CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay


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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 11:56

CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

Dump: http://pastebin.com/raw/Lif0ePcq

Lately I've been playing felids. HP-40% has proved to be an interesting challenge: one never quite gets to a point where fights become trivial, because one good hit puts a felid to a critical HP range for a long while. For the people who complain that Crawl is too easy, play more Felids. Cutting the amount of HP all across the board would be a simple solution for making the game harder and having to maintain good tactics longer.

Lousy HP makes transmuting a bit more interesting for felids. Most other transmuting species are pretty much set with Blade Hands, but felids can really use the HP+20% from Ice Form. Although with BH felids retain their one great advantage, speed, which is critical when just one big hit means the fight is over and it's time to GTFO.

My first ever felid went with Dith because of an early altar, but ran into a wall in the Lair runes. Okawaru is just too good to pass: +5 in UC and Dodging is ridiculously powerful at just * piety, and Finesse makes it possible to melee even hydras in Ice Form, something that is just too dangerous without it. Oka is just too good compared to everything else.

Nerf Oka: at least make Finesse give contamination like Haste, or make the attack speed slower, like Haste. Heroism with just +3 bonuses would still be good, but not ridiculously so.

This char found a +6 slaying ring in D:1 which is the main reason that I have 0 deaths so far. Orc gave me the Ring of Shadows, which might be the perfect item for Shoals; even with stronger characters I tend to postpone A:4 even after vaults, and sometimes even after depths, but with liberal use of invisibility I remained at good health throughout.

I've played a lot of octopodes who become pretty much invincible after Statue Form, but with felids' aptitudes, +1 Trmt, -1 Erth, it's actually takes just as much XP to get Dragon Form online. And with HP+50% compared to HP+30%, Slow, and no shield, Dragon is the superior form on felids.

I've yet to clear Depths. As an example why transmuters of Oka are so good, I ran an fsim vs a juggernaut in Dragon Form, Heroism, Finesse, !might, and, !agility with a character identical to the one I'm running:

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     69.6 |    200 |      80% |  55.8 |    28  |  3.53 |    199.2
Defending:     46.5 |    109 |      39% |  18.6 |    66  |  1.52 |     28.1
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 13:12

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

All true. I won with a FeCj of Ash recently that moved towards dragon form in late depths / vaults 5 because of lack of any conjurations capable of taking down Orbs of Fire. Hasted dragon form absolutely rocked for this (and for taking just about everything else in Zot as well) even though my base strength was crap (just 4!). The EV malus was counteracted by Felid dodging, and the rC- was counteracted by Felids' natural rC+, so all in all it was the perfect felid strategy. If I'd gone for a transmuter background from the start it would have been even better (though the early game would have been a nightmare)

Not tried Oka on a Felid - hadn't thought about it because of uselessness of gifts, but finesse + dragon form sounds amazing.

Does blade hands still kill Felid stealth? (the idea being that you clatter around on blade paws, making lots of noise)
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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 14:50

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

Zargon wrote:All true. I won with a FeCj of Ash recently that moved towards dragon form in late depths / vaults 5 because of lack of any conjurations capable of taking down Orbs of Fire. Hasted dragon form absolutely rocked for this (and for taking just about everything else in Zot as well) even though my base strength was crap (just 4!). The EV malus was counteracted by Felid dodging, and the rC- was counteracted by Felids' natural rC+, so all in all it was the perfect felid strategy. If I'd gone for a transmuter background from the start it would have been even better (though the early game would have been a nightmare)

Incidentally, my latest win was a SpCj of Dith, and I imagine it plays a lot like a felid one because both have low HP and high speed. The speed allows for playing as much a pure conjurer than anything, one can always run upstairs to regain mana. I think I might have lost more spriggans than any other species, partially because I pretty much started Crawl by playing SpEns; a conjurer background is way better than the enchanter one, because they don't run into the same wall around the Lair runes time than stabbers do.

Zargon wrote:Not tried Oka on a Felid - hadn't thought about it because of uselessness of gifts, but finesse + dragon form sounds amazing.

Does blade hands still kill Felid stealth? (the idea being that you clatter around on blade paws, making lots of noise)

I think it speaks volumes of Oka's strength that even on a race who don't get the weapon and armour gifts she's still easily the default to go to. As Unarmed Combat base damage is 3+UC skill, and UC only maxes out at 27, the +5 bonus from Heroism is even better for monks and transmuters than for weapon-users. Finesse deals double damage, which usually means that there are few fights that one can't take.

I thought about taking Ash with a FeTm, can't remember for sure if it was my current char, but doesn't the lack of armour make a felid lose the dodging and stealth bonuses? If it does, it only leaves one with the spellcasting bonuses which still works for a conjurer, but would make it a bad choice for melee kitties. Monster detection still gives good stabbing opportunities though, but is a less stellar ability without a dagger.

Blade Hands do hinder the stealth aspect a bit, but when it's reliably castable, sleep stabs aren't really an issue anymore. They're a great bonus, but BH deals enough damage to kill most monsters in a 1-on-1 fight anyway, and Heroism/Finesse gives one the extra boost when required.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 15:19

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:HP-40% has proved to be an interesting challenge:


I think you and I have different definitions of interesting

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 15:40

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ZipZipskins wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:HP-40% has proved to be an interesting challenge:

I think you and I have different definitions of interesting

Apparently we do. Low HP forces one to adhere to good tactics, meaning fighting monsters 1-on-1 for a long stretch of the game. I don't claim that it makes the game more fun, it actually takes a lot more effort; it's like having to retain the tactics one uses in the first few levels of the game throughout the game.

I actually memorized Magic Dart just to be able to lure monsters to a safer position, because felids can't throw rocks. It's something I've never done with an another character.

One could argue that this doesn't make the game more interesting, just more tedious, but it certainly makes the game more dangerous. And I've read a lot of arguments about Crawl being too easy lately, and I can't think of a better way of making the game harder than reducing the amount of HP one has. Fighting is usually the 2nd skill I max out on all my characters, because the main reason one tends to die in Crawl is from lack the of HP.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 17:03

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:I thought about taking Ash with a FeTm, can't remember for sure if it was my current char, but doesn't the lack of armour make a felid lose the dodging and stealth bonuses? If it does, it only leaves one with the spellcasting bonuses which still works for a conjurer, but would make it a bad choice for melee kitties. Monster detection still gives good stabbing opportunities though, but is a less stellar ability without a dagger.

You do lose the dodging and stealth bonuses, but this is more than made up for felid aptitudes in these areas (+3 and +4). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Felids now have innate dagger-claws (check by pressing "A"). Spell school bonuses are great as they allowed you to branch into different schools a fair bit early on whilst still being able to spend xp on dodging, stealth, UC, fighting and spellcasting. As a felid, I found I needed quite a few spell schools (ice / charms for OA and condensation shield; later transmutations / earth for passwall, petrify, statue form and stone skin; charms / air for repel / deflect missiles; conjurations for general offence; hexes for stabs). The good thing about ash was that none of this xp was wasted - when I decided what end level spells I wanted, I could re-invest the xp back into the relevant schools. Plus binding management was no problem - you only have three equipment slots, which are all jewellery - related, and you only ever produce curse jewellery scrolls when converting remove curse scrolls, allowing you to bind / unbind frequently. Like you say, Ash is fantastic for a stabber build, especially a felid, as they need all the fore-warning they can get!

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Blade Hands do hinder the stealth aspect a bit, but when it's reliably castable, sleep stabs aren't really an issue anymore. They're a great bonus, but BH deals enough damage to kill most monsters in a 1-on-1 fight anyway, and Heroism/Finesse gives one the extra boost when required.

Sounds cool. I'll go for a FeTm next time I want a challenge. Just 3 wins from greatplayer status now, so I'll do those first.
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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 17:22

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

Thank you for the detailed reply, it's exactly how I wish a reply to my post would have gone.

So Ash might be good for a conjurer, but for melee dudes, like a transmuter, it's better to have a boost in melee-killing abilities. I love Ash, many of my octopode wins went with her, but with a character who very much depends on the occasional boost in killing power that Oka provides, there's really no comparison.

This is why I posted the thread about Oka being all too powerful.

When you punch dudes dead melee power is very important. Heroism and Finesse are the abilities that gives one the ability to do that; my Dith dude learned Evocations to 12. Not a stellar amount, but enough to kill, or at least put most monsters on a disadvantage from distance.

This char had none of those.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 22:27

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:I don't claim that it makes the game more fun, it actually takes a lot more effort...

...One could argue that this doesn't make the game more interesting, just more tedious


Yes, one certainly could, and one would

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 01:21

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

Zargon wrote:...Dragon form absolutely rocked for this [...] The EV malus was counteracted by Felid dodging, and the rC- was counteracted by Felids' natural rC+


Your rC+ mutation, like many bodily-shape mutations, is suppressed in most forms. A felid in dragon form with no jewelry equipped has rC-, just like any other species (not counting draconians, who have weird dragon forms).

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 05:52

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ZipZipskins wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:I don't claim that it makes the game more fun, it actually takes a lot more effort...
...One could argue that this doesn't make the game more interesting, just more tedious


Yes, one certainly could, and one would

And I agree to that point of view. I still maintain that playing a low HP species like a felid is an interesting challenge, but I'm not up to that challenge most of the time. When I want a straightforward game, I start a berserker, preferably with axes. Compared to felid gameplay, it usually takes half as much time for me to clear the main dungeon, but I tend to play way sloppier, which is why I don't have a berserker win yet.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 10:24

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

amalloy wrote:Your rC+ mutation, like many bodily-shape mutations, is suppressed in most forms. A felid in dragon form with no jewelry equipped has rC-, just like any other species (not counting draconians, who have weird dragon forms).


Ah - yes - forgot that one of my bound artefact rings had rC+ - thanks!
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 20:37

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

It's nice to see someone other than myself finding felids interesting. It feels very rewarding to survive/win with such a restricted race yet the limitations are offset with extra speed/stealth/lives just enough to make felids viable if you play well. Plus they are cats, isn't that awesome?
I can't agree with a couple points you made in this thread though. How do stabbers hit a wall around Lair runes if Spider, Shoals and Swamp are full of enemies who can't see invisible? And i don't see how Dragon Form is superior to Statue Form on felids outside of fighting single enemies, orbs of fire and deep troll earth mages. Both forms don't have problems with damage output but statue is so much better at tanking most attacks.
One of my recently won characters was a FeTm, and, to my surprise, it could do some stone claw stabbing with Passwall and score 5—7 exclamation marks in the log. Fun times.
Offline greaterplayer (who cares). I don't always play online, but when i do, i streak felids.
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 20:48

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

Dragon form does 50% more damage than statue form (basically identical per-hit damage, but it's not permaslowed). Even on felids (who are unusually suited to statue form) dragon form has some pretty good uses. Being able to move at normal (human, not felid) speed is good too.

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2016, 18:50

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

My FeTm worshipped Nemelex instead. It was back when you could still sacrifice items to him. I hoarded permafood I couldn't eat then sacrificed them for decks of Wonder. Got a few experience cards, used Blade paws and tore things up.
"Crawl is cruel. But we keep coming back to it like an abusive boyfriend. It keeps telling us how it will be different this time by giving us early robes of the archmagi and staves of fire. Then it backhands you with a Centaur on D4." ~Me

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Post Wednesday, 27th April 2016, 07:41

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

ZoFy wrote:I can't agree with a couple points you made in this thread though. How do stabbers hit a wall around Lair runes if Spider, Shoals and Swamp are full of enemies who can't see invisible?

Maybe "hitting a wall" is a bit of an exaggeration, but in my experience stabbers, especially with hexes, have a relatively easy time in D, L, and O, but the difficulty ramps up quite a bit in the Lair runes. Sleep stabs become rarer and there are many monsters with high enough MR that the usual strategy of disabling and stabbing becomes harder. +Inv is a super buff here, but not nearly always available. After finally winning with a spriggan recently, I found a stealthy conjurer to be a much easier build than an enchanter, for example, because in addition to the sleep stabs one can just blast anything that wakes up. Or one can just bypass the stabbing aspect altogether.

ZoFy wrote:And i don't see how Dragon Form is superior to Statue Form on felids outside of fighting single enemies, orbs of fire and deep troll earth mages. Both forms don't have problems with damage output but statue is so much better at tanking most attacks.
One of my recently won characters was a FeTm, and, to my surprise, it could do some stone claw stabbing with Passwall and score 5—7 exclamation marks in the log. Fun times.

More damage, more HP, Fe's in statform still can't use a shield, 1.0 movement speed (can still walk away), takes as much XP to get castable with Fe apts. Breath weapon is also occasionally useful. On most other Tm's I prefer statform. I did a wizmode comparison on an octopode once, and noticed that the damage dealt/damage received ratio was actually higher in statform--when using a shield.

Passwall stabbing with Ash is quite fun, I agree.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Sunday, 12th June 2016, 13:45

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

I'd wish to upgrade to 0.18 but I still have a bunch of characters that I need to finish before I can make the switch.

I must say that I got a bit lucky with this felid because I was down to <30 HP twice in Dephts. I had to burn through a bunch of ?blink scrolls just to make it and I mostly blame my usual choice of species, octopode, for that. Usually at this point an octopode with either statform or dragon feels quite unstoppable, but my poor felid seems to remain at poor health quite often. HP-40% remains a challenge I guess.

I used to think that UC+Statform is a free ticket to all-runing, but not all species are made equal I guess. I'll still try, let's see how it goes.

I haven't memorized statform or haste because Dragon deals more damage, and slow is a bigger issue with the lack of HP. Haste I could buy but with Finesse it isn't a priority either.

Crypt is the logical next stop because my previous transmuters have just breezed through it, but they all were in statform. Maybe I should memorize it next and train some earth to make it castable.

Dump: http://pastebin.com/raw/bq1pNu6U
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Sunday, 12th June 2016, 14:02

Re: CIP: FeTm^Oka, with some commentary on felid gameplay

What's the action plan here folks? Crypt->Zot->reconsider the all-runing plan, or visit a ten-or-so levels of a Zig and collect some XP and gear?
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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