Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 20:22

Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

-I'm a complete bob at this game!
-Most of my characters die between D:1 and Lair:X!
-This one has miracoulusly survived so far!
-Cleared Lair and Orc.
-I just cleared the swamp and got my first rune ever. Ever. SO HAPPY.
-I don't want this guy to die, I need your advice on what to do next! Maybe this time, I could actually win this game!

++Updato: Balind found the GOSSAMER RUNE OF ZOT!++ (Spider's nest was a cake walk compared to swamp tbh)

Balin.txt
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Last edited by Winwons on Thursday, 10th July 2014, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 20:36

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-1374-gca99efe (tiles) character file.

Balin the Bludgeoner (Deep Dwarf Fighter)          Turns: 28634, Time: 02:02:16

HP 110/151 (152) AC 41     Str 35      XL: 16   Next: 42%
MP  14/14        EV 13     Int  8      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 1749        SH 17     Dex 17      Spells:  0 memorised, 15 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     X - +6,+5 demon whip of Annoyance {drain, +Inv rC- SInv Stlth--}
rCold  x . .     Clarity  .     k - +7 crystal plate armour of the Alphagorgon {Dex+5 Int+1}
rNeg   + + .     rCorr    .     s - +2 shield {reflect}
rPois  +         rRot     .     p - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  .         Spirit   .     v - +2 cloak
SustAb .         Warding  +     L - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
Gourm  .                        D - brooch of Shielding {Ward rN+ AC+4 EV+4}
MR     +++..                    T - ring of Xom's Fair Game {rPois MR+ Str+3 Int-2 SInv}
                                o - +5 ring of strength

@: non-regenerating, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: damage resistance, recharge devices, fire resistance 1, life protection 1,
sense surroundings 2, slow healing 3, slow metabolism 2
a: Device Recharging, Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms,
Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 1/15 runes: decaying


You are in the Ecumenical Temple.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 31 of its levels.

You have collected 3063 gold pieces.
You have spent 1314 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 N - a +6,+4 executioner's axe of electrocution
 X - the +6,+5 demon whip of Annoyance (weapon) {drain, +Inv rC- SInv Stlth--}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
   
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you turn invisible.
   It makes you much less stealthy.
Missiles
 B - 2 poisoned javelins (quivered)
 P - 6 steel javelins
 S - 6 silver javelins
Armour
 k - the +7 crystal plate armour of the Alphagorgon (worn) {Dex+5 Int+1}
   (You acquired it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
 p - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 s - a +2 shield of reflection (worn)
 v - a +2 cloak (worn)
 L - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of heal wounds (5)
 r - a wand of disintegration (8)
 E - a wand of polymorph
 I - a wand of enslavement {zapped: 1}
 K - a wand of digging {zapped: 1}
 R - a wand of invisibility
 U - a wand of digging
 Z - a wand of fireball {zapped: 1}
Comestibles
 b - 2 slices of pizza
 f - 11 bread rations
 l - 3 meat rations
 x - 61 fruits
Scrolls
 g - 5 scrolls of identify
 h - 9 scrolls of teleportation
 j - 6 scrolls of fog
 m - 17 scrolls of remove curse
 n - a scroll of summoning
 q - 5 scrolls of blinking
 z - 3 scrolls of fear
 A - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 G - a scroll of brand weapon
Jewellery
 a - the ring "Cowat" {rC+ Str+3 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
 e - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 o - a +5 ring of strength (left hand)
 u - a ring of protection from cold
 D - the brooch of Shielding (around neck) {Ward rN+ AC+4 EV+4}
   (You found it on level 1 of the Swamp)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It may prevent the melee attacks of summoned creatures.
   It affects your AC (+4).
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 J - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 Q - a ring of protection from fire
 T - the ring of Xom's Fair Game (right hand) {rPois MR+ Str+3 Int-2 SInv}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (-2).
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 V - an uncursed ring of positive energy
Potions
 t - 3 potions of might
 w - 2 potions of agility
 C - 6 potions of curing
 M - 3 potions of restore abilities
 O - a potion of berserk rage
 W - 4 potions of brilliance
Miscellaneous
 c - an ornate deck of summonings {drawn: 9}
 i - a plain deck of cards
 F - a lantern of shadows
 H - a plain deck of cards
 Y - a plain deck of summonings {drawn: 2}
Rods
 y - a +8 rod of shadows (17/17)
   (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)


   Skills:
 + Level 12.3 Fighting
 * Level 8.7 Axes
 - Level 15.9 Maces & Flails
 * Level 6.3 Throwing
 + Level 12.3 Armour
 - Level 10.2 Dodging
 - Level 12.6 Shields
 + Level 11.6 Evocations


You have 15 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (13/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (0/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (5/5) Lair:6
 Spider (0/5) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:8     
Vaults: D:13-14     

Altars:
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Beogh

Shops:
D:11 }   D:13 ?   Orc:2 =   Orc:3 ?   Orc:4 [}**

Portals:
Hell: Lair:8

Annotations:
D:8 exclusion: oklob sapling
Lair:8 exclusion: 2 oklob plants


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can recharge devices by infusing magical energy.
You resist negative energy.
You passively map the area around you.
You do not heal naturally.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
You need consume almost no food.
This is way better to read !

I don't know if I would go for axes. Of course DD have a great apt, but you have a correct dwhip, and will probably find some better one later on, you already trained some M&F + shields, and reaching min delay with the exec axe (which is really great btw) requires Axes level 26...
That seems a bit too much.

M&F with shield are OK, you can even use an eveningstar if you find one.

I would wear the rC ring and drop the +5str one
Last edited by mopl on Thursday, 10th July 2014, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

For this message the author mopl has received thanks:
Winwons

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 20:37

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Yeah sry I fail at computers
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 20:41

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Winwons wrote:Yeah sry I fail at computers
Not a big deal, I just edited my message to add some more advice
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

For this message the author mopl has received thanks:
Winwons

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 21:09

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

mopl wrote:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-1374-gca99efe (tiles) character file.

Balin the Bludgeoner (Deep Dwarf Fighter)          Turns: 28634, Time: 02:02:16

HP 110/151 (152) AC 41     Str 35      XL: 16   Next: 42%
MP  14/14        EV 13     Int  8      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 1749        SH 17     Dex 17      Spells:  0 memorised, 15 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     X - +6,+5 demon whip of Annoyance {drain, +Inv rC- SInv Stlth--}
rCold  x . .     Clarity  .     k - +7 crystal plate armour of the Alphagorgon {Dex+5 Int+1}
rNeg   + + .     rCorr    .     s - +2 shield {reflect}
rPois  +         rRot     .     p - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  .         Spirit   .     v - +2 cloak
SustAb .         Warding  +     L - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
Gourm  .                        D - brooch of Shielding {Ward rN+ AC+4 EV+4}
MR     +++..                    T - ring of Xom's Fair Game {rPois MR+ Str+3 Int-2 SInv}
                                o - +5 ring of strength

@: non-regenerating, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: damage resistance, recharge devices, fire resistance 1, life protection 1,
sense surroundings 2, slow healing 3, slow metabolism 2
a: Device Recharging, Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms,
Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 1/15 runes: decaying


You are in the Ecumenical Temple.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 31 of its levels.

You have collected 3063 gold pieces.
You have spent 1314 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 N - a +6,+4 executioner's axe of electrocution
 X - the +6,+5 demon whip of Annoyance (weapon) {drain, +Inv rC- SInv Stlth--}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
   
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you turn invisible.
   It makes you much less stealthy.
Missiles
 B - 2 poisoned javelins (quivered)
 P - 6 steel javelins
 S - 6 silver javelins
Armour
 k - the +7 crystal plate armour of the Alphagorgon (worn) {Dex+5 Int+1}
   (You acquired it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
 p - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 s - a +2 shield of reflection (worn)
 v - a +2 cloak (worn)
 L - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of heal wounds (5)
 r - a wand of disintegration (8)
 E - a wand of polymorph
 I - a wand of enslavement {zapped: 1}
 K - a wand of digging {zapped: 1}
 R - a wand of invisibility
 U - a wand of digging
 Z - a wand of fireball {zapped: 1}
Comestibles
 b - 2 slices of pizza
 f - 11 bread rations
 l - 3 meat rations
 x - 61 fruits
Scrolls
 g - 5 scrolls of identify
 h - 9 scrolls of teleportation
 j - 6 scrolls of fog
 m - 17 scrolls of remove curse
 n - a scroll of summoning
 q - 5 scrolls of blinking
 z - 3 scrolls of fear
 A - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 G - a scroll of brand weapon
Jewellery
 a - the ring "Cowat" {rC+ Str+3 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
 e - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 o - a +5 ring of strength (left hand)
 u - a ring of protection from cold
 D - the brooch of Shielding (around neck) {Ward rN+ AC+4 EV+4}
   (You found it on level 1 of the Swamp)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It may prevent the melee attacks of summoned creatures.
   It affects your AC (+4).
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 J - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 Q - a ring of protection from fire
 T - the ring of Xom's Fair Game (right hand) {rPois MR+ Str+3 Int-2 SInv}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (-2).
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 V - an uncursed ring of positive energy
Potions
 t - 3 potions of might
 w - 2 potions of agility
 C - 6 potions of curing
 M - 3 potions of restore abilities
 O - a potion of berserk rage
 W - 4 potions of brilliance
Miscellaneous
 c - an ornate deck of summonings {drawn: 9}
 i - a plain deck of cards
 F - a lantern of shadows
 H - a plain deck of cards
 Y - a plain deck of summonings {drawn: 2}
Rods
 y - a +8 rod of shadows (17/17)
   (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)


   Skills:
 + Level 12.3 Fighting
 * Level 8.7 Axes
 - Level 15.9 Maces & Flails
 * Level 6.3 Throwing
 + Level 12.3 Armour
 - Level 10.2 Dodging
 - Level 12.6 Shields
 + Level 11.6 Evocations


You have 15 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (13/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (0/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (5/5) Lair:6
 Spider (0/5) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:8     
Vaults: D:13-14     

Altars:
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Beogh

Shops:
D:11 }   D:13 ?   Orc:2 =   Orc:3 ?   Orc:4 [}**

Portals:
Hell: Lair:8

Annotations:
D:8 exclusion: oklob sapling
Lair:8 exclusion: 2 oklob plants


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can recharge devices by infusing magical energy.
You resist negative energy.
You passively map the area around you.
You do not heal naturally.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
You need consume almost no food.
This is way better to read !

I don't know if I would go for axes. Of course DD have a great apt, but you have a correct dwhip, and will probably find some better one later on, you already trained some M&F + shields, and reaching min delay with the exec axe (which is really great btw) requires Axes level 26...
That seems a bit too much.

M&F with shield are OK, you can even use an eveningstar if you find one.

I would wear the rC ring and drop the +5str one


Yeah basically I was just thinking 'Oh baby, nice axe' and took it. But you're right training it to 26 is not worth it...
Which branch should I tackle next? I disvovered portals to Slime Pit, Elven Halls, Spider's Nest and Hell.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 21:10

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

I have found that the best way to survive with such a character is to not get killed.

I have not yet succeeded with this philosophy.

Of actual advice, I don't trust decks anymore, so I'd drop them. That's probably really bad advice.

Spider's Nest is always a fun place, but you can probably complete D:15 first.
Last edited by XuaXua on Thursday, 10th July 2014, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 21:12

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

XuaXua wrote:I have found that the best way to survive with such a character is to not get killed.

I have not yet succeeded with this philosophy.

Of actual advice, I don't trust decks anymore, so I'd drop them. That's probably really bad advice.

Spider's Nest is always a fun place.


The summoning decks actually proved kinda useful on Swamp: 5
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 21:13

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Winwons wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Of actual advice, I don't trust decks anymore, so I'd drop them. That's probably really bad advice.



The summoning decks actually proved kinda useful on Swamp: 5


Relevant part emboldened. Tackle the rest of D before Spider's Nest, or at least Nest 1-4. Nest 5 is usually filled with pain.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

For this message the author XuaXua has received thanks:
Winwons

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 22:08

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

I found the vault entrance on D:14 and the entrance to te dephts. I need one more rune, what do you recommend: Slime or Vaults?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5300

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 23:02

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Slime is generally considered part of extended and a very dangerous choice for your third rune. The third run is generally always vaults, although a few times I've gotten the abyssal rune instead. Note that the abyss has gotten slightly nastier lately, and so that might be even less of an alternative these days. You'd generally want very high regeneration for abyss to be an option, and you're a deep dwarf, so I don't think there's enough piety for regeneration to be worth it. Abyss would probably wear down your healing quite a lot. Just do vaults as the standard 3rd rune.

Note that the way to do vaults is to clear vaults 1-4. Do NOT enter vaults:5. There is a large welcoming party there waiting for you, and the level is generally packed with powerful monsters. After clearing vaults:4, clear depths, and optionally clear the crypt and elf (elf requires MR+++ to not get banished to the abyss). With all of that experience, go back and clear vault:5. There's a bunch of thread with vault:5 advice, if you need details, look for one or ask here again and we can either link one or write it up again. Vaults:5 is definitely one of the hardest levels in the game, by the way. This in no way is meant to imply you should avoid it and do slime instead, however. Do vaults.

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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 143

Joined: Friday, 15th March 2013, 23:33

Post Thursday, 10th July 2014, 23:48

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

tasonir wrote:Slime is generally considered part of extended and a very dangerous choice for your third rune. The third run is generally always vaults, although a few times I've gotten the abyssal rune instead. Note that the abyss has gotten slightly nastier lately, and so that might be even less of an alternative these days. You'd generally want very high regeneration for abyss to be an option, and you're a deep dwarf, so I don't think there's enough piety for regeneration to be worth it. Abyss would probably wear down your healing quite a lot. Just do vaults as the standard 3rd rune.

Note that the way to do vaults is to clear vaults 1-4. Do NOT enter vaults:5. There is a large welcoming party there waiting for you, and the level is generally packed with powerful monsters. After clearing vaults:4, clear depths, and optionally clear the crypt and elf (elf requires MR+++ to not get banished to the abyss). With all of that experience, go back and clear vault:5. There's a bunch of thread with vault:5 advice, if you need details, look for one or ask here again and we can either link one or write it up again. Vaults:5 is definitely one of the hardest levels in the game, by the way. This in no way is meant to imply you should avoid it and do slime instead, however. Do vaults.


I did Slime as the third rune in one of my more recent games on the premise that it would be no harder than Vaults:5 (or Abyss) and I think I was right. Certainly with resist corrosion there are *two* monsters presenting real damage threats (enormous slimes do not count) one of which is the boss, and I guess some sources of paralysis/confusion of varying degrees of avoidability. The RJ fight might be harder than any single encounter in Vaults:5, but there's just the one. Now obviously this depends on the character and I do in fact usually get the silver rune but I'm not convinced it's that obvious a choice anymore. Am I way off base here good players?

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 18:19

Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 00:20

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

I cleared Vault 1-4, Elves and went back for Vault 5 but died there... I used every fucking ability and item at my disposal but there were jus too many of them... R.I.P. Balin, you were my best character...

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 00:30

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Uh Slime is a perfectly fine 3rd rune if you have decent melee, rCorr and rC. You go into one of the middle corridors, you buff the fuck out of your character and hold Tab for a bit, and then you have the rune!
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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 182

Joined: Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 10:18

Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 00:36

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

i think vault is dangerous because they close the stairs.. if u dont have powerful abilities which can safely kill the guardians via smite targetting etc i would also avoid it. did vaults 5 very late with my character. slime had very low monster density on my running game but i think it can be much worse

try a caster as next char imo. hard to get it running, but later on its easier (at least for me). i also dont like trog :P in vaults there are dozens of yaktaur crossbow freaks etc, id like to have repel missiles + shield there for sure.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 01:00

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Stair locking does not matter much if you don't stairdance V:5, also you don't need rMsl on a goddamn Berserker.

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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 287

Joined: Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 01:29

Location: NJ, USA

Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 01:25

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:i think vault is dangerous because they close the stairs.. if u dont have powerful abilities which can safely kill the guardians via smite targetting etc i would also avoid it. did vaults 5 very late with my character. slime had very low monster density on my running game but i think it can be much worse

try a caster as next char imo. hard to get it running, but later on its easier (at least for me). i also dont like trog :P in vaults there are dozens of yaktaur crossbow freaks etc, id like to have repel missiles + shield there for sure.

There are a lot of great ways to defeat the welcoming V:5 welcoming committee without stair dancing:
1. scroll of fear breaks them up
2. scroll of immolation + scroll of blinking + ranged attack = lots of dead vaultdudes
3. scroll of magic mapping + control teleport + teleport to get to a better place to fight
and lots more!
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 11th July 2014, 01:42

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

yea sure for an experienced player. but going down there the first time, it can easily kill you. scroll of fear will only help some turns but wont help in any way if u dont have the equipment to beat those guys.

ranged attack has to be strong enough to actually kill one before they reach u, or u scroll will timeout/u explode urself

control teleport.. u dont have this spell/ring very often around lvl 16-18, and as berserker u only have the ring option

trog is just my personal preference, the least interesting god. not a weak one for sure

while i admit that i stairdance alot (u consider this cheating or what? ;)) i primarily meant the inability to escape this dungeon (slime is easy to flee). and teleporting randomly in V5 with a character under lvl 20 can go wrong too and is gambling imo

i know i would fail vault 5 with a pure fighter most of the time too(below 20), simply not my playstyle. on any roguelike i prefer casters even when im inexperienced

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 20:02

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

If you're entering vault:5 at level 16-18 (or below 20 as you said the second time) something is very, very wrong (unless you're speedrunning or following extreme conducts). You should be around level 23 at least, and probably 24/25. I've had characters find a potion of exp, get banished to the abyss, and even though I exited the abyss as quickly as possible, I was still level 27 by the time I got back to vaults:5. Clear depths before you go to vaults:5. Elf and crypt are optional, but if you are going to clear them on your run, I'd do them before vaults:5 also.

Stairdancing is not cheating - most people would consider it the opposite of cheating. Cheating is doing something very strong (by breaking a rule), stairdancing in this case is considered very weak, and likely to get yourself killed.

I'm a member of the minority in that I still like stairdancing V:5, but with the understanding that you need to be very watchful for vault wardens. If one is around and you can't reach him, you need to revert to a teleport/blink/fear strategy, so most people just start with that rather than stairdancing.

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 21:02

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:yea sure for an experienced player. but going down there the first time, it can easily kill you. scroll of fear will only help some turns but wont help in any way if u dont have the equipment to beat those guys.

Except you shouldn't go to V:5 unless you have "the equipment to beat those guys". And as tasonir said, this isn't likely to be at level 16-18.

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:ranged attack has to be strong enough to actually kill one before they reach u, or u scroll will timeout/u explode urself

control teleport.. u dont have this spell/ring very often around lvl 16-18, and as berserker u only have the ring option

Sure these methods won't work for everyone, but they work. And this was why I said, "and lots more!", since there are other ways (like just blinking and running for the corridors), that aren't as strong but often work. And again, unless you are speedrunning or doing some challenge, why are you on V:5 so early?

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:while i admit that i stairdance alot (u consider this cheating or what? ;)) i primarily meant the inability to escape this dungeon (slime is easy to flee). and teleporting randomly in V5 with a character under lvl 20 can go wrong too and is gambling imo

Like tasonir, I still stairdance V:5 occasionally (no wardens, high AC/EV and high HP), so no I don't consider it cheating, just less than ideal. Random tele is ALWAYS a gamble, but should not be too much of an issue if you are actually doing V:5 when you should be (not when your level <20), and you do it early enough (this is particularly true in a dangerous place like V:5)
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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 21:08

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

tasonir wrote:Slime is generally considered part of extended and a very dangerous choice for your third rune. The third run is generally always vaults, although a few times I've gotten the abyssal rune instead. Note that the abyss has gotten slightly nastier lately, and so that might be even less of an alternative these days. You'd generally want very high regeneration for abyss to be an option, and you're a deep dwarf, so I don't think there's enough piety for regeneration to be worth it. Abyss would probably wear down your healing quite a lot. Just do vaults as the standard 3rd rune.

Note that the way to do vaults is to clear vaults 1-4. Do NOT enter vaults:5. There is a large welcoming party there waiting for you, and the level is generally packed with powerful monsters. After clearing vaults:4, clear depths, and optionally clear the crypt and elf (elf requires MR+++ to not get banished to the abyss). With all of that experience, go back and clear vault:5. There's a bunch of thread with vault:5 advice, if you need details, look for one or ask here again and we can either link one or write it up again. Vaults:5 is definitely one of the hardest levels in the game, by the way. This in no way is meant to imply you should avoid it and do slime instead, however. Do vaults.


I wouldn't necessarily agree that the silver rune should be the default 3rd rune. I have had a number of characters have an easier time in the Abyss or Slime than V:5. Also with certain builds I could imagine that Tomb may even be okay as a 3rd (though I can't personally back this up.)
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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 21:42

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

V5 for third rune used to be pretty standard, and for good reason: There wasn't anything there that was particularly harder than the hardest stuff showing up on D25/26/27. The layout and environmental hazards/factors were the same as what you are used to. And your usual tools (like ?blinking, cTele in general) and resistances—and thus ideal equipment set up—were basically the same between late dungeon and Vaults:5. So even if some characters on paper looked better equipped for Slime or Abyss, if a new player was asking, "What order?", recommending Vaults for third rune was nearly always good advice.

That changed with the addition of Wardens/Convokers/Sentinels. Getting Wardens right off the bat is really bad, sure, but honestly convokers and sentinels on V:5 are really scary throughout, unless you have enough MR to neutralize the latter's Mark hex. Add to that the (fairly) recent changes in layout, which opened up the vaults to the corridors in multiple places, and V:5 really is notably more dangerous than it was back in 0.11/0.12 or whatever. Having lots of ?blinking and/or cTele makes me feel a bit safer, of course, but I still find myself putting V5 off, if I can. Accordingly, I don't think "V:5 should be your third rune" is the best, or even a good, answer in a lot of cases.
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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 22:25

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

and into wrote:convokers and sentinels on V:5 are really scary throughout, unless you have enough MR to neutralize the latter's Mark hex.


As an aside, 0 skill curare and the new potions of cancellation seem like pretty handy solutions for both of these problems and a good part of the V:5 tool kit.

e: otherwise you're obviously right on. The third rune in 0.15 is a question of what consumables/equipment you get, and it helps to stay flexible.

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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 23:44

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

archaeo wrote:
and into wrote:convokers and sentinels on V:5 are really scary throughout, unless you have enough MR to neutralize the latter's Mark hex.


As an aside, 0 skill curare and the new potions of cancellation seem like pretty handy solutions for both of these problems and a good part of the V:5 tool kit.


Oh yeah, for sure—and that's much more useful practical advice, obviously. Silence (though less available/common) is extremely good there, too, of course.
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Post Tuesday, 15th July 2014, 00:14

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

nilsbloodaxe wrote:I wouldn't necessarily agree that the silver rune should be the default 3rd rune. I have had a number of characters have an easier time in the Abyss or Slime than V:5. Also with certain builds I could imagine that Tomb may even be okay as a 3rd (though I can't personally back this up.)

If you pick Kiku as your god, Tomb is the easiest 3rd rune. Go Kiku.

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Post Tuesday, 15th July 2014, 00:25

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

Fair enough - and_into makes some good points, perhaps vaults:5 should be less of an automatic choice for the third rune. I still go there by habit, and I haven't died on it in a long time, so I'll probably stick with it. That said if you have rCorr for slime, kiku for tomb, etc...There are other options. I do kind of like the abyss option with rMut, too. I have been banished there prior to vaults:5 a few times and survived ~2k turns without much trouble. Granted that's just abyss:1, but I probably could have done abyss:3 as well.

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Post Tuesday, 15th July 2014, 10:53

Re: Deep Dwarf Fighter going for first win...

My 2 cents on the other options (V5 was already covered really well).

Slime: a few hundreds games ago TRJ was one of the most scary encounters for me. As already advised if you have rCorr and fight it in central corridor + buff yourself + spam summons (butterflies abovve all) to fill the squares around TRJ and prevent too many slimes from generating then it's gonna be quite easy.

Tomb: Kiku is of course great but you still need to know how to deal with sphinx party, smiting, summonings and avoid too much noise on Tomb3. Apart from annoying rot and stat drain it's really a big xp bag if you know what you are doing. I'm sure you can find some post with advices on the forum.

Abyss: If you aren't just running for the exit you are probably going to need to kill some stuff and unpleasant surprises are always possible in the Abyss. And whatever you do don't go beyond abyss 3, not too long ago I went to abyss 5 with a very strong char and barely managed it, monsters were spawning at an incredible rate, almost faster than I could kill them. I don't know if it has been decreased in some recent release. Anyway I personally would never pick abyss for my third rune, tomb and slime are "predictable" but in the abyss very nasty surprises are always possible.

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