don't have to train Armour or chase good body armour.

So your favourite is FeBe?

No, no. DrBe are fairly tanky.

[Magipi]

Chapter 9: GnBe

Gnolls are not good berserkers. Those -6 aptitudes were bad enough, and post-nerf they are -9. My highest skill was 16 Fighting (reached in Zot:5). So compared to a normal berserker, that is about 10 levels of Fighting less, which is probably equivalent to Frail 2, if I am not mistaken.

Trog was kind enough to gift me demon whips (mindelay at 12 skill, hooray). The first was elec (the best!), and later I got an antimagic one too, and I had enough scrolls to max them both.

I had no boots for a long-long time. After I've cleared D, Lair, Orc, the 2 Lair branches, V:1-4 and Depths and Elf:1-2, I still had no boots. Amazing. In V:5 I found a shiny pair, and it turned out to be running. Nice.

I was lucky to find the Hat of the alchemist unrand. Without rElec and rCorr, I would have died a dozen times in Zot. Zot is really unfriendly now, and to top that, came Zot:5: both entrances to the orb chamber were closed by permanent teleport traps. What the fuck.
#removetraps
So clearing was long and tedious, with a lot of shouting at the traps, then running around and picking up the teleported dudes. And when I finally decided to try it, of course I was teleported in the inner chamber, among a dozen baffled orb guardians. But I managed to not be surrounded, and teleported out.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 130111.txt

[tasonir]

You mentioned DE's as having "frail 3" and Spriggans as -40% HP, but I think you're off by one one both. DE's are just -20% health, and spriggans -30%, right? It's felids who are the only -40% life race, and strangely enough, they actually make pretty good berserkers. As already mentioned, the complete lack of gifts means you have incredibly high piety and you can summon bros for anything that's in over your head. You take very little damage on average due to your insane EV, but the issue becomes damage spikes. Two solid hits can kill you. Fortunately you're fast for escaping, and have multiple lives, so 2 solid hits doesn't end your run as long as it doesn't happen often.

All that said I do find they're easy in the early and mid game but they start to "level off" and become weaker around the end of a 3 game run, having some trouble in late depths/V:5/Zot. While your piety is high, if you're on a very packed floor like vaults:5, you can't keep summoning bros 10-20 times in one floor, so you do have to end up fighting most of it alone. Or at least without using multiple brothers per fight...

Statue form makes a much stronger felid, but it's tough to get there, and obviously not compatible with berserkers.

[Magipi]

Yes, you are absolutely right, the numbers got mixed up in my head.

As to how good FeBe is, we'll see. I have a promising one running. It seems to me that I should play it like a stabber.

[Sprucery]

As to how good FeBe is, we'll see. I have a promising one running. It seems to me that I should play it like a stabber.

With Fe stealth, that's what I would do (and have done, 5 runes+RIP in Dis). But IIRC mikee would disagree*, so there's that :)

*I seem to remember a discussion where he said that stealth would be the last skill to train on a FeBe.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

As to how good FeBe is, we'll see. I have a promising one running. It seems to me that I should play it like a stabber.

With Fe stealth, that's what I would do (and have done, 5 runes+RIP in Dis). But IIRC mikee would disagree*, so there's that

*I seem to remember a discussion where he said that stealth would be the last skill to train on a FeBe.

Felid stabber is my most succesful cat build, but Stealth on a Be cat has one really annoying drawback: as felids can't throw stones, IMO the 2nd best luring option is Corona or a similar cheap full range spell, which berserkers can't use.

[tasonir]

if you're throwing stones at monsters and you're a berserker, you probably aren't getting many stabs. I mean I suppose they could detect you, you go around corners, wait for them to resume random movement, walk up to them without being spotted, and then get a 'hasn't noticed you' stab, but that has to be one of the worst general stabbing strategies I can think of. You don't have confuse (the spell) or EH, although you could use confusion needles.

Most FeBe stabs would be either things that haven't woken up at all, or distraction stabs from your brothers in arms beating on enemies. My FeBe didn't use stabs much, ending the game with 9.5 stealth, and roughly 300 stabs with 246 being sleeping. Morgue.

The only difference between "full melee FeBe" and "stab FeBe" is a few levels of stealth, which is pretty cheap to get, but I'd agree to train that after you have fighting/dodging/unarmed up to comfortable levels.

Also, huge tip: Get a spirit shield amulet. They're amazing for FeBe, probably even better than faith.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

What I was trying to say was that while stealth is obviously great for a felid, especially with hexes, it might not be that great as a berserker, because no hexes and luring.

My biggest gripe with FeBe is the lack of hexes and Statue Form, both of which seem to be the cornerstones of a successful felid run for me.

[Siegurt]

What I was trying to say was that while stealth is obviously great for a felid, especially with hexes, it might not be that great as a berserker, because no hexes and luring.

My biggest gripe with FeBe is the lack of hexes and Statue Form, both of which seem to be the cornerstones of a successful felid run for me.

Berserk is roughly equal to statue form for most purposes (except of course when it runs out you better damn well be out of danger), you do have to make do with hex wands for hexing, but that's ok. BiA and Trog's Hand probably make up for a lot of the lack of spellcasting generally.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Berserk is roughly equal to statue form for most purposes (except of course when it runs out you better damn well be out of danger), you do have to make do with hex wands for hexing, but that's ok. BiA and Trog's Hand probably make up for a lot of the lack of spellcasting generally.

It's a bit apples-to-oranges comparison, because berserk is guaranteed as a Be, and Statue Form is a lucky drop, but in my experience if one finds Statue Form early enough to use it in rune branches, it's a lot more reliable than zerking, and always worth going for if not Be-ing.

First of all, AC bonus of over 20 points makes the incoming damage a lot less spiky. Then there's the poison immunity: in 3/4 of the S-branches, it's a major defensive buff for a low-HP character. And maybe I'm just a bad berserker, or a particularly unlucky one, but my Be felids tend to lose lives when zerking runs out.

IMO: Statuecat is roughly better.

[VeryAngryFelid]

FeBe must use BiA much more often than any other Be does because 1) often it is too dangerous to berserk due to low base HP and inability to rest fight after berserking 2) you don't need to save piety for gifts or Trog's hand (MR+ is not that important because of intrinsic MR and stealthiness, regeneration is not that important because you can retreat freely and it's too dangerous to stay in fight when severely wounded because many things can one-shot you basically ignoring your regeneration)

[duvessa]

Berserk is roughly equal to statue form for most purposes (except of course when it runs out you better damn well be out of danger)

Sure, they both provide an HP bonus, but don't you think berserk giving you haste and might is relevant?

[Siegurt]

Berserk is roughly equal to statue form for most purposes (except of course when it runs out you better damn well be out of danger)

Sure, they both provide an HP bonus, but don't you think berserk giving you haste and might is relevant?

Yes and stat form gives you a bunch of ac (and slow+50% damage which is roughly neutral)

They are not "the same" they are "roughly equivalent" in that they make the combat you are in easier melee wise, by around the same margin.

Taking half as much damage per attack is not exactly the same as, but is similar to, killing an enemy twice as fast so they get half the attacks.

Berserk is obviously more risky (both in that it doesn't reduce the spikyness of combat as much and because of the post serk slow) but they fill similar roles and are similarly useful.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

And as a felid, statform + Oka >> zerking because +5 UC/Dodging/Stealth and double attack speed, cuz that's how I like 'em apples (vs. oranges).

[Siegurt]

And as a felid, statform + Oka >> zerking because +5 UC/Dodging/Stealth and double attack speed, cuz that's how I like 'em apples (vs. oranges).

Yes, three different bonuses stacked together is better than one....

[mattlistener]

And as a felid, statform + Oka >> zerking because +5 UC/Dodging/Stealth and double attack speed, cuz that's how I like 'em apples (vs. oranges).

Yes, three different bonuses stacked together is better than one....

A better comparison would be statform + Hero/Fin vs. nostatform + Berz/BiA.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

And as a felid, statform + Oka >> zerking because +5 UC/Dodging/Stealth and double attack speed, cuz that's how I like 'em apples (vs. oranges).

Yes, three different bonuses stacked together is better than one....

Statform vs. berserking might be comparing apples to oranges, but if you manage to find statform with an Oka cat, comparing all of statform/Heroism/Finesse to zerking (+ bros) isn't as unfair as it might seem because you get to use those abilities a lot. At least in my current game I have felt I could use the god abilities as often as I've needed them and Heroism probably a bit more.

  Code:

       Statue Form       |       |       |       |       |    15 |    66 |     1 ||    82
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |    18 |    35 |    55 |    74 |     1 ||   183
       Finesse           |       |       |       |     1 |    18 |    31 |     1 ||    51

[Magipi]

Chapter 10: OpBe

The last time I played octopode it was a nightmare, I splatted 50+ times before winning one. This run was absolutely dreamlike, winning it at the first try.

I found a lot of stealth rings, became "uncannily stealthy" quite soon, and I stabbed a lot (323 stabs at sleeping targets). No protection rings in the whole game, but I got the large bone plates mutation (+2AC, +2 Sh), resulting in a grand total of 5 AC. Combined with 30+ EV, however, my defences felt quite good. I was very much afraid of orbs of fire, but with might, an antimagic demon whip and rF++ they were quite manageable.

My main weapon was another Trog gift, the best demon whip I've ever seen:

  Code:

a - the +12 demon whip of Trog (weapon) {flame, rN+ Dex+2}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 3 of the Orcish Mines)   

Also, this was probably the first run that I used a large shield, an artefact one that gave me my second pip of rF.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 160958.txt

Now there's only one berserker left, FeBe!

[tasonir]

Very nice whip, but wow, those were some really bad rings. I know you were using the stealth so maybe I shouldn't count the two plain stealth rings against you, but you only had one randart ring and it was just rPois and stealth...Did no other usable randart rings generate? And then wearing a ring of see invisible and magical power...I know guardian shield turns that into health, but I'd probably have taken just about anything over those 4 rings. I suppose you did win regardless, so congrats

[Magipi]

I'm wearing all the useful rings I've found.

Just look at these gems that I found in the game:

  Code:

the ring of Kiugebro {-Tele rN+ EV+1 Str+2 SInv}
(You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)

  Code:

the cursed ring of Othaufod {rF+ AC-2}
(You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)

[Phaedo]

Wow, what did you do to the RNG and why is it mad at you?

[Magipi]

I am necroing this thread because I DID IT!

Recently I've been clearing up my unfinished games on all servers, all versions, there are at least a dozen and few of them are old. This FeBe was one of those, I started it a year and 2 days ago. As it was, it had 2 runes, Vaults 1-4, Depths and Elf cleared, ready for the 3rd rune, with 2 lives (and 2 deaths).

Uncharacteristically I decided to try for the Abyss rune - I hate the Abyss and I was scared, but I was even more scared of TRJ and even more scared of V:5. The abyss run was super fast, the downhatch from A:2 dropped me in a rune chamber and I stole it. Then came Zot, it was pretty hard, I died to an elec golem once (no rElec source). I ran out of heal wounds too.

It turned out that even orbs die fast against berserk with UC 27, fangs & claws. They were still really scary though.

The orbrun was pretty eventless, I saw an executioner on Z:5 (it turned out that a hasted cat is fast enough to not be caught), then 2 panlords on the run but it was easy to leave them behind.

Delarado spectated the end of the run, thanks!

https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/m ... 125640.txt

My next project is to try to win all gnolls, I have only En and Cj remaining.

[Rast]

I was wondering why you had gnolls in your list of bad berserkers, but then I saw you were playing the old trunk version of gnoll.

In the released version, there isn't any such thing as a bad gnoll. You've probably figured that out by now.

[Magipi]

A GnBe is pretty frustrating. You get all those book with great spells you could use for free but you can't.

Compared to a HuBe, you have much lower skills. (When going for the first rune, a HuBe would probably have 20 weapon skill, a GnBe will have 10.) This means lower AC, lower EV, less HP, also it is advisable to use a one-hander with shield. If all Trog gifts are great maces and great swords, while the best one-hander is some scimitar, then the truth hurts.

To be fair, GnBe have some advantages too (compared to HuBe):
1. Even better early game (due to high skills)
2. Fangs
3. The ability to freely switch weapon types (if Trog or the dungeon trolls you).

[VortexTurtle]

That was a nice read. Thank you!

Will you try anything similar to this "greater-berserker" run?

[Magipi]

I'm doing gnolls right now.

Mind you, this was not a streak, I died a hundred times. But Tedronai won all the berserkers in one streak, and when he ran out, he continued with random combos.

And if you want to read something even more brutal, ZoFy is streaking felids. Mind-blowing. Tavern thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20295

[Rast]

To be fair, GnBe have some advantages too (compared to HuBe):
1. Even better early game (due to high skills)
2. Fangs
3. The ability to freely switch weapon types (if Trog or the dungeon trolls you).

4. Throwing
5. Evocations

[nago]

Because training a grand total of 5 skills is impossible to other races.