YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:13

YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1 (tiles) character file.

12135 Tamriel the Summoner (level 11, -8/54 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Summoner on Sept 21, 2016.
             Was an Elder of Vehumet.
             Mangled by an orc warrior
             ... wielding a +0 glaive
             ... led by an orc warlord
              (11 damage)
             ... on level 9 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 01:15:58 (16448 turns).

Tamriel the Summoner (Deep Elf Summoner)           Turns: 16448, Time: 01:15:58

Health: -8/54      AC: 11    Str:  5    XL:     11   Next: 58%
Magic:  29/29      EV: 15    Int: 24    God:    Vehumet [****..]
Gold:   622        SH:  3    Dex: 15    Spells: 6 memorised, 10 levels left

rFire  . . .      SeeInvis .    r - staff of wizardry
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    Q - +1 leather armour {rPois}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    u - +0 helmet
rElec  .          Dismiss  .    H - +2 cloak
rCorr  .          Reflect  +    P - +2 pair of gloves
SustAt .          Harm     .    (no boots)
MR     +....                    K - +3 amulet of reflection
Stlth  ++++......               w - ring of poison resistance
                                A - ring of stealth

@: about to teleport, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion


You were on level 9 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was greatly pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and saw 14 of its levels.

You collected 780 gold pieces.
You spent 158 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 h - a +2 mace of holy wrath
Missiles
 y - 4 throwing nets (quivered)
Armour
 a - a +0 robe
 u - a +0 helmet (worn)
 H - a +2 cloak (worn)
 P - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
 Q - a +1 leather armour of poison resistance (worn)
Magical Staves
 r - an uncursed staff of wizardry (weapon)
 B - an uncursed staff of energy
Jewellery
 n - a +2 ring of strength
 w - a ring of poison resistance (right hand)
 A - a ring of stealth (left hand)
 I - the ring of the Eleven Wonders {*Confuse +Fly rF+ Str-2 Slay+5}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+5).
   It protects you from fire.
   It lets you fly.
   It may confuse you when you take damage.
 K - a +3 amulet of reflection (around neck)
 U - an uncursed ring of ice
Wands
 p - a wand of polymorph (2/24)
 v - a wand of flame (25/48)
 x - a wand of random effects (18/48)
 F - a wand of slowing (17/48)
 G - a wand of paralysis (15/24)
 O - a wand of enslavement (14/24)
 R - a wand of random effects (9/48)
Scrolls
 d - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 i - a scroll of amnesia
 q - 5 scrolls of teleportation
 D - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon
 J - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
Potions
 e - a potion of mutation
 f - 2 potions of brilliance
 j - 2 potions of lignification
 k - a potion of agility
 t - a potion of cure mutation {unknown}
 z - 7 potions of curing
 C - a potion of degeneration {unknown}
 E - 2 potions of flight
 M - a potion of berserk rage {unknown}
 S - a potion of magic {unknown}
Books
 b - a book of Callings   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Summon Small Mammal          Summoning                     1
    b - Call Imp                     Summoning                     2
    c - Call Canine Familiar         Summoning                     3
    d - Summon Guardian Golem        Hexes/Summoning               3
    e - Summon Lightning Spire       Summoning/Air                 4
    f - Summon Ice Beast             Ice/Summoning                 4
 l - a book of the Tempests   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Static Discharge             Conjuration/Air               3
    b - Lightning Bolt               Conjuration/Air               5
    c - Fireball                     Conjuration/Fire              5
    d - Tornado                      Air                           9
    e - Shatter                      Earth                         9
 s - a Grand Grimoire   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Monstrous Menagerie          Summoning                     7
    b - Summon Greater Demon         Summoning                     7
    c - Malign Gateway               Summoning/Translocation       7
    d - Summon Horrible Things       Summoning                     8
 T - a Fen Folio   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Corpse Rot                   Necromancy                    2
    b - Stone Arrow                  Conjuration/Earth             3
    c - Leda's Liquefaction          Hexes/Earth                   4
    d - Summon Forest                Summoning/Translocation       5
    e - Hydra Form                   Transmutation                 6
    f - Summon Hydra                 Summoning                     7
Miscellaneous
 N - a fan of gales
Comestibles
 c - 5 bread rations
 g - 5 meat rations
 m - 19 fruits
 o - a beef jerky
 V - a slice of pizza
 X - a chunk of flesh


   Skills:
 - Level 7,7 Dodging
 - Level 5,7 Stealth
 + Level 12,0 Spellcasting
 - Level 7,3 Conjurations
 + Level 12,2 Summonings
 - Level 5,3 Ice Magic
 - Level 6,0 Air Magic
 - Level 2,1 Evocations


You had 10 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Call Canine Familiar  Summ           ######..     1%          3    None
b - Summon Lightning Spi  Summ/Air       ######..     1%          4    None
c - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ######..     1%          4    None
d - Monstrous Menagerie   Summ           ######....   19%         7    ######.
e - Freeze                Ice            ####         1%          1    None
f - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       #####.....   1%          5    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (12/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (0/8) D:11
    Orc (1/2) D:9         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Pakellas
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:4 [   D:10 *

Message History

The troll closely misses you. The troll claws you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The troll claws you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You climb upwards. Welcome back to the Dungeon!
There is a staircase to the Orcish Mines here.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel much better. The orc warrior closely misses you. x2
The orc warlord hits you with a war axe of electrocution!
You are electrocuted!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The troll barely misses you. The troll claws you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The troll barely misses you.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
As you read the scroll of teleportation, it crumbles to dust.
You feel strangely unstable. The orc warrior barely misses you. The orc warrior hits you with a glaive!
You die...

..#......#####......#########.#.#    #.##.#.
..#.................####    #.#.#    #.##.#.
..#....####.####.......#    #.#.#    #.##.#.
..#....##.....##....##.#    #.#.#    #.##.#.
..#....#.......#....##.######.#.######.##.#.
..#....#.......#.#####........#.##..........
####......._.....#####.##.#####.###.##....#.
   #...#.......#....................#.......
####...#.......#.#####.##.......##..###...#.
.......##.....##.#  #...'.......##..# #.....
.......####.####.#  #...#.......##..# #.....
.....#...........# ##.o.#######.##..###...##
.....######..##### #.T@o#     #.##..#.....#
.....#    #..#     #..o[#     #..#..#.#.#.##
.....######..#     #...##    ###.#..#.......
.....'.......#     ##..#     #.._...#.#.....
.....######.##     ##..#     #.#.#..#...#...
.....#    #.#      #...#     #...#..#...####
###########.########..###    ##.##..........
............>...........#     #[##.##.#.####
###########.#########.###     #...........#
          #.#       #.#       ####.##.###.##
          #.#       #.############.##.# #...
          #.#       #..............##.# ####
          #.#       #.###############.#


You could see an orc warlord, a troll and 2 orc warriors.


I think that it would have been impossible to enter the mines succesfully with a DeSu. The entrance was way too spammed with orcs... Any thoughts? Maybe with some scrolls of blinking, luring them to the stairs then going up again and blinking away.

Thanks

Dungeon Master

Posts: 625

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:22

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

drink brilliance, then cast monstrous menagerie

also why are you using vehumet on a summoner? he doesn't give anything for summons and conjurations mix very poorly with summons (since they'll get in the way of your line of fire...)

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:23

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

You're really supposed to do Lair first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:35

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

0 fighting, not a surprise the character died. Summoners are really afraid of entering a new level, that's where they have highest chance to die.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:37

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

CanOfWorms wrote:drink brilliance, then cast monstrous menagerie

also why are you using vehumet on a summoner? he doesn't give anything for summons and conjurations mix very poorly with summons (since they'll get in the way of your line of fire...)


Well, I gain MP when I kill. I also think some conjurations are useful even for a summoner, for example if a monster reaches melee range with you and you need to kill him quickly. Also killing weak monsters myself gives me more XP than killing them through summons. Last but not least, Vehumet starts giving me spells much quicker than Sif Muna.

As to the menagerie, that would not prevent the orcs from hitting me. Once they get in melee range I have one or two turns to kill them or I die

Sar wrote:You're really supposed to do Lair first.


Maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem since I still have to enter Orc some day.

0 fighting, not a surprise the character died. Summoners are really afraid of entering a new level, that's where they have highest chance to die.


Do you suggest training some fighting?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:40

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

nacional100 wrote:Do you suggest training some fighting?


Absolutely. Fighting gives HP to all characters. Also train more dodging, you have to survive ranged attacks while watching your summons kill everything. Definitely don't get Conjurations with summons, at least not that early. Both methods use MP and summoning is more MP-efficient of the two. Get defenses and train some weapon to have a way to kill monsters at 0 MP.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 21st September 2016, 23:50

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

nacional100 wrote:Maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem since I still have to enter Orc some day.

A post-Lair character will likely have better defense and offense because Lair has quite a bit of XP bags. That's how RPGs work, no? You punch XP bags and your character becomes better at punching hardier bags that also give more XP.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 4
Godmorgon, nago, vergil, VeryAngryFelid

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 00:01

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

nacional100 wrote:Well, I gain MP when I kill. I also think some conjurations are useful even for a summoner, for example if a monster reaches melee range with you and you need to kill him quickly.

Sif's MP recovery is as good, if not better and you get it on demand. If a monster gets in melee range summon something and walk around the summon in a way that lets it attack the monster, without letting the monster attack you.

Edit: Also, currently allies don't get credited for MP on kills so you have to avoid using your main source of damage to get MP back!!!

nacional100 wrote:Also killing weak monsters myself gives me more XP than killing them through summons. Last but not least, Vehumet starts giving me spells much quicker than Sif Muna.

The first point doesn't actually matter, and you don't need earlier spells because you can get your starting book online. Vehumet doesn't actually gift useful spells earlier, given that the first spell gifts are weak level 1 spells and the later spell gifts require experience. Sif on the other hand will give you stuff that requires less XP to get usable!!! (also you get miscast protection, which lets you use higher level spells with less risk)

nacional100 wrote:As to the menagerie, that would not prevent the orcs from hitting me. Once they get in melee range I have one or two turns to kill them or I die

The menagerie summons would likely shred whatever's attacking you though (also you can run away using them as blockers)

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nago

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 00:08

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

Ok, useful suggestions so far.

However, once the stairs are surrounded, is there a way to get down? I believe that time doesn't advance on other floors, so monsters will not walk away. On the first turn I was almost hit to dead , then went up the stairs again and could escape.

Thanks

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 00:13

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

If you think you're going to take a lot of damage when you go down, drink some potions that increase your survivability (haste, invisibility, agility, resistance, etc.) or read a teleport before going down so that ideally it immediately goes off when you arrive and you're hopefully in a less bad position. In the worst case read a blink scroll to position yourself in a better location. You can also use a scroll of fear to disperse a mob that surrounds you for a few turns.

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nago

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Post Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 00:38

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

nacional100 wrote:Ok, useful suggestions so far.

However, once the stairs are surrounded, is there a way to get down? I believe that time doesn't advance on other floors, so monsters will not walk away. On the first turn I was almost hit to dead , then went up the stairs again and could escape.

Thanks


Monsters will wander away.

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Post Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 09:49

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

nacional100 wrote:I also think some conjurations are useful even for a summoner, for example if a monster reaches melee range with you and you need to kill him quickly.

You are on an EXP budget in this game. By putting EXP into conjurations, you are not putting EXP into more important skills. Your answer to "a monster has reached melee range" should be something like (non-exhaustive list):
- "I walk into a corridor and summon something then swap places with it"
- "I walk around my lightning spire while it gets free shots on whatever's chasing me at melee range"
- "I use a consumable"

If you had Sif Muna instead of Vehumet, you could have been spamming Monstrous Menagerie with no fear of miscast effects. That's a very significant amount of EXP you 'save' to get a lategame spell 'online'.

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Cimanyd, CypherZel, nago, Sar, vergil

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 07:04

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

Skilling was terrible so you should sort that out first before your tactics. Starting from the general rule of thumb "train kill dudes, and when you can kill dudes then train defences. When you realise you can't kill dudes as we'll train kill dudes" that is basically the cycle. All you did was train kill dudes. So another thing that is special to casters about skilling is a few more techniques that good players use, first off it is usually a waste to train more then one elemental school at a time, you are basically spreading XP you can be spending on better things thin. Although I will say maybe this is different for Summoners since I have never tried playing one, what I'm talking about is conjuration based casters ( I would assume it would be a better strategy to have Melee at min delay and medium to light armour for a summoner but idk I specialise in trog dudes). As a conjuration based caster conjurations will be your back bone skill and your element of choice will be the secondary skill, and you will be dipping and dabbing into utility schools. So say you want to get a spell online, what I and other people do is turn all skills off and look at the schools that that spell is tied to, say it was dazzling spray which needs conjurations and hexes, and you have 7 in conjurations and 0 in hexes with all 0 apt. It would make more sense to only turn on hexes because that's the cheapest, most efficient an fastest way to get more spell power and bring down the miscast chance. Another thing, generally only train spell casting for spell levels, it does not give you much spell power so it should actually be lower then you two main spell schools. The exception to this is if you want to get a spell online and it's extremely cheep to train spell casting to do so, or you need mana. A lot of the stuff I just said is just really optimising spell training. I train one spell at a time, I have few wins, there's amazing players out there who train one spell at a time with huge streaks, there are also players way better then me who train multiple skills at a time with good reasons for it but imo casters need this type of skilling. Oh yea side note the more schools a spell is tied to the better returns you get fell training spell casting. Once you get all of this down basically all you need to do is work on your tactics.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 12:25

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

Training spellcasting for MP is ok for summoner.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 13:45

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Training spellcasting for MP is ok for summoner.


I wouldn't call that build a summoner lol

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 13:48

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

For Conjurer MP is even more important than for summoner. The character has 0 fighting, it is closer to pure summoner than to anything else. Actually I played a similar character (autotraining and no means of damage except spells and autotraining barely trained Fighting in that version) though I used Kiku instead of summons.

Edit.
  Code:
+ Level 1.1 Fighting

             Began as a Spriggan Venom Mage on May 19, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Kikubaaqudgha.
             Slain by Luaposk the pandemonium lord (19 damage)
             ... on Level 3 of the Realm of Zot on June 7, 2014.
             The game lasted 11:13:47 (75457 turns).
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

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Joined: Friday, 24th June 2016, 14:09

Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 15:26

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

VeryAngryFelid wrote:For Conjurer MP is even more important than for summoner. The character has 0 fighting, it is closer to pure summoner than to anything else. Actually I played a similar character (autotraining and no means of damage except spells and autotraining barely trained Fighting in that version) though I used Kiku instead of summons.

Edit.
  Code:
+ Level 1.1 Fighting

             Began as a Spriggan Venom Mage on May 19, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Kikubaaqudgha.
             Slain by Luaposk the pandemonium lord (19 damage)
             ... on Level 3 of the Realm of Zot on June 7, 2014.
             The game lasted 11:13:47 (75457 turns).


I'm not saying MP doesn't matter but during the period when skilling doe matter killing power matters more then how many times you can cast a spell which is why mist people don't train spell casting so high. Also in response to that dump you posted, this player isn't as good as you so comparing a challenge build to this players actual build that he wanted to probably win a 15 tune with is not helpful

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 15:32

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

I believe MP is the most important thing for early and midgame summoner as long as you have enough fighting/dodging. It is not rare to die because you have no MP left, this is probably even more true in trunk where Sif Muna's channeling was nerfed.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 16:10

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I believe MP is the most important thing for early and midgame summoner as long as you have enough fighting/dodging. It is not rare to die because you have no MP left, this is probably even more true in trunk where Sif Muna's channeling was nerfed.

Regarding the earlygame, old Sif's channeling would have given you a slow trickle of MP as you haven't had breathing room for Invo training. That's enough to supply reinforcements for attrition but not set up your army from scratch. New Sif lets you supply the same rate of reinforcements while at 0 MP for the same 1* piety.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 16:59

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

New Sif spends piety for that as far as I know.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 19:38

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

CypherZel wrote:I'm not saying MP doesn't matter but during the period when skilling doe matter killing power matters more then how many times you can cast a spell

the killing power of casters is directly correlated with the amount of times they can cast a spell

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2016, 20:04

Re: YASD: Mobbed in Orc entrance

VeryAngryFelid wrote:New Sif spends piety for that as far as I know.

To my understanding, her 1* power costs nothing. Certainly I haven't ever noticed it when I spammed it on a few Sif characters I rolled on trunk. Her 3* channel-while-you-walk does cost piety but it's less than Forget Spell. Could be a consequence of the characters I ran (Sif always ensured I had some summons as backup) but I've rarely had to rely on that channel because her 1* reloads so fast. Not "I'm casting big conjurations every single turn" fast, but very serviceable for "I need to replenish summon casualties" or "I want to blink-kite forever while my summons do their work".

Heck, one of those trunk Sif characters was hellbent and went down to D:9 to worship her. Still alive post-Lair thanks to the mileage from 1* power.

For this message the author Psieye has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

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