CiP : KoBe, body armour choice

[mopl]

I have 3 options : this artefact ring mail, a +6 ShDA or a +3 FDA.

The ring mail gives me nice resists.

The ShDA makes my defenses 35/33, bonus to Stealth is fine for a stabber.

With the FDA, it's 28/37 with rF+++, I can swap the ring for something else...

Edit : related question, what about the Spriggan's knife for this character ?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-1910-g4c791fa (webtiles) character file.

hypermopl the Unseen (Kobold Berserker)            Turns: 64531, Time: 04:22:44

Health: 166/166    AC: 26    Str: 22    XL:     25   Next: 32%
Magic:  28/28      EV: 39    Int:  8    God:    Trog [*****.]
Gold:   2631       SH:  6    Dex: 30    Spells: 0 memorised, 24 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     a - +2 quick blade of Annihilation {drain, rElec rPois Str-2 Int+3}
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     d - +5 ring mail of Siennur {rElec rCorr MP-9 Str+3}
rNeg   + + +     SustAt   .     l - -3 buckler of Filth {rC+++}
rPois  +         Gourm    .     W - +2 hat {SInv}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     f - +2 cloak "Neycukk" {rC- rN++ Slay+2}
rCorr  +         Warding  .     S - +2 pair of fencer's gloves {LBl+4 SBl+4 EV+3 Dex+6}
rMut   .         Stasis   .     k - +2 pair of boots {run}
MR     +....                    G - amulet of faith {!P}
Stlth  ++++++++++               h - ring of Shadows {Umbra +Inv rN+ SInv}
                                Y - ring of protection from fire

@: wreathed by umbra, quick, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments,
uncannily stealthy
A: horns 1, agile 1, carnivore 3
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Invisibility
}: 3/15 runes: barnacled, silver, gossamer


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are very full.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 46 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Trove and Ossuary.

You have collected 7628 gold pieces.
You have spent 4997 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +2 quick blade of Annihilation (weapon) {drain, rElec rPois Str-2 Int+3}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
 b - a +3 blowgun
 n - a +4 antimagic quick blade
 T - the +5 quick blade of Instant Death {holy, +Rage rPois rN+}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the undead
   and demons.
   
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you go berserk.
Missiles
 B - 24 needles of confusion
 D - 6 needles of frenzy
 I - 14 needles of sleeping
 L - 14 needles of paralysis
 M - 3 tomahawks of dispersal
 P - 59 tomahawks (quivered)
 U - 15 poisoned tomahawks
 V - 45 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 d - the +5 ring mail of Siennur (worn) {rElec rCorr MP-9 Str+3}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your magic capacity (-9).
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
 f - the +2 cloak "Neycukk" (worn) {rC- rN++ Slay+2}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It greatly protects you from negative energy.
 g - a +2 shadow dragon armour
 k - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn)
 l - the -3 buckler of Filth (worn) {rC+++}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   It renders you almost immune to cold.
 S - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {LBl+4 SBl+4 EV+3 Dex+6}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your evasion (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+6).
 W - a +2 hat of see invisible (worn)
Jewellery
 h - the ring of Shadows (right hand) {Umbra +Inv rN+ SInv}
   (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)   
   
   [ring of invisibility]
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you see invisible.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 G - an amulet of faith (around neck) {!P}
 Y - a ring of protection from fire (left hand)
Scrolls
 x - 17 scrolls of remove curse
Potions
 e - 24 potions of curing
 j - 7 potions of ambrosia
 m - 14 potions of haste
 q - 7 potions of heal wounds
 C - 8 potions of might
 E - 3 potions of resistance
 F - 5 potions of flight
 N - 5 potions of agility
Miscellaneous
 o - a box of beasts {used: 1}
 t - a phial of floods
 v - a sack of spiders {used: 4}
 A - a lamp of fire
 H - a fan of gales
 J - a lantern of shadows
 O - a phantom mirror
Comestibles
 c - 19 meat rations


   Skills:
 + Level 19.3 Fighting
 - Level 12.2(16.2) Short Blades
 - Level 20.0 Throwing
 + Level 14.1 Armour
 - Level 20.0 Dodging
 - Level 20.0 Stealth
 - Level 5.8 Shields
 - Level 20.0 Evocations


You have 24 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:8
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:6       Spider (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
    Orc (4/4) D:11            Elf (3/3) Orc:4        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:2       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3      Depths (0/5) D:15

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Kikubaaqudgha
Nemelex Xobeh
Ru
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:5 *   D:9 }   Orc:1 =   Orc:3 (   Orc:4 ([*:   Elf:2 *   Elf:3 ?
Shoals:4 *   Vaults:2 %[:%=   Vaults:4 !

Annotations:
D:12 velo arba
Shoals:4 slay armour
Elf:1 triple cross
Vaults:1 FDH
Crypt:2 stone of tremors


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are small and have problems with some larger weapons.
You are carnivorous and can eat meat at any time.
You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You are agile. (Dex +2)

[nago]

You have similar defences in the three armous... on the long run, if you find enough ?ea the ShDA or FDA will be probably better, but that's really your call.
Anyway that ring mail gives no useful resistances.
You can also already swap that rf+ ring for something more useful, if you have, and equip back when you need it.

Never tried personally the sp knife, but most probably those quickblades (especially the am one) are better than a +7 dagger.

[Magipi]

But a dagger is better for stabbing than a quick blade, unless that was changed recently.

[nago]

Some math guy should help to here (have you reached the cap yet and so on), but I think that with 20 stealth and 16 sb you can oneshot anything appears in a 3 runes game with a qb as well.

[Siegurt]

Some math guy should help to here (have you reached the cap yet and so on), but I think that with 20 stealth and 16 sb you can oneshot anything appears in a 3 runes game with a qb as well.

IIRC, You hit the bonus base damage cap when (shortblades+stealth)* dex >= 1400 (or 700 for daggers)

At 20 dex, that is 17.5 skill in both for daggers, 35 for qblades.

At 35 dex, that is 20 skill for qblades, 10 for daggers.

[daggaz]

Some math guy should help to here (have you reached the cap yet and so on), but I think that with 20 stealth and 16 sb you can oneshot anything appears in a 3 runes game with a qb as well.

IIRC, You hit the bonus base damage cap when (shortblades+stealth)* dex >= 1400 (or 700 for daggers)

At 20 dex, that is 17.5 skill in both for daggers, 35 for qblades.

At 35 dex, that is 20 skill for qblades, 10 for daggers.

None of that matters if you hit the base hit-point cap of your victim. QB's will one-shot pretty much anything even at moderate skill levels. If I find a good mc'stabbin dagger, I'll carry it around for baddies that absolutely must die in that first shot, but for the most part, if something survives, it has so few hps left anyhow that you can dispatch it with QB melee before it really gets to react.

[mrthehoople]

I've been splatting a few KoBes of late, they're very enjoyable to play. I'm still far from sure of how to optimally build them though. My most successful was a robes wearing, double sword wielding crossbow firing dude. Crossbows cleared elf with barely a scratch on me, but they really struggled against draconian packs. He died to a gargoyle ghost tank in zot 2.. I had a quick blade wielding invisibility evoking dude who died in vaults after waking up a horde of monsters trying to stab them. Short blades alone just don't seem to deal the pain enough... I can see the synergy of blowguns and short blades, but against some stuff (like player ghosts!) they won't cut it either.

So what's the best way to go? Short blades and blowguns? Demon sword and buckler? Double sword and crossbow? Are robes the best armour choice - good for stealth and can still get half d cent AC with jewellery and auxiliary armour. Or is some kind of medium armour better?

I realise that best choice may depend on what you find of course, but in general, for a 3 rune run, what's likely to be best?

[Sar]

You probably don't actually want to wear a robe on a Berserker.

[agentgt]

I've been splatting a few KoBes of late, they're very enjoyable to play. I'm still far from sure of how to optimally build them though. My most successful was a robes wearing, double sword wielding crossbow firing dude. Crossbows cleared elf with barely a scratch on me, but they really struggled against draconian packs. He died to a gargoyle ghost tank in zot 2.. I had a quick blade wielding invisibility evoking dude who died in vaults after waking up a horde of monsters trying to stab them. Short blades alone just don't seem to deal the pain enough... I can see the synergy of blowguns and short blades, but against some stuff (like player ghosts!) they won't cut it either.

So what's the best way to go? Short blades and blowguns? Demon sword and buckler? Double sword and crossbow? Are robes the best armour choice - good for stealth and can still get half d cent AC with jewellery and auxiliary armour. Or is some kind of medium armour better?

I realise that best choice may depend on what you find of course, but in general, for a 3 rune run, what's likely to be best?

If you stick with trog long enough you will get something good regardless of weapon choice but you can stack the odds in your favor for certain weapons by training or not training certain things like shields.

The best damage weapons for kobolds are Eveningstar and Lajatang. Eveningstar is particularly good since it allows you to use a shield (unlike the double sword which I'm still shocked about) and maces are far more common than staves to train early. If you were not KoBe sblades would be a better option but since trog craps good weapons and you have a strong start I think maces are superior... For armour choice the simple heuristic of adding the AC + EV total works well for Kobold.

[daggaz]

For a kobold melee build, the most optimal is to go with shortblades until you find a demonblade (or double blade, they are significantly more rare tho) and then take advantage of your huge shortblades bonus and crosstraining. I like to push SB past mindelay at this point for more stabbity damage, and then toss a few points into LB to hit mindelay on my demonblade, quite easy to do. Demon blades are exceedingly common in the later game, and you will very likely find one with the elec brand which is just sweet sauce. If you do find a double blade, dont sweat going 2 handed as a buckler isn't really offering much in the way of SH, and a normal shield requires too high of an investment for a small race to justify not putting those points into, say, evocations.

That said, you can definitely beat the game with a +9 QB of (freezing/flaming/elec/holy!) but you will struggle putting down high AC monsters quickly and strategic positioning becomes even more essential.

[mrthehoople]

Well I'm still splatting kobolds - had a few die in zot now. I like them, they're remarkably versatile - invisistabber, evoker, berserker, slugger..

but not very strong. Or with any aptitude for heavy armour. Which is a shame when a +10 artefact plate drops. I'm currently getting lb to mindelay. How bad is this armour for me? Shall I take strength in some level ups and invest heavily in armour skill? If I wanted a pure slugger I'd have played a minotaur, the reason I like kobolds is that they can stab too.. and use crossbows..

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.2 (tiles) character file.

mrthehoople the Fighter (Kobold Berserker)         Turns: 17047, Time: 01:34:50

Health: 81/81      AC: 20    Str: 15    XL:     12   Next: 79%
Magic:  10/10      EV: 29    Int:  5    God:    Trog [******]
Gold:   930        SH:  2    Dex: 21    Spells: 0 memorised, 11 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis .     i - +4 scimitar
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     t - +3 leather armour {rC+}
rNeg   . . .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  +         Gourm    .     N - +2 helmet
rElec  +         Spirit   .     O - +1 cloak of the Eight Boll Weevils {rElec rC+}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     R - +2 pair of boots {Stlth+}
MR     .....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  +++++.....               U - +4 ring of evasion
                                z - ring of poison resistance

@: not resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: iridescent scales 1, large bone plates 1, carnivore 3, fire resistance 1, low
mp 1
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Trog.
Trog is exalted by your worship.
You are full.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 14 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer and Ossuary.

You have collected 930 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +0 hunting sling
 i - a +4 scimitar (weapon)
 y - a +4 dagger of draining
 F - a +4 short sword of venom
 I - a +4 long sword of freezing
 V - a blowgun
 Y - a +2 greatsling of flaming
Missiles
 e - 40 stones
 f - 60 bolts
 g - 21 tomahawks (quivered)
 j - 69 sling bullets
 k - 7 needles of sleeping
 B - 36 poisoned needles
 C - 3 poisoned tomahawks
 J - 12 steel sling bullets
Armour
 t - a +3 leather armour of cold resistance (worn)
 G - the +10 plate armour of Salvation {rElec rPois Int+3}
   (You took it off an orc warrior on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
 N - a +2 helmet (worn)
 O - the +1 cloak of the Eight Boll Weevils (worn) {rElec rC+}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 R - a +2 pair of boots of stealth (worn)
Jewellery
 d - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 w - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 z - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
 H - an uncursed ring of flight
 M - an uncursed amulet of stasis
 P - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 U - a +4 ring of evasion (right hand)
Magical devices
 l - a wand of disintegration
 s - a wand of fireball (0)
 E - a wand of flame {zapped: 11}
 Z - a wand of magic darts
Scrolls
 p - 6 scrolls of identify
 q - a scroll of blinking
 r - a scroll of enchant armour
 v - 12 scrolls of teleportation
 A - a scroll of fog
 W - a scroll of remove curse
 X - a scroll of fear
Potions
 h - 3 potions of haste
 u - 5 potions of curing
 D - a potion of lignification
 K - 2 potions of agility
 S - a potion of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 Q - a box of beasts
Comestibles
 c - 12 meat rations
 m - 5 beef jerkies
 T - 4 slices of pizza


   Skills:
 - Level 12.1 Fighting
 - Level 11.9(14.3) Short Blades
 * Level 9.1(10.3) Long Blades
 - Level 1.5 Armour
 - Level 11.0 Dodging
 - Level 5.0 Stealth


You have 11 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/15)            Temple (1/1) D:5            Lair (2/8) D:11
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:6 :


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are small and have problems with some larger weapons.
You are carnivorous and can eat meat at any time.
You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +4).
You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2).
Your flesh is heat resistant.
Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP).


Message History

The giant frog completely misses you.
You slice the giant frog!!
The giant frog is almost dead.
The giant frog barely misses you. The giant frog completely misses you.
You closely miss the giant frog.
The giant frog is almost dead.
The giant frog completely misses you.
You slash the giant frog!
You kill the giant frog!
Trog accepts your kill.
No target in view!
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You climb downwards.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You drop a potion of ambrosia.
You drop 2 potions of flight.
You drop 2 potions of restore abilities.
You drop a scroll of enchant weapon.
Saving game... please wait.

#######
#!@...#
#..<..#
#.....#
#(...(#
##+++##


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  A minotaur (Lab)
  A fire dragon (Lair:1)
  2 hydras
  2 centaur zombies
  2 spiny frogs (Lair:1)
  3 komodo dragons
  2 fire drakes
  A two-headed ogre (D:10)
  A troll (D:11)
  A slime creature (D:9)
  8 yaks
  A deep elf mage (D:8)
  3 hippogriffs
  2 wyverns
  4 hungry ghosts (Lab)
  2 soldier ants
  4 water moccasins
  2 black bears
  A porcupine (Lair:1)
  3 orc warriors
  2 necrophages
  4 ice beasts
  4 sky beasts
  A wasp (D:7)
  4 centaurs
  6 ogres
  4 crocodiles
  An elf zombie (Ossuary)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:8)
  5 big kobolds
  10 giant frogs
  A wyvern skeleton (D:7)
  6 scorpions
  13 jellies
  17 killer bees
  9 wights
  6 crimson imps
  6 hounds
  A quasit (D:10)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:10)
  2 goliath beetles
  10 worker ants
  5 orc priests
  3 centaur skeletons
  5 iguanas
  Natasha (thrice) (D:3)
  16 orc wizards
  9 sheep
  Ijyb (D:2)
  Jessica (D:2)
  A hound skeleton (D:11)
  6 mummies
  A worker ant zombie (D:5)
  7 gnolls
  6 river rats
  13 adders
  8 giant mites
  A worm (D:3)
  3 adder skeletons (D:5)
  4 giant geckos
  11 oozes
  47 orcs
  16 bats
  13 giant cockroaches
  14 goblins
  18 hobgoblins
  3 jackals (D:11)
  22 kobolds
  6 quokkas
  2 ball pythons
  A giant gecko skeleton (D:4)
  9 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:11)
  2 gnoll zombies (Ossuary)
  2 goblin zombies (Ossuary)
  A kobold zombie (Ossuary)
  6 orc zombies
  A quokka skeleton (D:8)
  16 rats
  2 rat zombies (Ossuary)
  2 ballistomycetes
448 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A goliath beetle (D:6)
  An iguana (D:9)
  A jackal (D:6)
  A quokka (D:6)
  A giant spore (D:9)
  7 fungi (D:9)
  A plant (D:9)
13 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 461 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | mrthehoople, the Kobold Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 14/14 MP: 1/1
   338 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 10/19 MP: 2/2
   535 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
   835 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 21/23 MP: 3/3
   847 | D:1      | Acquired Trog's second power
   954 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
   959 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
   975 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Short Blades
   975 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 25/28 MP: 4/4
  1207 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  1214 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  1973 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Short Blades
  1973 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 30/32 MP: 5/5
  1988 | D:3      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  1998 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  2309 | D:3      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  2384 | D:3      | Found a glowing drain.
  2388 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  2618 | Sewer    | Noticed a crocodile
  2627 | Sewer    | Killed a crocodile
  2627 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 8 in Short Blades
  2627 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 6. HP: 37/37 MP: 6/6
  2770 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  2772 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  2804 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  3034 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  3047 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  3584 | D:3      | Reached skill level 9 in Short Blades
  4876 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 38/41 MP: 7/7
  4959 | D:4      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  5218 | D:4      | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades
  5243 | D:4      | Acquired Trog's third power
  5480 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Long Blades
  5727 | D:4      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 32/48 MP: 8/8
  5814 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +4). [potion of mutation]
  5814 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2). [potion of mutation]
  5814 | D:4      | Gained mutation: Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP). [potion of mutation]
  5973 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  6011 | D:5      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  6402 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  6555 | D:5      | Found a runed door.
  6567 | D:5      | Found a runed door.
  6607 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  7154 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  7222 | D:5      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 46/54 MP: 8/8
  7234 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  7368 | D:6      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  7384 | D:6      | Found Qiunleah's Book Shoppe.
  7455 | D:6      | Found a sand-covered staircase.
  7477 | Ossuary  | Entered an ossuary
  8259 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
  8363 | D:6      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  8437 | D:6      | Identified a scroll of acquirement
  8444 | D:6      | Gained mutation: Your flesh is heat resistant. [potion of beneficial mutation]
  8614 | D:6      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  9068 | D:6      | Got an encrusted plate armour
  9079 | D:6      | Identified the +10 plate armour of Salvation {rElec rPois Int+3} (You took it off an orc warrior on level 6 of the Dungeon)
  9695 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 55/61 MP: 9/9
  9932 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Short Blades
  9932 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 10404 | D:8      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
 10596 | D:8      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 10744 | D:8      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
 10866 | D:8      | Received a gift from Trog
 11309 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 11584 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 64/69 MP: 9/9
 11653 | D:9      | Noticed a three-headed hydra
 11682 | D:9      | Killed a three-headed hydra
 11895 | D:9      | Received a gift from Trog
 12035 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 12063 | D:9      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 12246 | D:9      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
 12476 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 12775 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
 13108 | D:11     | Received a gift from Trog
 13584 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 13602 | D:11     | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
 13664 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 81/81 MP: 10/10
 14211 | D:11     | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
 14311 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 14371 | Lair:1   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 14385 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 15661 | Lab      | Noticed a minotaur
 15687 | Lab      | Killed a minotaur
 15749 | Lab      | Got a brightly glowing cloak
 15760 | Lab      | Identified the +1 cloak of the Eight Boll Weevils {rElec rC+} (You found it in a labyrinth)
 16258 | Lair:1   | Noticed a fire dragon
 16279 | Lair:1   | Killed a fire dragon
 16298 | Lair:1   | Got a transparent silver ring
 16300 | Lair:1   | Identified the ring "Caceijai" {rPois rC+ Int+6 Slay-5} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 16661 | Lair:1   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 16677 | Lair:1   | Killed a six-headed hydra


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |    88 |   279 |   844 |   901 ||  2112
       Long sword        |       |       |    35 |    69 ||   104
       Dagger            |       |       |       |    60 ||    60
       Scimitar          |       |       |       |    37 ||    37
 Fire: Hunting sling     |       |       |    18 |       ||    18
Throw: Tomahawk          |     6 |     5 |    21 |     1 ||    33
Invok: Berserk           |     1 |     4 |     2 |     5 ||    12
       Burn Spellbooks   |       |       |     2 |     1 ||     3
Evoke: Wand              |       |     1 |     2 |       ||     3
  Use: Scroll            |       |     5 |     9 |    10 ||    24
       Potion            |       |       |    14 |     2 ||    16
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     1 |     7 |    27 ||    35
       Distracted        |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |     7 |    19 |    16 |    25 ||    67
       Pizza             |       |       |       |     2 ||     2


[Sar]

I'd probably use it. It's a +10 plate.

[WingedEspeon]

IDK why you are using long blades with a -2 apt when you could just use m&f with a 0 apt or even UC. Cross training puts 40% of the experiance you put into a skill into the cross trained skills. The key here is that it is experiance that is redirected, not skill levels. This means that your short blade apt is irrelivent when training long blades, only the amount of exp you put into short blades matters. Because raising short blades to a small skill amount like 12 takes so little exp with kobald apts, getting m&f to 12 should still take a smaller amount of exp than getting long blades to 12.

Personally I think UC is a prefectly good start for KoBe. The relitivly high attack speed of starting UC compared to non short blade weapon classes is good when bezerk.

[mrthehoople]

I think the advantage of sb over uc is that stabbing remains a good option for kobolds (especially if evokable invisibility turns up), so early xp investment remains useful. Your point about m&f being better than lb is true, I hadn't realised cross training had changed that way! And I can use evening star 1 handed I think whereas double blade is 2h. With Trog gifting a decent one turns up quite often. And bashy things kill hydras better...

[greedo]

@hoople Keep in mind, you don't have to finish the game wearing that armour so you don't have to put points into strength. You could train armour to 12 or so, then when you find a good dragon armour type that fits your resists, switch to it and go stealthy again. Ko's don't do well in heavy armour, so I wouldn't finish the game in it.

But yeah, a +10 rPois plate armour in lair is crazy good for that area.

[WingedEspeon]

I think the reason I sugested UC is because I like UC and I always end up dying whenever I try training stealth because I get out of position trying to stab something ( Even the one stealthy character I won. Hooray for felid extra lives). UC is also a really high damage/high skill investment weapon, which fits how I play bezerkers well, and Ko doesn't have the option for many high damage weapons. High attack speed weapons also good for bezerking which makes UC better alround D:1. It also makes starting with short blades a lot stronger. starting with short blades and transitioning to another weapon is fine, it just doesn't suit my style well.

Kobalds also have a very good throwing apt, so doing the early game with melee and then transitioning to a throwing hunter playstyle is certainly a strong option.

@hoople You can always ditch it later. I would use it for now. You probably want some armour training on your endgame build anyway, so getting some armour now and using it will probably be strictly helpful.

[mrthehoople]

Thanks for all your help folks. Goes to show there's a lot to learn even playing a character that just hits things with pointy sticks, DC is a really clever game..

Unfortunately I splatted this dude in lair 8. It was death by drinking wine and pressing the tab key too much. Then deciding to berserk rather than drinking healing potion and blinking out of there. Even when I know how to play properly I still manage to make bad choices...

I wasn't wearing the armour either...