SpEn god & magic choice

[danr]

Just found the temple, and have also found the book of minor magic as well as a book of battle. Both books offer intriguing options but I don't want to spread myself too thin skill-wise. Should I start branching into conjurations, or more melee magic buffs? And given that I have this choice, which god should I go with?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15.2 (tiles) character file.

Skuzy the Vexing (Spriggan Enchanter)               Turns: 8803, Time: 00:53:27

HP  36/36        AC  6     Str  8      XL: 8   Next: 41%
MP  25/25        EV 22     Int 17      God:
Gold 75          SH  0     Dex 17      Spells:  5 memorised,  9 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     r - +2 dagger (venom)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     b - +1 robe
rNeg   . . .     rCorr    .     (shield restricted)
rPois  .         rRot     .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     L - +2 cloak
SustAb .         Warding  .     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
Gourm  .                        (no amulet)
MR     +....                    e - +3 ring of strength
                                (no ring)

@: very quick, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 2
a: no special abilities


You are in the Ecumenical Temple.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 7 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 240 gold pieces.
You have spent 165 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 r - a +2 dagger of venom (weapon)
 t - a blowgun
Missiles
 p - 7 tomahawks (quivered)
 u - 6 poisoned needles
Armour
 b - a +1 robe (worn)
 L - a +2 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 a - a brass wand
 E - a wand of cold {zapped: 2}
 F - a wand of frost {zapped: 3}
Comestibles
 f - a royal jelly
 g - 3 bread rations
 q - a slice of pizza
Scrolls
 d - 4 scrolls of recharging
 i - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 o - a scroll of amnesia
 w - a scroll of magic mapping
 x - 3 scrolls of identify
 y - 2 scrolls of blinking
 z - 2 scrolls of fear
 H - a scroll of remove curse
 I - a scroll labeled OKOGIXTIPREU
 J - a scroll labeled DIUFUTTAESA
Jewellery
 e - a +3 ring of strength (right hand)
 k - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 K - a dented pearl amulet
 M - a blackened iron ring
Potions
 h - a slimy inky potion
 j - 3 potions of curing
 l - a potion of lignification
 m - a potion of might
 s - 2 potions of restore abilities
 v - a potion of invisibility
 A - 2 potions of heal wounds
 B - a viscous black potion
 C - 2 potions of magic
 G - a blue potion
Books
 c - a book of Maledictions   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Corona                            Hexes                        1
   Sure Blade                         Hexes/Charms                 2
   *Ensorcelled Hibernation           Hexes/Ice                    2
   *Confuse                           Hexes                        3
   *Dazzling Spray                    Conjuration/Hexes            3
   Enslavement                        Hexes                        4
 n - a book of Minor Magic   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   Blink                              Translocation                2
   Call Imp                           Summoning                    2
   Repel Missiles                     Charms/Air                   2
   Slow                               Hexes                        2
   Conjure Flame                      Conjuration/Fire             3
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
 D - a book of Battle   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Infusion                           Charms                       1
   Shroud of Golubria                 Charms/Translocation         2
   Song of Slaying                    Charms                       2
   Spectral Weapon                    Hexes/Charms                 3
   Regeneration                       Charms/Necromancy            3


   Skills:
 - Level 1.1 Short Blades
 - Level 6.9 Dodging
 - Level 6.8 Stealth
 - Level 6.1 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.2 Conjurations
 + Level 7.8 Hexes


You have 9 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Corona                Hex            ####...      1%          1    None
b - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Hex/Ice        ###...       4%          2    None
c - Confuse               Hex            ####....     1%          3    ##.....
d - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       ###.....     4%          3    ##.....
e - Magic Dart            Conj           ###.         3%          1    None




[Berder]

For now just continue to train your melee and hexes, which will serve you well through lair. You at least want your short blade at mindelay (10 short blades skill), and more hexes and defenses. Probably train short blades 100% for now since you haven't trained them yet. It's too early to worry about the enemies you can't hex or stab. Bear in mind you're going to need like 20 hexes if you want to hex death yaks. Although outrunning them is a good option.

Then, probably go for the book of battle magic, because those spells are great all game and your aptitudes for them are good, too.

For gods - dithmenos is nice.

[and into]

I'd suggest memorizing enslavement and focusing on getting some short blades skill, first. You don't need 20 hexes to stick confuse to a death yak, but they aren't easy to hex; fortunately conjure flame is cheap and very effective against many of the melee enemies that can be tough to hex, and this is especially true for a spriggan. (Of course you could just run away, though.) Regeneration and possibly shroud of golubria are the only things I'd bother with from book of battle on this character, but I wouldn't consider those a priority.

Kiku, Fedhas, Makhleb, Zin, Dith, and Sif are all in the "solid" to "very strong" range as far as god choices go for a SpEn, in my opinion. Nemelex too probably, but I'm not so familiar with reformed Nem. On a character as strong as SpEn I'd probably choose from amongst those gods mostly on the basis of what kind of game I wanted to play.

[danr]

Isn't Zin a good god that would frown on stabbing?

Didn't know nemelex had been reformed. I always read that he was good for SpEn but I found the deck management game too tedious.

[crate]

the only god who hates stabbing is tso

edit: also kiku still is the best spen god, just like for the past many versions

[and into]

Yes, I agree Kiku is the strongest for SpEn.

[kroki]

Yes, I agree Kiku is the strongest for SpEn.

pain brand is nice but what else? and why is kiku better than dith?

[Siegurt]

Also Ru isn't bad.

[crate]

zombies kill everything, that's why kiku is the best

[Hurkyl]

Mephitic Cloud is an excellent addition to your spell list, as it allows you to confuse more kinds of monsters, and some of them much more easily. Prior to the changes in the book of maledictions, I felt this was the most useful spell to find early on. I don't know if I still feel that way now that Dazzling Spray is in the starting book.

Getting your dagger to min delay is not a priority, unless for some strange reason you find yourself getting into 'fair' fights.

However, I think it's not too long before you want 5 stabbing (so stealth + short blades = 10), and in my opinion you want 8 stabbing (or a bit more since you don't have a good dagger for it) around when you enter lair or soon thereafter, so that you can sleep-stab hydras or that it doesn't take too long to confuse stab various things. And while you get more use out of stealth for this, it's too expensive to do it on stealth alone, and reduced delay does help even if it isn't a priority.

[celem]

I'd be rather tempted to go Kiku too, tried a few gods on SpEn and it seems strong, Oka can work too to help make sure you get wearable AC.

Would definately pick up shroud, that will come online basically for free with Sp apts and is handy in the swarms Lair often throws, RMiss is always good to have in pocket and you could probably power it without Air if you feel that way, though Lair is pretty light on ranged foes so it's not super urgent. I'd grab this if you wanna do Orc first however. Regen gives you access to Necromancy and lets you buff it while you wait for Kiku piety (if you go that way), plus I just love Regen on Spriggans and it doubles as poor man's rPois.

Your spellcasting is a little low still perhaps, I like Confuse at 1 hunger when im coming into the Lair since you are likely to need it heavily soon (when dealing with high MR foes the few extra % warding power from Confuse vs EH really helps). Around this point (Temple) I also like to grab 1 or 2 Ice Magic, which is probably cheaper than more Hexes to grab another pip or so of EH power.

[Berder]

Zin is a pain in the butt for hexers because there are so many things he doesn't let you enslave. No demons, no undead, nothing chaotic. Also you can't attack allies, which is very often necessary if you've enslaved things and then need to get rid of them. And recite is noisy and conflicts with spellcasting. I would not recommend a hexer of zin, and I've tried it.

[1010011010]

For gods - dithmenos is nice.

I feel Dith is sub par for an enchanter stabber build, She will boost stealth (something you will already train for stabbing) and repeat your spells (at reduced power which sometimes enslaves your targets). Shadow step is good but needs a amulet of faith for it to be spammable. Shadow form is also good. Dith will make you better at pre-emptive stabbing, but SpEn do it so well, why do you need a god to help?

Kik and Ash are better IMO. I tried Zin quite a while ago but recite didn't do as much as I hoped.

Mephitic Cloud is an excellent addition to your spell list, as it allows you to confuse more kinds of monsters, and some of them much more easily. Prior to the changes in the book of maledictions, I felt this was the most useful spell to find early on. I don't know if I still feel that way now that Dazzling Spray is in the starting book.

Mephitic cloud is loud, keep in mind.

[Berder]

For gods - dithmenos is nice.

I feel Dith is sub par for an enchanter stabber build, She will boost stealth (something you will already train for stabbing) and repeat your spells (at reduced power which sometimes enslaves your targets). Shadow step is good but needs a amulet of faith for it to be spammable. Shadow form is also good. Dith will make you better at pre-emptive stabbing, but SpEn do it so well, why do you need a god to help?

First, dithmenos reduces enemy accuracy, and since your primary defense is evasion, that really helps.
Second, dithmenos adds stealth. Sure, you were already stealthy, but now you're more stealthy. That's good. Helps you sneak up on things, helps you not get attacked when you don't want to be attacked.
Third, shadow step might not be spammable all the time, but you can use it whenever you actually need it. On my Spen^Dith run, I used shadow step to get adjacent to TRJ and stab him. I also used shadow step to get to the orb - stepping to and stabbing orbs of fire and aliches in my way.
Fourth, dith boosts not only spells, but also melee and ranged attacks. At max piety shadow mimic triggers 50% of the time, which is a huge bonus to damage as well as spells. You want to keep your dith piety as high as possible most of the time instead of spending it, to maximize shadow mimic.

And shadow form isn't super useful but sometimes it's nice to have.

[Sar]

Shadow mimic attacks an enemy with a +0 brandless version of a weapon you are using. I am not sure if any stabbing modifiers affect that, but in a plain fight your shadow's dagger/quick blade/rapier won't do much.

Shadow GSC, OTOH, is pretty nice, and so are shadow rocks.

[and into]

I don't think Dith is terrible for a SpEn, or for an enchanter in general, but I'd specifically look to worship a god that helps you out against situations and enemies that you have difficulty solving/killing with hexes and stabbing. For the most part, Dith makes an enchanter better at handling situations that they are already well suited to handling.

[damiac]

Ash is always a good choice on a SpEn. He'll make it a lot easier to branch into conjurations and such, and the boosts to your physical skills will obviously be handy.

[XuaXua]

Ashenzari is how I beat my only (offline) SpEn, and works well if you aren't swapping enhancer staves.

[Berder]

With strong melee skill and a flat damage brand, you don't actually need a secondary source of damage. But if you do get one, e.g. if you cast iron shot, shadow mimic helps you out with that.

  Code:

<halberd> !lg greatplayers spen / won s=god o=%
<Sequell> 143/3294 games for greatplayers (spen): 1/2x Ru [50.00%], 8/19x Lugonu [42.11%], 11/44x Zin [25.00%], 3/13x Gozag [23.08%], 10/45x Dithmenos [22.22%], 5/28x Makhleb [17.86%], 7/40x Jiyva [17.50%], 24/154x Ashenzari [15.58%], 25/205x Okawaru [12.20%], 25/206x Kikubaaqudgha [12.14%], 1/9x Cheibriados [11.11%], 1/9x Fedhas [11.11%], 12/153x Nemelex Xobeh [7.84%], 1/20x Vehumet [5.00%], 2/65x Sif Muna...

Dithmenos has a very strong showing, but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot. Guaranteed distortion brand is a help. Although that result is certainly skewed by the fact that lugonu is hard to pick up on a low xl character. I'm also surprised by how high Zin placed.

[XuaXua]

  Code:

<halberd> !lg greatplayers spen / won s=god o=%
<Sequell> 143/3294 games for greatplayers (spen):
1/2x Ru [50.00%],
8/19x Lugonu [42.11%],
11/44x Zin [25.00%],
3/13x Gozag [23.08%],
10/45x Dithmenos [22.22%],
5/28x Makhleb [17.86%],
7/40x Jiyva [17.50%],
24/154x Ashenzari [15.58%],
25/205x Okawaru [12.20%],
25/206x Kikubaaqudgha [12.14%],
1/9x Cheibriados [11.11%],
1/9x Fedhas [11.11%],
12/153x Nemelex Xobeh [7.84%],
1/20x Vehumet [5.00%],
2/65x Sif Muna...

Dithmenos has a strong showing, but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot.

That % is only out of 19 tries for Lugonu (probably because SpAK is how most start with Lugonu). It's almost like saying Ru is the best showing (because of the 50%, but that's only out of 2 games). With only 9 tries, I wouldn't say NOT to try Chei... anyway, balancing it out, I'd lean towards Zin and Dith.

[Berder]

That % is only out of 19 tries for Lugonu (probably because SpAK is how most start with Lugonu). It's almost like saying Ru is the best showing (because of the 50%, but that's only out of 2 games).

8/19 is enough to tell you it's probably better than 25% winrate. Also, lugonu places high with the gods for all players not just greaterplayers:

  Code:

<halberd> !lg * spen / won s=god o=%
<Sequell> 527/86471 games for * (spen): 21/176x Jiyva [11.93%], 11/98x Lugonu [11.22%], 1/10x Trog [10.00%], 2/29x Ru [6.90%], 22/331x Zin [6.65%], 1/17x The Shining One [5.88%], 132/4269x Ashenzari [3.09%], 69/2373x Dithmenos [2.91%], 74/2641x Kikubaaqudgha [2.80%], 6/236x Gozag [2.54%], 98/4449x Okawaru [2.20%], 1/51x Cheibriados [1.96%], 4/220x Fedhas [1.82%], 47/3210x Nemelex Xobeh [1.46%], 13/910x Sif ...

A thought, though, is that Zin and TSO may be placing artificially high because they are often taken as endgame gods.

[danr]

Hmm, lots to think about. I'd probably avoid kiku because I probably would forget to use corpses etc. Might try Dith just because I haven't before.

It's interesting to see the allplayers numbers, and specifically how common different ones are. A few are off the charts: Oka (4,449) Ash (4,269), Nem (3,210), Kiku (2,641), and Dith (2,373). All others are just a few hundred except maybe Sif (910).

I'm drawn to either Oka (very familiar, easy to use) or Dith (sounds cool and useful, and is new to the game since I last played). After that maybe Ash, although his perks sound kind of boring - as I understand it, you have to wear cursed stuff, and you get to move skill points around (but with some penalty, which would probably make me not use it because I'll feel like I'm throwing XP away.)

[crate]

but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot.

it's harder to die worshipping a particular god if you can't take your god at the temple
why do you think jiyva and tso dominate these winrate lists? (since you've eliminated AK, you've pushed lugonu to the same spot)

your stats actually support zin !

(I do think lugonu is good for spen but kiku is the only realistic choice imo if your only concern is winning.)

[Berder]

but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot.

it's harder to die worshipping a particular god if you can't take your god at the temple
why do you think jiyva and tso dominate these winrate lists? (since you've eliminated AK, you've pushed lugonu to the same spot)

your stats actually support zin !

(I do think lugonu is good for spen but kiku is the only realistic choice imo if your only concern is winning.)

Why didn't you quote the REST of what I said...

Dithmenos has a very strong showing, but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot. Guaranteed distortion brand is a help. Although that result is certainly skewed by the fact that lugonu is hard to pick up on a low xl character. I'm also surprised by how high Zin placed.

Honestly. I said the exact same thing you're criticizing me for not saying, two sentences after you quoted me.

[1010011010]

Some Stats

Dithmenos has a very strong showing, but it looks like lugonu might be your best shot. Guaranteed distortion brand is a help. Although that result is certainly skewed by the fact that lugonu is hard to pick up on a low xl character. I'm also surprised by how high Zin placed.

Let's rearrange that. If I interpret Berders data correctly:
Here is the same data listed to show the most popular end game gods for SpEn by "greatplayers".

  Code:

25/206x Kikubaaqudgha [12.14%]
25/205x Okawaru [12.20%]
24/154x Ashenzari [15.58%]
12/153x Nemelex Xobeh [7.84%]
2/65x Sif Muna
10/45x Dithmenos [22.22%]
11/44x Zin [25.00%]
7/40x Jiyva [17.50%]
5/28x Makhleb [17.86%]
1/20x Vehumet [5.00%]
8/19x Lugonu [42.11%]
3/13x Gozag [23.08%]
1/9x Cheibriados [11.11%]
1/9x Fedhas [11.11%]
1/2x Ru [50.00%]
...

Some obvious faces at the top Dith coming in at 6th, which is good-decent. However it's important to know your sample, these are people who have played at least one of reach species and class before, I so assume quite experienced, they may avoid one god because they've done that already, or want to try something zany. I suspect people wanted to try out the newer gods or whatever, more confident players probably went for, say, Mahkleb over Kik bringing Kik's percentage down, people play for fun over win percentage *gasp*. All in all the data is mostly fuzzy, but if anything can be pulled out of it, it'll be popularity.

Edit: forgot to say Lugonu is very good if you get corrupted temple.

[basil]

Berder, you're using percentages, which are often shit for demonstrating which option out of XYZ is better. On top of that, even with your disclaimer you fail to grant proper weight to the XL difference (average winning greatplayer spen Kikuite begins worship at xl7.64; 13.5 for Lugonu), as well as the location of worship, since all of those Lucyite spens were played by people good enough to survive the Abyss and get to an altar.

[Berder]

Berder, you're using percentages, which are often shit for demonstrating which option out of XYZ is better. On top of that, even with your disclaimer you fail to grant proper weight to the XL difference (average winning greatplayer spen Kikuite begins worship at xl7.64; 13.5 for Lugonu), as well as the location of worship, since all of those Lucyite spens were played by people good enough to survive the Abyss and get to an altar.

Okay, that's not necessarily true, sometimes there are Lugonu altars in the corrupted temple. Anyway, I already said this is a factor and a reason why Lugonu isn't as good as the stats show, before anybody else brought it up.

Percentages are fine to get an approximation, as long as you are aware of what kind of a sample size is enough to show a difference (some people have silly notions about this - a relatively small sample size is just fine if the difference is large enough) and as long as you are aware of possible confounding factors, such as the fact I brought up that Lugonu may be taken later.

Lugonu gives you disto brand though which is very strong, so it is a good option if you're heading into zot and wondering what you're going to do about orbs of fire. And if you do happen to find a Lugonu altar it should be pretty good for a spen.

[basil]

Berder, you're using percentages, which are often shit for demonstrating which option out of XYZ is better. On top of that, even with your disclaimer you fail to grant proper weight to the XL difference (average winning greatplayer spen Kikuite begins worship at xl7.64; 13.5 for Lugonu), as well as the location of worship, since all of those Lucyite spens were played by people good enough to survive the Abyss and get to an altar.

Okay, that's not necessarily true, sometimes there are Lugonu altars in the corrupted temple. Anyway, I already said this is a factor and a reason why Lugonu isn't as good as the stats show, before anybody else brought it up.

8 milestones for greatplayers (spen lucy won god.worship): 7x Abyss, Abyss:2
You mention that it could "skew" Lugonu's percentage, but you don't state that it could skew the results sufficiently that datum worthless. Which I think it does.

Percentages are fine to get an approximation, as long as you are aware of what kind of a sample size is enough to show a difference (some people have silly notions about this - a relatively small sample size is just fine if the difference is large enough) and as long as you are aware of possible confounding factors, such as the fact I brought up that Lugonu may be taken later.

Percentages are also extremely susceptible to distortion, such that it is near-impossible to tell which arbitrary percentage is accurate or bogus unless you bring in external facts, which sort of renders the percentage pointless. For example: In recent versions, DD and Ce are the races with the two highest winrates across all accounts. That seems reasonable. But Gh is third, and it's not because Gh is just that good.


Hm, also I forgot to give danr advice: Go Kiku, get rmsl regen spectral and maybe blink.

[Berder]

Percentages are also extremely susceptible to distortion, such that it is near-impossible to tell which arbitrary percentage is accurate or bogus unless you bring in external facts, which sort of renders the percentage pointless. For example: In recent versions, DD and Ce are the races with the two highest winrates across all accounts. That seems reasonable. But Gh is third, and it's not because Gh is just that good.

That can be accounted for by looking at greatplayers, which eliminates some of the bias where better players play ghouls more often.

  Code:

<halberd> !lg greatplayers playable recent / won s=crace o=%
<Sequell> 2413/25882 games for greatplayers (playable recent): 116/623x Gargoyle [18.62%], 83/455x Centaur [18.24%], 86/476x Deep Dwarf [18.07%], 87/508x Ghoul [17.13%], 111/780x Draconian [14.23%], 116/893x Merfolk [12.99%], 55/461x Felid [11.93%], 69/615x Halfling [11.22%], 62/554x Naga [11.19%], 108/1049x Ogre [10.30%], 63/646x Vampire [9.75%], 108/1117x Human [9.67%], 84/885x Demigod [9.49%], 86/936x
<Sequell> Troll [9.19%], 62/675x Spriggan [9.19%], 111/1234x Formicid [9.00%], 70/786x Kobold [8.91%], 92/1038x Hill Orc [8.86%], 83/947x Tengu [8.76%], 117/1375x Minotaur [8.51%], 206/2680x Demonspawn [7.69%], 74/995x Deep Elf [7.44%], 69/968x High Elf [7.13%], 72/1131x Mummy [6.37%], 139/2454x Vine Stalker [5.66%], 84/1601x Octopode [5.25%]

But it does seem ghouls are pretty good. What alternative explanation would you suggest?

[DrKe]

Percentages are also extremely susceptible to distortion, such that it is near-impossible to tell which arbitrary percentage is accurate or bogus unless you bring in external facts, which sort of renders the percentage pointless. For example: In recent versions, DD and Ce are the races with the two highest winrates across all accounts. That seems reasonable. But Gh is third, and it's not because Gh is just that good.

That can be accounted for by looking at greatplayers, which eliminates some of the bias where better players play ghouls more often.

  Code:

<halberd> !lg greatplayers playable recent / won s=crace o=%
<Sequell> 2413/25882 games for greatplayers (playable recent): 116/623x Gargoyle [18.62%], 83/455x Centaur [18.24%], 86/476x Deep Dwarf [18.07%], 87/508x Ghoul [17.13%], 111/780x Draconian [14.23%], 116/893x Merfolk [12.99%], 55/461x Felid [11.93%], 69/615x Halfling [11.22%], 62/554x Naga [11.19%], 108/1049x Ogre [10.30%], 63/646x Vampire [9.75%], 108/1117x Human [9.67%], 84/885x Demigod [9.49%], 86/936x
<Sequell> Troll [9.19%], 62/675x Spriggan [9.19%], 111/1234x Formicid [9.00%], 70/786x Kobold [8.91%], 92/1038x Hill Orc [8.86%], 83/947x Tengu [8.76%], 117/1375x Minotaur [8.51%], 206/2680x Demonspawn [7.69%], 74/995x Deep Elf [7.44%], 69/968x High Elf [7.13%], 72/1131x Mummy [6.37%], 139/2454x Vine Stalker [5.66%], 84/1601x Octopode [5.25%]

But it does seem ghouls are pretty good. What alternative explanation would you suggest?

you were deemed unworthy by the lord of fire

[basil]

But it does seem ghouls are pretty good. What alternative explanation would you suggest?

I became the greaterghoul.

If you want to continue this discussion, take it to PMs I guess; I don't want to continue derailing danr's thread.

[Berder]

All I have to say is this, and I'm done.

  Code:

<halberd> !lg greatplayers playable recent name!=basil / won s=crace o=%
<Sequell> 2356/25772 games for greatplayers (playable recent name!=basil): 116/623x Gargoyle [18.62%], 83/454x Centaur [18.28%], 86/476x Deep Dwarf [18.07%], 110/779x Draconian [14.12%], 66/476x Ghoul [13.87%], 116/893x Merfolk [12.99%], 55/461x Felid [11.93%], 69/614x Halfling [11.24%], 61/553x Naga [11.03%], 63/644x Vampire [9.78%], 100/1038x Ogre [9.63%], 102/1105x Human [9.23%], 81/878x Demigod
<Sequell> [9.23%], 62/675x Spriggan [9.19%], 85/935x Troll [9.09%], 111/1232x Formicid [9.01%], 70/786x Kobold [8.91%], 83/947x Tengu [8.76%], 90/1036x Hill Orc [8.69%], 114/1367x Minotaur [8.34%], 202/2672x Demonspawn [7.56%], 74/995x Deep Elf [7.44%], 68/967x High Elf [7.03%], 71/1118x Mummy [6.35%], 134/2448x Vine Stalker [5.47%], 84/1600x Octopode [5.25%]

[XuaXua]

Berder, you're using percentages, which are often shit {...} On top of that, even with your disclaimer you fail to grant proper weight {...}

I managed to say this right below Berder's post without making it sound insulting; I'm not surprised it's come this.

[and into]

Let's not derail. I expect danr would mention if Lugonu were available as a god choice, for instance. Keep the tangents and the bickering to CYC, please. Thank you!

******

Back on topic:

I was happy with my Zin stabbers (I've played a few) but once I thought about it, I realized I hadn't played a spriggan enchanter of Zin before. A species as good at avoiding trouble as a spriggan might not appreciate imprison and sanctuary as much as I did in the games I remember.

Now, something that I'm curious about, though, is whether spectral weapon would be worthwhile on danr's character. I would have thought not, but I might be missing something, as I haven't played around with spectral weapon all that much.

[Siegurt]

Spectral weapon can provide distraction stabs (Like any summon) which isn't terrible if you lack other choices for stabbing, but that's not awesome, really.

I still think Ru (Providing free confusion stabs) isn't a bad choice.

[Lyrick]

Recite into zinstab!

[and into]

I still think Ru (Providing free confusion stabs) isn't a bad choice.

I imagine Ru would work well, also, but I haven't played an enchanter (any species) of Ru yet.

[Sandman25]

Enchanter was first background I tried when going for Ru win because giving up a hand is a significant sacrifice and En does not use 2h weapon usually anyway. Also it's easy to sacrifice armour. Ru's abilities are very good for En, an escape from waked monster and a way to kill crowds (most En can't melee crowds).

[danr]

Wow. The character is long since dead - not long after this post actually. Can't even remember what I took.

Yeah, Lugonu was not an option though.

A lot of people are saying Kiku - can you explain why? Forgive me if someone already did.

[nago]

Kiku is strong. Kiku is good for any char (except Be and thing like that).
For an en, you get quickly and cheaply tools to dispose anything who wake up/isn't susceptible to your hexes.
Virtually, kiku's gift (in form of pain brand, spells and corpses ) are more than enough to easily murder anything until you meet oof (and they can still be killed by undead servant, you need to spam a lot of aa through)