Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 18:40 by Jushak

As per title, I'm returning to Crawl after ~year long break. I continuing with my old Spriggan Enchanter for few hours, only to die to carelessness, Good fun, especially considering I abandoned the character as "hopeless" year ago due to being short-sightedly tunnel-visioning on same route I used on my other characters. I've now thrown a few Deep Elf casters down the drain - mostly due to my #1 cause of death, carelessness. While most of the deaths have been the kind that could've easily been avoided had I not done something stupid, the more I play (and die!) the more I realize again just how little I know about the game.

Since asking generic questions in a game like is likely to produce equally generic - and often useless - answers, I'll try to keep them focused on what I'm playing right now: Deep Elf Wizard of Vehumet.

The goal is to mostly obliterate stuff at range, before it gets to melee range and becomes a problem. Vehumet chosen for the range bonus and mana-efficiency, as well as simply being simple god to play with. Currently using the Staff of Wizardry for better offense.

As for the questions...

* I've been neglecting my defenses thus far, trusting in idiom "best defense is a good offense". However, I remember losing characters to such thinking before though, so I'm wondering... Are there any HP "thresholds" I should shoot for when moving to specific areas? Like "X HP to avoid getting one-shot by monster Y"? How about some general idea how much to invest into Dodging? Other things I should consider?

* Related to above. Currently I'm using a simple robe along with the Staff of Power and some non-magical accessories. I seem to remember seeing mention of Armour 9 being useful threshold to reach, due to removing penalty of using some kind of armor/shield if memory serves. Just how big of a deal is this? Mandatory? Preferable? Only if I find a very good item to justify it first?

* Considering the spellbooks available, any spells that really scream "learn me"? Currently only using Fireball and Ignite Poison outside Minor Magic.

* My last character type in stealthy backstabber of a Spriggan Enchanter taught me a bit more of just how useful Stealth can be. How useful is it for this kind of character though? Any specific thresholds I should at least consider? I'm already quite noisy with Fireball and Mephitic Cloud being used often, so is just a waste to bother with Stealth at this point? Or perhaps even more important because of it?

* Stats. I've invested fully into Int thus far, leaving my Str to a mere 4 and Dex to 13. Should I consider putting points into either of the two and if so, why? Is there a point of diminishing returns where more Int is no longer desirable?

* Staves skill. Is it used just for increased hit chance / attack speed, or is there another, more pressing reason to dedicate some XP into this?

Might add more when more questions pop up. Any generic advice for this kind of character is also welcome.

Edit: most recent dump:

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.0-6-gad6103a (webtiles) character file. Jushak the Thaumaturge (Deep Elf Wizard) Turns: 13786, Time: 01:46:22 Health: 54/54 AC: 11 Str: 4 XL: 11 Next: 20% Magic: 34/34 EV: 16 Int: 27 God: Vehumet [****..] Gold: 479 SH: 0 Dex: 13 Spells: 9 memorised, 6 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . u - +1 dire flail (protect) rCold . . . Clarity . R - +2 robe rNeg . . . SustAb . (no shield) rPois . Gourm . b - +0 hat rElec . Spirit . (no cloak) rCorr . Warding . X - +0 pair of gloves rMut . Stasis . r - +0 pair of boots MR +.... (no amulet) Stlth ++........ I - +3 ring of slaying o - ring of invisibility @: repel missiles, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy A: no striking features a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility You are on level 9 of the Dungeon. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is greatly pleased with you. You are not hungry. You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels. You have collected 479 gold pieces. Inventory: Hand weapons i - a dagger of chaos u - a +1 dire flail of protection (weapon) J - a spear of chaos K - a dagger of chaos M - a spear of chaos N - a dagger of chaos Q - a whip of freezing Armour b - a +0 hat (worn) r - a +0 pair of boots (worn) x - a troll hide R - a +2 robe (worn) X - a +0 pair of gloves (worn) Magical staves n - an uncursed staff of wizardry Jewellery o - a ring of invisibility (left hand) I - a +3 ring of slaying (right hand) Magical devices y - a wand of frost {zapped: 15} L - a wand of polymorph {zapped: 2} O - a wand of cold {zapped: 4} P - a wand of confusion S - a wand of polymorph T - a wand of paralysis Y - a wand of disintegration Scrolls g - 3 scrolls of identify h - 5 scrolls of remove curse j - 6 scrolls of amnesia k - 3 scrolls labeled LEUHEO CRIMO l - a scroll labeled QOICOD AZONK m - a scroll labeled BOUMUEKKIU q - 5 scrolls labeled OZEIFRA LEUVA w - a scroll labeled JOLEHURPHUM z - a scroll labeled PNOEMIREHI A - 2 scrolls labeled KIOLUW SAALIE F - a scroll labeled GREOTUF LON JIXOL G - a scroll of teleportation H - 2 scrolls labeled PETZURPHAABA W - a scroll labeled SCHUJINOZAWK Potions e - 2 potions of curing f - 2 potions of mutation p - 2 potions of cure mutation t - 3 potions of haste v - a potion of heal wounds D - 2 potions of brilliance E - 2 potions of flight U - a potion of agility Books a - a book of Dreams Spells Type Level a - Ensorcelled Hibernation Hexes/Ice 2 b - Flight Charms/Air 3 c - Phase Shift Translocation 5 d - Shadow Creatures Summoning 5 e - Mass Confusion Hexes 6 f - Darkness Hexes 7 c - a book of Minor Magic Spells Type Level a - Magic Dart Conjuration 1 b - Blink Translocation 2 c - Call Imp Summoning 2 d - Repel Missiles Charms/Air 2 e - Slow Hexes 2 f - Conjure Flame Conjuration/Fire 3 g - Mephitic Cloud Conjuration/Poison/Air 3 C - a book of Fire Spells Type Level a - Ignite Poison Fire/Transmutation 5 b - Fireball Conjuration/Fire 5 c - Bolt of Fire Conjuration/Fire 6 d - Delayed Fireball Conjuration/Fire 7 e - Ring of Flames Charms/Fire 7 Z - a book of the Earth Spells Type Level a - Leda's Liquefaction Hexes/Earth 4 b - Bolt of Magma Conjuration/Fire/Earth 5 c - Statue Form Transmutation/Earth 6 d - Iron Shot Conjuration/Earth 6 e - Shatter Earth 9 Comestibles d - 2 bread rations s - 7 royal jellies B - a beef jerky V - 4 meat rations Skills: + Level 0.0 Fighting - Level 8.0 Dodging - Level 2.5 Stealth - Level 12.0 Spellcasting - Level 10.3 Conjurations - Level 8.1 Charms - Level 1.1 Summonings - Level 1.1 Translocations - Level 9.1 Fire Magic You have 6 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Magic Dart Conj #### 1% 1 None b - Blink Tloc N/A 3% 2 None c - Mephitic Cloud Conj/Pois/Air ####.... 1% 3 None d - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air #####. 1% 2 None e - Fireball Conj/Fire ######.... 1% 5 ###.... f - Conjure Flame Conj/Fire ######.. 1% 3 None g - Call Imp Summ ###..... 3% 2 None h - Ignite Poison Fire/Trmt #####..... 4% 5 ###.... i - Bolt of Magma Conj/Fire/Erth ######.... 2% 5 ###.... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (10/15) Temple (0/1) D:5 Orc (0/4) D:9 Lair: D:8-11 Altars: Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Kikubaaqudgha Okawaru Sif Muna Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul The Shining One Shops: D:4 % D:6 [ D:9 ! Annotations: D:2 1 runed door Message History You continue eating. x2 Things that are here: a dagger; a robe Things that are here: a dagger; a robe Your pack is full. Things that are here: a short sword; 3 chunks of flesh You offer a prayer to Vehumet. Vehumet is greatly pleased with you. Okay, then. Casting: Magic Dart Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Okay, then. Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)? (? for menu, Esc to quit) You feel protected! u - a +1 dire flail of protection (weapon) Casting: Magic Dart Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Okay, then. #.....##########....# # #..∩..'........#....# # #.....#........#....# # #.....#........#....# # #.....#........#....# # #.....#........'....# ####### #.....#..####)##....####...... #######..#.>.................. #...'...@)).............. #...#....)............... ## ##..#.................... .## #...#.................... ..# #..##.................... ..# #....####'##............. #########....'.....####'###...... .............#.....'......'...... ..†..........#.....#......#...... There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures 2 hill giants (D:10) Pikel (D:5) A manticore (D:9) A queen bee (D:9) 2 trolls (D:10) Grinder (D:5) A two-headed ogre (D:10) 12 yaks (D:10) A hippogriff (D:8) Edmund (D:4) Menkaure (D:5) 3 sky beasts 4 ice beasts 2 orc warriors 3 slaves (D:5) 4 ogres 4 centaurs A crocodile (D:9) 4 giant frogs 21 killer bees 4 scorpions A centaur zombie (D:8) A goliath beetle (D:9) A crimson imp (D:8) 7 hounds 6 orc priests 2 quasits A jelly (D:10) 2 centaur skeletons 2 giant frog skeletons 3 iguanas 10 orc wizards 6 worker ants Ijyb (D:5) 2 hound skeletons 12 gnolls A worker ant zombie (D:10) 13 adders A river rat (D:6) 2 giant mites A worm (D:6) 2 adder zombies 2 adder skeletons 4 giant geckos 44 orcs 2 bat skeletons (D:7) A bat zombie (D:8) 6 giant cockroaches 20 hobgoblins 4 jackals (D:9) 7 quokkas 2 ball pythons 15 bats A giant gecko skeleton (D:4) 2 giant newts A giant spore (D:10) 12 goblins A goblin skeleton (D:8) A goblin zombie (D:8) 2 hobgoblin zombies (D:8) 17 kobolds 2 kobold skeletons (D:8) A kobold zombie (D:8) An orc skeleton (D:8) 2 quokka skeletons 22 rats 3 ballistomycetes (D:10) 326 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) A scorpion (D:5) A crimson imp (D:5) A hound (D:5) A worker ant (D:5) A white imp (D:6) An orc (D:6) 6 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 332 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Jushak, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 6/6 265 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 2/10 269 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink 272 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp 275 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles 666 | D:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 937 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 10/14 1288 | D:2 | Found a runed door. 1288 | D:2 | Noticed a human 1293 | D:2 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 1465 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud 1606 | D:3 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 1616 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 9/17 2145 | D:3 | Noticed a giant frog 2247 | D:3 | Killed a giant frog 2247 | D:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations 2247 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 11/19 2252 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame 2567 | D:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations 2651 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 26/32 MP: 17/21 2923 | D:4 | Found Praes' Food Shoppe. 3160 | D:4 | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations 3617 | D:4 | Noticed Edmund 3803 | D:4 | Killed Edmund 3803 | D:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations 3803 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 12/22 4231 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4274 | D:5 | Noticed Ijyb 4532 | D:5 | Killed Ijyb 4798 | D:5 | Noticed Grinder 4817 | D:5 | Noticed Pikel 5074 | D:5 | Killed Grinder 5074 | D:5 | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations 5324 | D:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations 5324 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 25/41 MP: 2/24 5653 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic 5915 | D:6 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 5920 | D:6 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 5928 | D:6 | Became a worshipper of Vehumet 5933 | D:6 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 6057 | D:6 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 6092 | D:6 | Found Broas' Armour Shop. 6296 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic 6651 | D:6 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 6741 | D:6 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 6743 | D:6 | Found an opulent altar of Gozag. 7081 | D:6 | Acquired Vehumet's first power 7081 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Sting by Vehumet. 7167 | D:5 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 7328 | D:5 | Noticed Menkaure 7345 | D:5 | Killed Menkaure 7502 | D:5 | Killed Pikel 7502 | D:5 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 32/45 MP: 10/25 8274 | D:7 | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball 9184 | D:8 | Offered knowledge of Sandblast by Vehumet. 9682 | D:8 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 10089 | D:8 | Offered knowledge of Inner Flame by Vehumet. 10313 | D:9 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 10514 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting 10514 | D:9 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 21/31 10534 | D:9 | Learned a level 5 spell: Ignite Poison 10550 | D:9 | Acquired Vehumet's second power 10560 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 10825 | D:10 | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting 10884 | D:10 | Reached skill level 5 in Charms 11148 | D:10 | Offered knowledge of Static Discharge by Vehumet. 11311 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11319 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11353 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11371 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11371 | D:10 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 11592 | D:10 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 11993 | D:10 | Acquired Vehumet's third power 12444 | D:9 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 38/54 MP: 26/33 12450 | D:9 | Offered knowledge of Lightning Bolt by Vehumet. 12665 | D:9 | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma 13299 | D:9 | Found Evirun's Distillery. 13460 | D:9 | Noticed a manticore 13463 | D:9 | Killed a manticore 13743 | D:9 | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Staff | | 7 | 35 | 57 || 99 Cast: Magic Dart | 82 | 149 | 355 | 110 || 696 Mephitic Cloud | 2 | 16 | 52 | 10 || 80 Conjure Flame | | 3 | 30 | 11 || 44 Blink | | | 8 | 1 || 9 Repel Missiles | | | 3 | 1 || 4 Call Imp | | | 4 | || 4 Fireball | | | 28 | 35 || 63 Bolt of Magma | | | | 23 || 23 Ignite Poison | | | | 1 || 1 Use: Scroll | | 2 | 1 | 6 || 9 Potion | | | | 4 || 4 Stab: Confused | | | 5 | || 5 Eat: Chunk | 1 | 6 | 26 | 15 || 48 Pizza | | 1 | | || 1 Beef jerky | | | 1 | 1 || 2

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 19:21 by Hurkyl

I think you were trying to remember "shields 9", the threshold at which a spriggan fully removes all penalties for wearing a buckler. You probably just care about spellcasting penalties, and for normal-sized races, 1 shield skill is enough, I think, for a buckler.

Staff of Wizardry, incidentally, doesn't make your spells more powerful: it just makes them easier to cast. So it's great if it means the difference between being able to cast bolt of fire and not being able to cast it, but it doesn't do much for you if all of your spells have good failure rates without it.

Usually, until mid game, a blaster mage alternates between training magic to get the next spell, then training defenses (mostly fighting and dodging) for a while until it's time to start working on the next spell. This pattern can even last through nearly the entire game if you're going for level 9 spells. Assuming you're still at the point where it matters, the biggest thing that Staff of Wizardry does for you is that it lets you start the "train defenses" cycles much, much earlier.

(you might eventually want to train magic skills for the purpose of increasing your damage, but IMO that's a minor effect and better put off until training defenses becomes comparatively expensive)

If you have a staff of power, at some point you'll want to train up your magic skills so that you don't need wizardry to cast them and you can switch to staff of power; I find the MP bonus to be pretty powerful.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 19:27 by KoboldLord

Generally speaking, it's a good idea to post a full dump. Your reasoning for providing the information you did is good, but if you don't know what generic questions to ask you might not recognize something important that you should tell us.

Wizardry is probably something you want to outgrow eventually, although there's no problem using it for the time being. It raises spell success but not spell power, and spell power is rather important for a deep elf of Vehumet that is almost exclusively using conjurations. Protection is nice for the time being, too, but don't discount the possibility of getting a hold-out melee weapon for handling things that are not too dangerous when you don't want to risk being low on mp or want to manage noise. An enhancer staff for your element of choice is not a bad option, either, if it turns up, since that raises the damage of your spells.

It probably is not a good idea to continue neglecting your defenses, and how much to raise your defenses depends on the character. For a deep elf, dodging is the most cost-effective per level, but low-level investment in everything is going to be more cost-effective than pushing everything on one defensive skill. Get them as long as they still feel like cheap investments. Armour is probably the least favorable, however, verging on nearly useless unless you decide to upgrade to a body armor that has higher base AC. With 4 strength, it's probably best just to stick to fighting, dodging, and stealth.

Stealth works great with a ranged character. It often means you get to choose whether to initiate a fight or not, and if you have to leave in a hurry it means that the monsters chasing you will start losing track of you quicker once you've broken line-of-sight with them. It is much easier to break up packs with decent stealth investment, which helps keep you from running out with still-dangerous threats on the field.

Strength is only useful if you plan to upgrade body armor in the future. Probably not worth it. Dexterity at least provides a good multiplier that works into your EV, but intelligence is very nice all the way up for a spell power-dependent character.

Staff skill is for hitting things with staves. It is useful only if you get a damaging enhancer staff or a lajatang, and does essentially nothing with a staff of wizardry since extra attack speed means you deal zero damage slightly faster.

I don't even know how far you are into this game, so there's not really much I can say about strategic matters.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 19:58 by Jushak

Added current dump.

Guessing I'm switching to Protection weapon for now, since my spells are all only 1-5% miscast right now.

Starting skilling of Fighting for now I guess, since my HP is pretty low.

Thanks for the answers thus far, more suggestions are welcome though.

If it doesn't show up on the dump, I'm just starting Orc-branch and have cleared 10 levels of Dungeon thus far.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 20:07 by KoboldLord

For goodness' sake, identify your scrolls. It could easily be a matter of life or death. Three scrolls of identify aren't going to do any good in your inventory or on your stash, and there are some stacks that you could read-identify too.

I would swap Bolt of Magma to Bolt of Fire; BoF has much higher range and doesn't get spell power leached off by a lack of investment in a third spell skill. Against fire-resistant monsters, cast it twice. Against fire-immune monsters, stroll casually away in the other direction until you find a less xp-intensive way to get around their immunity.

Your next stop is to find Lair and kill everything inside. Try to break up packs before killing them, and mind the noise. Bolt of Fire/Magma is much quieter than Fireball, even though they are harder to cast. Conjure Flame can reliably kill much of Lair, too. Orc is relatively less favorable for your character, since there are some uncommon spawns that are very dangerous and you probably don't much want the gold, weapons, or body armor that drop.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 20:17 by Siegurt

Actually, you have six spell levels available, just memorize BoF, bolt of mama isn't too bad for level 5, but as was pointed out, it loses spell power from not having earth trained (if it was a choice I would always take BoF, but having both doesn't suck)

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 20:43 by Jushak

Cheers for the advice.

Yeah, my scrolls could indeed use identifying. Need to check up how many dangerous ones I have left unidentified. Same for pots,

Of the branches, Lair and Orc I'm quite familiar with. If memory serves I've reached last level in few of the Rune branches as well (the Spriggan died in last level of Swamp). Most of my mages just blasted everything with Fireball and escaped downstairs to refresh in lair... Which is pretty careless I guess. Guess I'll try a more careful approach for a change.

Siegurt is right I guess, having both BoF and BoM for now and dropping BoM later on sounds like a good idea until I find/decide next spell to skill up for.

Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Re: Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Re: Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Re: Returning to DCSS, back to basics

Re: Returning to DCSS, back to basics

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