YASD: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - Weapon-grade Stupid

Monday, 21st March 2016, 03:08 by MainiacJoe

This is my first FE since the very first days of playing. I have been beating my head against a wall with Cj lately and so I searched for threads about suggested beginner caster builds and chose HOFE mainly for the good HP and Fighting aptitudes, and because I've already done GrEE.

D:2 Sif, so I joined. Not a total waste of +3 Inv, but it will be a while before I reach the full potential.

My current plans in no particular order:

Train Invocations to get channel to a low failure rate, then turn it off for a while. Later I can train Invo up to where I can free up the ring slot where I have =Power now.
I'm in no rush for fireball, defenses and some sort of melee are a higher priority right now.
Lair XP will go towards Fireball and spell power with Book of Flames, with a goal of gaining enough piety to start the gifts. No good second book has dropped yet.
Train a weapon to speed <10, but I'm not sure which (see below).
Train weapon to mindelay after getting piety to 6* and after boosting defenses a little more.

So a few questions, again in no particular order:

Ought I keep some magical skill on all the time for Sif, or should I accept the slow piety decay when training defenses or a weapon? Is focusing on magic then on melee skills a good plan, or ought I be spreading XP out all the time?
It seems that apply and kite is the way to use Sticky Flame. Any other methods?
Which melee skill to train? I'm not sure about the great mace, it seems XP hungry though I'll surely switch to it as undead walk through conjured flames towards me. I'd really like to go into polearms because of the synergy with conjure flame and I've already found a glaive, but it doesn't crosstrain the mace. Another option is to just train axes and let both other weapon types live off the crosstraining, since they are not primary killdudes. That would be as if the M&F and Polearm aptitudes were 4 * log_2((2^0.75 * 0.4) * 2^0.25) = -1.29, and the axe training isn't wasted per se since I'm sure to find a battleaxe in Orc if not sooner.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17.1 (tiles) character file. MainiacJoe the Destroyer (HOFE) Turns: 10183, Time: 01:10:32 Health: 89/89 AC: 5 Str: 12 XL: 10 Next: 8% Magic: 12/21 EV: 13 Int: 17 God: Sif Muna [**....] Gold: 68 SH: 0 Dex: 14 Spells: 4 memorised, 2 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . X - +7 great mace {disrupt, rN+} rCold . . . Clarity . g - +0 leather armour rNeg + . . SustAt . (shield currently unavailable) rPois . Gourm . s - +0 helmet rElec . Spirit . (no cloak) rCorr . Warding . B - +0 pair of gloves rMut . Stasis . (no boots) MR ..... (no amulet) Stlth ++........ t - +2 ring of dexterity v - ring of magical power {=R} @: not resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy A: no striking features a: Channel Energy, Forget Spell, Renounce Religion You are on level 7 of the Dungeon. You worship Sif Muna. Sif Muna is pleased with you. You are near starving. You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 7 of its levels. You have collected 185 gold pieces. You have spent 117 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand Weapons a - a +2 morningstar of protection b - a +0 glaive r - a +0 war axe Q - a +0 quarterstaff V - a +0 halberd X - the +7 great mace "Undeadhunter" (weapon) {disrupt, rN+} (You took it off an orc on level 6 of the Dungeon) It protects you from negative energy. Missiles i - 170 stones j - 30 poisoned needles y - 4 tomahawks (quivered) K - 2 tomahawks of returning Armour g - a +0 leather armour (worn) s - a +0 helmet (worn) B - a +0 pair of gloves (worn) I - a +0 ring mail Jewellery m - an uncursed amulet of stasis t - a +2 ring of dexterity (right hand) v - a ring of magical power (left hand) {=R} L - an uncursed ring of see invisible O - a +4 ring of strength T - an uncursed ring of protection from fire Wands d - a wand of magic darts {zapped: 5} e - a wand of fire n - a wand of draining z - a wand of flame D - a wand of fireball E - a wand of confusion G - a wand of fire M - a wand of cold Scrolls o - 3 scrolls of teleportation q - 4 scrolls of recharging x - 2 scrolls of amnesia A - 3 scrolls of magic mapping R - 2 scrolls of identify U - a scroll of blinking Potions f - a potion of cancellation h - 3 potions of curing k - a fizzy sapphire potion p - a green potion u - a brown potion C - a white potion F - an orange potion H - a silvery potion N - a grey potion Books w - a book of Flames Spells Type Level a - Flame Tongue Conjuration/Fire 1 b - Throw Flame Conjuration/Fire 2 c - Conjure Flame Conjuration/Fire 3 d - Inner Flame Hexes/Fire 3 e - Sticky Flame Conjuration/Fire 4 f - Fireball Conjuration/Fire 5 W - a book of the Tempests Spells Type Level a - Static Discharge Conjuration/Air 3 b - Lightning Bolt Conjuration/Air 5 c - Fireball Conjuration/Fire 5 d - Tornado Air 9 e - Shatter Earth 9 Z - a book of Hinderance Spells Type Level a - Confusing Touch Hexes 2 b - Confuse Hexes 3 c - Gell's Gravitas Hexes/Translocation 3 d - Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 e - Metabolic Englaciation Hexes/Ice 5 Comestibles c - 10 bread rations l - 4 meat rations J - 2 fruits P - a royal jelly S - a beef jerky Skills: + Level 8.3 Fighting - Level 4.0 Armour * Level 3.6 Dodging * Level 2.0 Stealth - Level 1.5 Spellcasting - Level 8.4 Conjurations + Level 7.5 Fire Magic + Level 3.0 Invocations You have 2 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Flame Tongue Conj/Fire ####. 1% 1 ##..... b - Throw Flame Conj/Fire ####.. 1% 2 ###.... c - Conjure Flame Conj/Fire ####.... 3% 3 ####... d - Sticky Flame Conj/Fire ####.... 12% 4 #####.. Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (7/15) Temple (0/1) D:6 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Shops: D:4 [} D:6 [ Annotations: D:3 exclusion: downstairs D:4 Grinder D:5 exclusion: 2 orc priests Message History Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor The fire roars! Casting: Conjure Flame Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Conjure Flame Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor The fire roars! You are near starving! The scorpion is engulfed in roaring flames. Casting: Conjure Flame Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Conjure Flame Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor The fire roars! The scorpion is engulfed in roaring flames. You kill the scorpion! Your Stealth skill increases to level 2! Your Invocations skill increases to level 3! Okay, then. Save game and exit? #.............# ###...........## ##............## # ##...##.......## #####...#####....## ......<#### ##..## ##........## #### ....)......# ...........# ...........# ...........# ...........### ............@## ######## .............§###.#(.(o# .....).....##.§#........ ....÷......####§...#o.#. ..........## #...)...... ####......# #...#...... #.....## #.(........ #...>.# ##......... #....## #..#...... #....# ##........ #...## #...#..#. #...# #####........ There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures Pikel (D:3) A centaur zombie (D:6) 4 yaks (D:7) A spriggan (D:7) Eustachio (D:4) A water moccasin (D:7) 2 orc warriors A black bear (D:6) 2 sky beasts (D:5) A centaur (D:6) A necrophage (D:6) 3 giant frogs (D:6) A scorpion (D:7) A centaur skeleton (D:6) 2 giant frog zombies 2 hounds A giant frog skeleton (D:6) 2 gnoll shamans Ijyb (D:2) A jelly (D:5) 3 orc wizards (D:6) Jessica (D:3) 3 worker ants An orc priest (D:6) A killer bee zombie (D:6) A hound skeleton (D:6) Robin (D:1) 18 gnolls 8 adders An ooze (D:1) 3 worms (D:2) 9 giant geckos 16 orcs 5 ball pythons 6 giant cockroaches 7 hobgoblins 5 jackals 9 kobolds 2 quokkas 5 bats A giant gecko skeleton (D:6) 7 giant newts 13 goblins 10 rats 166 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) 2 slaves A crimson imp (D:6) An orc priest (D:6) 2 quokkas (D:4) A giant newt (D:4) A jackal skeleton (D:4) 8 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 174 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | MainiacJoe the Hill Orc Fire Elementalist began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 14/14 MP: 3/3 220 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 20/20 MP: 2/4 224 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Flame 1109 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 20/26 MP: 1/5 1436 | D:2 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 1448 | D:2 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 1836 | D:2 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 1839 | D:2 | Became a worshipper of Sif Muna the Loreminder 2097 | D:2 | Noticed Robin 2163 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 33/33 MP: 6/6 2218 | D:2 | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame 2381 | D:1 | Killed Robin 2629 | D:2 | Noticed Ijyb 2646 | D:2 | Killed Ijyb 2646 | D:2 | Reached skill level 4 in Fire Magic 2766 | D:2 | You fall through a shaft! 2842 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 38/38 MP: 0/7 3291 | D:3 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 4450 | D:3 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 4474 | D:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic 4485 | D:3 | Noticed Jessica 4492 | D:3 | Killed Jessica 4492 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 45/45 MP: 8/8 4577 | D:4 | Found Cuuq's Gadget Shop. 4591 | D:4 | Noticed Pikel 4769 | D:3 | Killed Pikel 4769 | D:3 | Reached * piety under Sif Muna 4769 | D:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations 4769 | D:3 | Reached skill level 6 in Fire Magic 4769 | D:3 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 22/50 MP: 7/9 4840 | D:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Fire Magic 4949 | D:4 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh. 5433 | D:4 | Reached ** piety under Sif Muna 5756 | D:4 | Found Itwicyd's Antique Armour Boutique. 5765 | D:4 | Bought a pair of gloves for 117 gold pieces 5871 | D:4 | Noticed Eustachio 5916 | D:4 | Killed Eustachio 5916 | D:4 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 43/57 MP: 7/10 5922 | D:4 | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame 6014 | D:4 | Noticed Grinder 6325 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 6483 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting 7561 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Armour 7779 | D:6 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 8020 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 8063 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 66/74 MP: 11/11 8111 | D:6 | Noticed a centaur zombie 8115 | D:6 | Killed a centaur zombie 8115 | D:6 | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations 8890 | D:6 | Found Quujoen's Antique Armour Boutique. 8943 | D:6 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 9268 | D:7 | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations 9886 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 84/88 MP: 12/12 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Mace | 28 | | | || 28 Quarterstaff | 1 | 99 | 69 | || 169 Glaive | | | 103 | || 103 Morningstar | | | 23 | || 23 Great mace | | | 12 | || 12 Fire: Blowgun | | | 3 | || 3 Throw: Stone | 2 | 1 | 12 | || 15 Tomahawk | | 1 | 12 | || 13 Cast: Flame Tongue | 48 | 72 | 87 | 1 || 208 Throw Flame | 6 | 9 | 21 | || 36 Conjure Flame | | 9 | 60 | 3 || 72 Sticky Flame | | | 12 | 2 || 14 Invok: Channel Energy | | | 1 | || 1 Use: Scroll | | 7 | 9 | || 16 Potion | | | 2 | || 2 Stab: Sleeping | 1 | 1 | | || 2 Eat: Chunk | 5 | 10 | 23 | || 38 Bread ration | | 1 | 1 | || 2 Royal jelly | | | 1 | || 1

Monday, 21st March 2016, 07:12 by edgefigaro

I want to be really explicit about something at the jump here. Channeling is Sif Muna. Sif Muna is Channeling. You have channeling. It is really strong. You can ignore Sif for a long time as long as you have channeling and lose very little. Early miscast protection and spellbooks are for species more geared towards magic than you are.

Undeadhunter pre-lair is a great weapon for HO, and a viable endgame weapon. I'd commit to it now. It is the defining characteristic of this character ATM. After you get it up and running you will go back for spells.

This character is going to play somewhat opposite from your previous character [see sidebar]. Now your target is to hit 16 M&F in Lair, appropriate defenses with no more XP in fire/conj/spellcasting than you have now (or enough in magic to keep these castable if you find a +2 ring or scale. )

I'd skill M&F to 10 immediately (and nothing else), then spread my XP around a bit more.

Fireball comes online between L8 and D15. You will go back for 20 M&F in s-branches.

Stealth is probably a trap on this character unless you find Steam Dragon Armour. Eventually you will likely be in some flavor of dragon armour beefy enough to tank your stealth pips.

Sif will be useful the whole game, but will be mainly useful for channeling until much later. Don't worry too much about getting your piety up for now. You don't gain a tremendous amount from getting piety up on sif early, at least not on a HO.

Spells to watch out for: Animate Skele, Spectral Weapon, Shroud of Golubria, Repel Missiles, Regen, Sputterflies, Phase. Don't get ozo's unless you find a Steam Dragon Armour.

Long term spells to dream about: Bolt of Fire, Ring of Flames, Haste. Deflect Missiles, Aura of Abjuration

Invocations to 6~8 is all you really need for a long time.

Stop taking int on early levels (3, 6, 9). Take dex. It helps you more in dungeon/lair. Generally, I take a point in dex, and then train dodging for my next point in EV. When I get it, I stop training dodge until i get another point in dex, then I train dodge until my next point in EV.

[sidebar] The core idea of your previous character was to get your god abilities and your magic spell going so your frail character could avoid combat, get some utility magic because it is cheap, and then fill in your phyiscal bases so your character can open up in vaults.

On this Hill Orc, Get your melee functional, and then fill in your low level utility spells, and your character opens up in vaults. Maybe sooner.

Hill Orcs are sturdy with good physical bases. Demonspawn are not sturdy with bad phyiscal bases. You have a +7 great mace with a +1 aptitude. Your demonspawn could hug Mahkleb through lair in ways your HO cannot replicate with Sif. Playing towards melee is playing toward this character's strengths. Yes, if you didn't have an undeadhunter, you would lean heavily on fire magic, sif, and your ring of Magic Power. If my troll didn't have a fire dragon armor, he would play way differently too.

Monday, 21st March 2016, 14:40 by MainiacJoe

Thank you!

Was Sif a mistake, or am I going to a hybrid style because of the early endgame weapon drop instead of because of my species? I hadn't thought before about it being a god that doesn't kick in until later in the game. Many of my decisions, such as the INT gain and the Stealth, were predicated on this idea that because I took early Sif, I was going to be a caster instead of a hybrid. I guess that's okay, finding the mace just recently. I thought I'd want the INT later to cast my eventual level 6 spells well.

You are right about Undeadhunter being the "defining characteristic" of the character. Nothing else stands out as exceptional. That's a good thing to remember for the future: when I'm not sure what to do next, take a look and see what's unusual about the character.

is the 12% fail for Sticky dangerous? If I'm casting it as melee range, I don't want to stand there and take two swings before I can start backing away because I miscast! Not having a good feel for what miscast rates are safe or not, I tend to err on the side of smaller. This makes me want to keep training my spell skills, though I recognize that the mace is the priority right now. It's also why I've been training armor, to try to get into my ring mail without losing Sticky.

Monday, 21st March 2016, 16:06 by edgefigaro

Sif isn't a mistake. Taking the first altar is a good choice 60-70% of the time. Sif just gives you the big ability * instead of 5*. Book gifts and miscast protection will be much more important later. This is fine. Later on you can overpower the -3 spellcasting. When you are higher level, you will have more spell slots from XL. You will also have more XP from XL.

You got sif to ** simply by getting your starting book online. Quite efficient.

You will become a better caster simply by getting further into the game. Channeling will help you get further into the game. You will probably find some cheap utility spells in the future.

Miscast protection much more valuable when you have good lvl 6+ spells and the MP pool and spell slots to support it.

FE is a good starting book. One of the reasons it is so good is because it is functional through lair with just sticky flame castable. Death yaks can be walked away from if they are too troublesome. An elephant pack may be able to outlast your magic pool, but you can kill a couple, reset, and kill the rest. Mambas can be sticky flamed. Hydras can be conjure flamed, stickied, and then walked away from. A blink frog pack may be troublesome, but shouldn't be deadly if you are cautious. You are ready for lair.

What do you want to do with your lair XP? Get another core aspect of your character online. Your +7 greatmace is the best return on investment at the moment.

Sticky at 12% is perfect where it is.

I would imagine this character getting ring of flames castable at 40% and then having a grand time through the end of the game with bolt of fire and fireball and a greatmace.

Edit: On armor, HO get str on every 5th level between now and the end of the game. FDA, IDA, Swamp DA, Storm Dragon Armor are decent plans. Good artifact Scale also may become useful. Later on, Sif Muna makes it much easier to be a mid armor caster as opposed to a light armor caster. Miscast protection + channelling. The only reason to stay light armor is if you are determined to get a lvl 8-9 spell up.

Later in the game, Sif will allow you to abuse your +2 armour proficiency and ability to wear armor in every slot.

Edit 2: Sif kicks in early. You get channeling.

Edit 3: Never train armor for miscast. If you want ring, put it on, and get enough spellcasting, conj, and fire to bring it down to ~15%. Spellcasting to 2.5 is probably worth atm.

Monday, 21st March 2016, 17:54 by MainiacJoe

aaaand: YASD within three minutes of starting up again! And it is indeed a STUPID death.

Ogre at LOS, beyond a diagonal chokepoint. Advance into the chokepoint to set up CF. Crimson imp called to the ogre's shout, I can't hurt it at all but it can't kill me, deal with the ogre then lead it upstairs. Except it had a wand of lightning. So now it's an emergency: I run back the way I came, but its blinks keep up with me. I teleport. During the wait, the wand runs out of charges and it starts throwing stones at me, of course. I land immediately next to another ogre, with maybe 13 HP. I do not use my scroll of blinking but instead try sticky flame and it hits and kills me. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

My string of deaths at about this dungeon depth lately all have this same pattern, of not responding to emergencies properly. What I ought to have done is clear in hindsight after the YASD, of course.

I've been trying to learn how to play blaster characters, because I haven't learned how yet. But it's apparent that I have more fundamental things to learn about emergency management and character building. What kind of characters ought I be running right now, to learn the things I need to learn?

Monday, 21st March 2016, 18:45 by edgefigaro

Play Human. HuFE. They are great, and flat apts take a lot of the pigeonholing out of a race.

Also, try not to have an idea for an endgame character at character creation. Or, have an idea for an endgame character, but don't worry about pursuing it to much until vaults. Getting to vaults matters. What you choose to spend XP on pre vaults doesn't really matter. Whether you go melee or blaster, 1/3 of XP is going to go into defenses for any character (never a waste), 1/3 of it is going to go into utility (never a waste). If you waste the final 1/3 of XP, you will make it all back in a single floor of depths. Go clear the greater mummies in tomb one, they are worth a fortune.

Monday, 21st March 2016, 18:48 by MainiacJoe

HuFE it is, thanks.

YASD: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - Weapon-grade Stupid

YASD: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - Weapon-grade Stupid

Re: CIP: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - What next?

Re: CIP: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - What next?

Re: CIP: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - What next?

Re: CIP: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - What next?

Re: YASD: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - Weapon-grade Stupid

Re: YASD: HOFE^Sif 0.17 - Weapon-grade Stupid

Who is online