New Player: Advice Please


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Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 4

Joined: Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 03:10

Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 03:16

New Player: Advice Please

Hey guys, started playing last week. I've played a shit ton of Brogue, so I understand the bigger concepts of not getting fucked, but I'm sure there's some DCSS specific advice you could help me out with. Just skim this morgue file and hopefully some obvious bad character decisions will pop out that I'm not aware of. Also, check out that fucking Morningstar, thank you Trog!

I died because I didn't know what acid would do (tried to get into Slime), and tried to remove my sweet gear once I realized and then died in the process (whoops). So my AC was more like 35 before I died.

If nothing else, look at the skills I trained, is 20 overkill, is there a point of diminishing returns, and what should I have started training once I hit that number (if I did?). Also, what's the verdict on shields? I was digging mine (SH was 30+).

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0-2-gd2dacb9 (tiles) character file.

278483 Martin the Bludgeoner (level 19, -9/187 HPs)
             Began as a Minotaur Berserker on Apr 14, 2014.
             Was a High Priest of Trog.
             Splashed by an oklob plant's acid (25 damage)
             ... on Level 7 of the Lair of Beasts.
             The game lasted 04:08:00 (54712 turns).

Martin the Bludgeoner (Minotaur Berserker)         Turns: 54712, Time: 04:08:01

HP  -9/187       AC 29     Str 32      XL: 19   Next: 56%
MP   7/7         EV  8     Int  4      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 2794        SH  0     Dex 11      Spells:  0 memorised, 18 levels left

rFire  + + +     SeeInvis .     d - +3,+13 morningstar "Clojoull" {elec, rF++}
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +7 plate armour {rPois}
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  +         rCorr    .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  .         rRot     .     (no cloak)
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no boots)
Gourm  +         Stasis   .     t - amulet "Plog" {Gourm rF+ Str+3}
MR     +....                    n - +3 ring of protection
                                w - ring of flight

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Flight
}: 2/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled


You were on level 7 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worshipped Trog.
Trog was extremely pleased with you.
You were hungry.

You visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and saw 40 of its levels.

You collected 3515 gold pieces.
You spent 721 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 d - the +3,+13 morningstar "Clojoull" (weapon) {elec, rF++}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   Occasionally, upon striking a foe, it will discharge some electrical energy
   and cause terrible harm.
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
Armour
 a - a +7 plate armour of poison resistance (worn)
 g - a -3 large shield
 A - a -1 pair of boots
 J - a +0 cloak
 U - a -2 pair of gloves
Magical devices
 y - a wand of lightning (0)
Comestibles
 b - 5 grapes
 m - 5 chokos
 F - 4 apples
 V - 2 pears
Scrolls
 c - 2 scrolls of fog
 e - 9 scrolls of remove curse
 f - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon I
 o - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 r - 4 scrolls of identify
 x - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 O - a scroll of silence
Jewellery
 k - the ring "Zybicwoj" {Hunger rF+ Acc+2 Dam+3 Stlth+, unknown}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)   
   
   [ring of hunger]
   It affects your accuracy with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+2).
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 n - a +3 ring of protection (right hand)
 p - an uncursed ring of wizardry {unknown}
 s - an uncursed ring of ice
 t - the amulet "Plog" (around neck) {Gourm rF+ Str+3}
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [amulet of the gourmand]
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
 u - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 w - a ring of flight (left hand)
 z - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 D - an uncursed ring of protection from cold {unknown}
 E - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 K - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 M - a +2 ring of protection
 X - an uncursed amulet of clarity
Potions
 i - a potion of paralysis
 j - 2 potions of restore abilities
 q - 2 potions of cure mutation
 v - 2 potions of agility
 C - 2 potions of invisibility
 H - 5 potions of might
 R - a potion of resistance
 W - a potion of berserk rage
Miscellaneous
 l - a phial of floods


   Skills:
 + Level 20.5 Fighting
   Level 4.6 Axes
 + Level 20.7 Maces & Flails
   Level 3.2 Polearms
   Level 4.8 Staves
 + Level 20.3 Armour
 - Level 2.1 Dodging
   Level 18.2 Shields


You had 18 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (14/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:12
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:8          Shoals (5/5) Lair:4
  Snake (5/5) Lair:5        Slime (1/6) Lair:7     
Vaults: D:13-14     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Beogh

Shops:
D:11 ?   Orc:3 [   Orc:4 ?*[=   Elf:1 *

Annotations:
D:14 Sonja
Lair:7 exclusion: 6 oklob plants


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

You continue taking off your -1 pair of boots.
You finish taking off your -1 pair of boots.
You start removing your armour. You continue taking off your +0 cloak.
You finish taking off your +0 cloak.
You start removing your armour.
You continue taking off your -2 pair of gloves.
You finish taking off your -2 pair of gloves.
You climb upwards. Welcome back to the Lair of Beasts!
Level annotation: exclusion: 6 oklob plants
The oklob plant spits acid at you.
The splash of acid hits you! The acid burns!
The oklob plant spits acid at you.
The splash of acid hits you! The acid burns!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * x2
The oklob plant spits acid at you.
The splash of acid hits you! The acid burns!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * x2
The oklob plant spits acid at you.
The splash of acid hits you! The acid burns!
You die...

   ###  ## #####
####.##  .##.f.##
......# ##......##
......# #........##
......###..PP.....#
.....#...(..@P..#
............P...###
..................#
.......#..........#
........###..#?...##
....#..## .####....#
.###...f#######....#
.....fffff##..#...#
...ffffff......<..##


You could see 4 oklob plants.

Vanquished Creatures
  Polyphemus (Shoals:3)
  The ghost of Martin the Warrior, a mighty MiBe of Trog (Snake:4)
  Frances (Snake:1)
  Kirke (Elf:1)
  10 greater nagas
  Wiglaf (Elf:3)
  Maud (Elf:1)
  Aizul (Snake:1)
  An orc warlord (Orc:3)
  Jorgrun (Snake:5)
  A deep elf annihilator (Elf:2)
  The ghost of Martin the Basher, a powerful MiBe of Trog (Lair:6)
  Snorg (Snake:5)
  8 merfolk javelineers (Shoals:5)
  A deep elf death mage (Elf:2)
  11 merfolk impalers
  7 sirens
  An ettin (D:12)
  2 deep elf high priests (Elf:3)
  2 merfolk aquamancers
  15 naga warriors
  4 hydras
  A ravenous item mimic (Shoals:5)
  16 anacondas
  Fannar (D:12)
  13 death yaks
  A satyr (Shoals:5)
  2 spectral elves
  10 shock serpents
  15 naga sharpshooters
  Urug (D:11)
  A tengu warrior (D:13)
  Erica (D:11)
  6 deep elf knights
  A catoblepas (Shoals:3)
  6 salamander mystics
  9 sea snakes
  7 deep elf summoners
  3 naga ritualists (Snake:5)
  27 harpies
  7 water nymphs
  Erolcha (Orc:4)
  2 lindwurms (Snake:5)
  8 deep elf conjurers
  13 mana vipers
  3 orc knights
  5 fauns (Shoals:4)
  4 orc sorcerers
  13 salamanders
  5 hill giants
  9 griffons
  7 guardian serpents
  16 manticores
  4 elephants (Lair:2)
  38 black mambas
  8 drowned souls
  An orange demon (Snake:1)
  9 mermaids
  2 cyclopes (D:11)
  3 gargoyles
  A feature mimic (Elf:1)
  An item mimic (Elf:3)
  17 spiny frogs
  19 naga magi
  3 tengu conjurers
  2 fire drakes
  3 demonic crawlers (Elf:1)
  7 deep elf priests
  A guardian serpent (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  7 komodo dragons
  A centaur skeleton (D:12)
  29 merfolk
  A jumping spider (Elf:1)
  3 wind drakes
  22 blink frogs
  Maurice (D:10)
  4 giant leeches (Lair:8)
  A polar bear (Lair:3)
  6 snapping turtles
  5 trolls
  2 basilisks
  2 ravens
  A wandering mushroom (D:8)
  A redback (Elf:1)
  6 slime creatures (D:12)
  17 water elementals
  A shadow (D:13)
  An elephant slug (Lair:2)
  5 wyverns
  67 yaks
  23 deep elf magi
  2 hill giant zombies (D:10)
  5 vampire mosquitoes
  12 sharks
  Grum (D:8)
  4 ugly things
  20 deep elf fighters
  11 wolves
  9 hippogriffs
  A hog (Elf:1)
  3 hungry ghosts
  A human (D:9)
  A human zombie (D:14)
  19 wargs
  25 water moccasins
  69 nagas
  2 necrophages
  6 porcupines
  4 giant goldfish (Lair:8)
  3 mottled dragons
  2 phantoms
  23 orc warriors
  3 boring beetles
  13 crocodiles
  13 ogres
  5 centaurs
  2 ice beasts
  A manticore skeleton (D:12)
  2 big kobolds
  13 giant slugs
  3 sky beasts
  A komodo dragon zombie (D:9)
  A brain worm (D:12)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:9)
  37 giant frogs
  A cyclops zombie (D:14)
  4 scorpions
  2 eyes of draining
  11 killer bees
  7 jellies
  A troll skeleton (D:9)
  13 wights
  5 goliath beetles
  9 crimson imps
  10 electric eels
  A quasit (D:10)
  A basilisk zombie (D:14)
  8 hounds
  A big fish (Lair:8)
  A kobold skeleton (D:13)
  11 iguanas
  30 orc priests
  4 worker ants
  Natasha (D:5)
  25 orc wizards
  9 orange rats
  Jessica (D:3)
  A sheep (Lair:8)
  An ogre zombie (D:5)
  2 ogre skeletons
  3 worker ant zombies
  6 gnolls (D:9)
  31 adders
  4 orc skeletons
  53 green rats
  A shadow imp (D:13)
  4 giant mites
  13 worms
  15 orc zombies
  An adder skeleton (D:9)
  3 giant eyeballs
  6 giant geckos
  An ooze (D:1)
  173 orcs
  26 bats
  A bat skeleton (D:8)
  5 giant cockroaches
  16 hobgoblins
  28 jackals
  13 quokkas
  A ball python (D:4)
  2 giant newts
  22 goblins
  2 hobgoblin zombies
  25 kobolds
  A quokka zombie (D:7)
  25 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:6)
  A rat zombie (D:5)
  14 ballistomycetes (D:12)
  A bush (D:9)
  A crawling corpse (Elf:3)
  11 fungi
  14 plants
1614 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  An Ice Fiend (Elf:3)
  Ilsuiw (Shoals:5)
  A greater naga (Snake:5)
  A deep elf demonologist (Elf:3)
  2 deep elf annihilators
  2 deep elf death magi (Elf:3)
  A siren (Shoals:2)
  A naga warrior (Snake:3)
  A satyr (Shoals:4)
  2 anacondas
  An orc high priest (Orc:4)
  2 naga sharpshooters (Snake:5)
  2 soul eaters
  A salamander mystic (Snake:5)
  A slime creature (D:12)
  2 lindwurms (Snake:5)
  4 harpies (Shoals:2)
  4 orc sorcerers
  An orc knight (D:8)
  A faun (Shoals:4)
  2 drowned souls (Shoals:2)
  A smoke demon (Elf:3)
  5 naga magi (Snake:5)
  An iron devil (Orc:4)
  3 demonic crawlers (Elf:2)
  2 merfolk (Shoals:5)
  A snapping turtle (Shoals:2)
  2 redbacks (Elf:2)
  2 water elementals (Shoals:5)
  2 nagas
  2 orc warriors
  5 orc zombies (Orc:4)
  A lost soul (Elf:3)
  5 orc priests
  7 orc wizards (Orc:4)
  4 orange rats (Elf:2)
  9 orcs
  A crawling corpse (Elf:3)
87 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  3 deep trolls
  An unseen horror (D:11)
  A deep elf summoner (Elf:1)
  40 drowned souls
  A naga mage (Snake:5)
  A two-headed ogre (Elf:3)
  4 trolls
  4 humans (Elf:1)
  A water elemental (Lair:2)
  A dancing weapon (Snake:3)
  An ogre (Shoals:5)
  2 giant spores (D:12)
  A ballistomycete (D:12)
  9 fungi
  15 plants
85 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1786 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Martin, the Minotaur Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 1/1
   185 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 24/27 MP: 1/1
   240 | D:1      | Acquired Trog's second power
   352 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
   765 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 30/33 MP: 2/2
  1239 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 41/41 MP: 2/2
  1272 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1279 | D:3      | Noticed Jessica
  1287 | D:3      | Killed Jessica
  1404 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  1574 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  2262 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 45/47 MP: 2/2
  2289 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  2311 | D:4      | Acquired Trog's third power
  2377 | D:4      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  2386 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  2719 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  2750 | D:5      | Noticed an ogre
  2760 | D:5      | Killed an ogre
  2760 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 9/56 MP: 3/3
  3161 | D:5      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  3196 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Maces & Flails
  3238 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  3463 | D:5      | Noticed Natasha
  3467 | D:5      | Killed Natasha
  3473 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  3614 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 57/63 MP: 3/3
  3711 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Maces & Flails
  3748 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 31/73 MP: 3/3
  4015 | D:6      | Got a transparent robe
  4031 | D:6      | Identified the +2 robe "Grenkug" {+Inv} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
  4149 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Maces & Flails
  4927 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4946 | D:7      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  5034 | D:7      | Received a gift from Trog
  5093 | D:7      | Reached skill level 9 in Maces & Flails
  5151 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 81/83 MP: 1/4
  5460 | D:7      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
  5573 | D:7      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  5866 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  6022 | D:8      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  6051 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
  6135 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  6305 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
  6416 | D:8      | Noticed an orc knight
  6418 | D:8      | Noticed an orc sorcerer
  6433 | D:8      | Killed an orc sorcerer
  6433 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 38/94 MP: 1/4
  6437 | D:8      | Killed an orc knight
  6823 | D:8      | Noticed an orc knight
  6832 | D:8      | Killed an orc knight
  6832 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Maces & Flails
  8056 | D:9      | Noticed Grum
  8073 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  8148 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Trog
  8188 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 12 in Maces & Flails
  8672 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 96/104 MP: 4/4
  8674 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  8744 | Lair:1   | Got a warped lead amulet
  9525 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Trog
 10700 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 13 in Maces & Flails
 12156 | D:8      | Killed Grum
 12166 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 12419 | D:9      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 12536 | D:9      | Received a gift from Trog
 13181 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 13225 | D:10     | Identified the amulet "Plog" {Gourm rF+ Str+3} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 13284 | D:10     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 110/115 MP: 5/5
 13330 | D:10     | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 13336 | D:10     | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 13411 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 13415 | D:10     | Noticed Maurice
 13425 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 13436 | D:10     | Killed Maurice
 13746 | D:11     | Noticed Erica
 14607 | D:11     | Killed Erica
 14843 | D:11     | Found Hoathro's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon I for 45 gold pieces
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 97 gold pieces
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon I for 45 gold pieces
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
 14861 | D:11     | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
 15577 | D:11     | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 15582 | D:11     | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 15582 | D:11     | Reached skill level 14 in Maces & Flails
 15681 | D:12     | Noticed Urug
 15709 | D:11     | Received a gift from Trog
 15757 | D:11     | Killed Urug
 16014 | D:12     | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 16018 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 16747 | D:12     | Noticed Fannar
 16772 | D:12     | Killed Fannar
 16902 | D:12     | Received a gift from Trog
 16986 | D:12     | Reached XP level 13. HP: 124/124 MP: 5/5
 17688 | D:12     | Noticed an ettin
 17717 | D:12     | Killed an ettin
 18244 | D:13     | Received a gift from Trog
 18484 | D:14     | Reached skill level 15 in Maces & Flails
 18492 | D:14     | Noticed Sonja
 21051 | D:13     | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 21051 | D:13     | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 21051 | D:13     | Reached XP level 14. HP: 133/135 MP: 5/5
 22984 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 23419 | Orc:3    | Noticed an orc warlord
 23740 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Trog
 23745 | Orc:2    | Got a fine morningstar {god gift}
 23746 | Orc:2    | Identified the +3,+13 morningstar "Clojoull" {elec, rF++} (Trog gifted it to you on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 23778 | Orc:3    | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 23812 | Orc:3    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 23857 | Orc:3    | Killed an orc warlord
 24077 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 24240 | Orc:3    | Found Farphosa's Armour Emporium.
 24461 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 24466 | Orc:4    | Noticed Erolcha
 24563 | Orc:4    | Killed Erolcha
 24698 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 25348 | Orc:4    | Received a gift from Trog
 26146 | Orc:4    | Found Khupugg's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 26146 | Orc:4    | Found Pheqipt's Armour Emporium.
 26155 | Orc:4    | Found Nuzutto's Jewellery Emporium.
 26161 | Orc:4    | Found Kufaa's Assorted Antiques.
 26164 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 36 gold pieces
 26164 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 36 gold pieces
 26164 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of brand weapon for 360 gold pieces
 26244 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 26368 | Elf:1    | Found Thrah's Assorted Antiques.
 26371 | Elf:1    | Bought a white potion for 24 gold pieces
 26431 | Elf:1    | Noticed Maud
 26433 | Elf:1    | Noticed Kirke
 26444 | Elf:1    | Killed Maud
 26463 | Elf:1    | Killed Kirke
 26463 | Elf:1    | Received a gift from Trog
 26810 | Elf:1    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 71/143 MP: 6/6
 27353 | D:11     | Reached skill level 16 in Maces & Flails
 28150 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Trog
 28516 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 29596 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 30142 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Trog
 30199 | Lair:6   | Noticed Martin's ghost (powerful MiBe)
 30226 | Lair:6   | Killed Martin's ghost
 31474 | Lair:7   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 31756 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 32060 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Trog
 32713 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 17 in Maces & Flails
 33245 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 16. HP: 140/154 MP: 6/6
 33348 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Trog
 33744 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 33838 | Snake:1  | Noticed Frances
 33856 | Snake:1  | Killed Frances
 34184 | Snake:1  | Noticed Aizul
 34202 | Snake:1  | Killed Aizul
 35408 | Snake:3  | Received a gift from Trog
 36781 | Snake:3  | Received a gift from Trog
 37113 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 18 in Maces & Flails
 38264 | Snake:4  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 163/163 MP: 6/6
 38307 | Snake:4  | Noticed Martin's ghost (mighty MiBe)
 38321 | Snake:4  | Killed Martin's ghost
 38321 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 38557 | Snake:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Snake Pit
 38734 | Snake:5  | Received a gift from Trog
 39066 | Snake:5  | Noticed Jorgrun
 39378 | Snake:5  | Killed Jorgrun
 39412 | Snake:5  | Received a gift from Trog
 39658 | Snake:5  | Noticed Snorg
 40254 | Snake:5  | Received a gift from Trog
 40768 | Snake:5  | Reached skill level 19 in Maces & Flails
 40886 | Snake:5  | Killed Snorg
 41811 | Snake:5  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 159/176 MP: 7/7
 41889 | Snake:5  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 42752 | Elf:1    | Received a gift from Trog
 43522 | Elf:2    | Received a gift from Trog
 44304 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
 44691 | Elf:3    | Noticed Wiglaf
 44709 | Elf:3    | Killed Wiglaf
 45131 | Elf:3    | Noticed a Brimstone Fiend
 46027 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 46477 | Shoals:1 | Received a gift from Trog
 47502 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 20 in Maces & Flails
 48823 | Shoals:3 | Received a gift from Trog
 49376 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Polyphemus
 49398 | Shoals:3 | Killed Polyphemus
 50042 | Shoals:4 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 103/185 MP: 7/7
 50630 | Shoals:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Shoals
 51797 | Shoals:5 | Got a crude marble ring
 51830 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Ilsuiw
 51843 | Shoals:5 | Killed Ilsuiw
 53010 | Shoals:5 | Received a gift from Trog
 54131 | Shoals:5 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 54663 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 54712 | Lair:7   | Splashed by an oklob plant's acid


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Mace              |    52 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    52
       Flail             |    17 |   180 |   118 |       |       |       |       ||   315
       Dire flail        |       |       |    77 |       |       |       |       ||    77
       Great mace        |       |       |   133 |   174 |       |       |       ||   307
       Unarmed           |       |       |       |    30 |       |       |       ||    30
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |   692 |  1387 |  1531 |   450 ||  4060
Invok: Berserk           |       |     1 |     2 |     3 |     1 |       |       ||     7
       Burn Spellbooks   |       |     1 |       |     3 |       |     7 |       ||    11
       Brothers in Arms  |       |       |     1 |       |     5 |    11 |     3 ||    20
 Abil: Evoke Teleportati |       |       |       |       |     3 |       |       ||     3
       Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |     1 |     4 |     3 ||     8
Evoke: Phial of floods   |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Deck              |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Wand              |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
  Use: Scroll            |       |     5 |     9 |     6 |    15 |    23 |     5 ||    63
       Potion            |       |       |     1 |     4 |    13 |    16 |     5 ||    39
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Distracted        |       |       |       |     2 |       |       |       ||     2

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 03:40

Re: New Player: Advice Please

First I'll say that you don't want to go to Slime except for your third rune instead of Vaults. Slime is a not very nice place.
Your branch order should be something like this: Dungeon until Lair, all of Lair, continue Dungeon until Orc, do Orc (but be aware that Orc:4 is full of tough monsters and if you don't split/lure them off you'll get surrounded, massively smited and die), finish Dungeon, do a non-slime Lair branch and get the rune, do Vaults until 4 (don't enter 5 yet), do the other non-slime Lair branch and get rune 2. do Crypt if you need more exp and Elf if you need more items (the Elf:3 vault will have items but tons of very powerful elf spellcasters, split/lure and never fight sorcerors/demonologists without invoking trog's hand first for resistance to banishment). Do Slime if you have the correct resistances for it (resist corrosion, rC+ or more for azure jellies, clarity or 4/5 MR accessible for golden eyes, resist mutation for shining eyes from most to least required) for rune 3, or else do Vaults:5.
-Don't over-emphasize rF+. The first pip is by far the most important - pretty much everything that you can resist with rF+ you can ALSO resist with AC. (And AC is more broadly applicable, so...)
-Unlike in Brogue there is 0 reason to carry around non-beneficial items - you can't throw bad potions for example. Drop them.
-The food available in your inventory indicates to me that your food management is all wrong. (Note that Crawl is very unlike Brogue in food management - often you can go most of the game without eating permafood once and using only chunks from monsters. It's very lenient because of chunks.) Do this instead:
** Whenever possible, eat chunks instead of permafood, since the chunks will eventually spoil if you don't eat them anyway.
** Don't eat permafood until you have entered Starving. Also, eating before you enter a new level is ok, just in case you need Trog powers accessible, but if you just meet some new pack or dangerous enemy, you can run away then eat - no need to make the decision in advance.
** When you eat permafood, eat the least inventory space efficient food first (basically small fruits < large fruits < rations).
** Make a stash on Lair:1 by the staircase (you can use ctrl+f to find it again - Crawl has an awesome auto-travel system!). Put all items that you don't need right now in it (fruits, all but a few rations, strategic consumbles you don't have need to use right now such as enchant and cure mutation and recharging, etc. If it's not in your inventory it can't freeze or burn!).

Btw, if you don't know what split/luring is, it's the most efficient way to deal with monsters most of the time.
1) Autoexplore/run/whatever until a monster comes into view. (These commands will not work while a monster is in view, so it guarantees you get the first turn, as opposed to player error meaning you accidentally walk towards the monster.)
1.5) If you're comfortable with killing it on its own and it hasn't noticed you yet, throw a stone at it to get its attention (it will not shout if you make the first attack, only if it notices you first).
2) Run at least 8 tiles away from it - in a path that does not take you through unexplored/uncleared territory, in a path that takes you closer to stairs you can use to better escape the situation. It will follow you. Any other monsters awake or alert near it will come to any noise made near the original meeting (e.g. due to a shout) - but won't see you after that, so will decline to pursue further.
3) Go behind cover (such that the monster can't attack you at range until it's almost next to you) and rest (hit 5) until the monster you lured is in melee range. Now you can deal with it one on one in whatever matter befits it.
4) Because you are so far behind 'the front line' of unexplored territory, the noise made by fighting won't attract anything new.

Obviously this isn't foolproof, sometimes a few friends will come, but at every point in a Crawl game the less you have to fight at once the better off you are.

Another important thing to know is that, unlike in Brogue, only intelligent monsters can open doors. If you see something you don't want to deal with, close the door and wait for it to come to you/run away/leave it there if it is unintelligent.

Also learn about/apply pillar dancing (endlessly running away from a monster in an already cleared out loop to regen HP and MP), door dancing (endlessly closing a door that your enemy opens, like pillar dancing but without moving around - will eventually fail because energy randomization makes monsters occasionally take 1 energy more or less to make a move), weapon swap escape (like the player character, enemies that use weapons suffer from weapon delay - an ogre swinging a club takes more than 1.0 turns to do so, for example. If you are next to an ogre and need to make a gap so you can go up the stairs without it following, take off/put on a weapon or jewellery (takes a fraction of a turn) until it swings, then run away and it will lag behind while following you) and monster-monster line of fire blocking (monsters tend to funnel towards the orthogonals when chasing toward you - and to fire a ranged attack, the 'normal' straight line path must be free of obstructions - so if there is a monster north of you then monsters approaching from the north can be 'blocked' from firing their ranged attacks), the corner freebie (if you're standing in a corner and fighting an approaching orc pack like this:
  Code:
####
oo.#
##@#

then eventually the orc will step into the 'elbow' of the corner to let his friend walk in and fight too. Wait until this position:
  Code:
####
.oo#
##@#

then step backwards, and you have robbed the orc of a turn it could have spent attacking you. small optimization, but if e.g. pillar dancing you can do this indefinitely by finding a new corner over and over, so can matter.)
... There are lots of little optimizations you can learn. But split/luring, having a safe escape route from conflict and using cover/chokepoints to not fight many things at once is by far the most important of all.

Now, there is still a LOT more to learn and know about Crawl beyond what I put in this post - but I'll let other people cover that with their posts.

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 03:57

Re: New Player: Advice Please

That's the kind of nitty-gritty I'm looking for!

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 04:14

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Patashu wrote:Another important thing to know is that, unlike in Brogue, only intelligent monsters can open doors. If you see something you don't want to deal with, close the door and wait for it to come to you/run away/leave it there if it is unintelligent.


The one exception to this is jellies. 'Course, they don't "open" doors, they eat them.

Patashu gave you some technical advice so I'll give you a few hints on how to work with the god you've chosen. These may or may not be necessary depending on how good you are at figuring things out on your own, but I'll tell you anyway.

• This might seem odd since as a Trog worshipper you don't cast spells, but it might be a good idea to carry a few spellbooks around with you anyway. Your Burn Book skill is useful for so much more than just quick piety - if you're being chased by a tough enemy drop a book, then burn it when it's between you and the enemy to stop them chasing you, or wait until they stand on it and spark it up when they step on it to deal damage to them, then turn and go berserk on the weakened enemy. So yeah, once more just to make this clear: NEVER burn books just for piety - you'll get plenty of piety just from killing and sacrificing enemies in Trog's name. Those books are way more effective as landmines.

• Obviously, be careful not to come out of berserk with enemies still around you. You'll be slowed and exhausted and you may even pass out for a few turns after your berserk is over. Trog will reduce these effects somewhat, but he won't remove them entirely.

• If you need help, remember to call your summons BEFORE you berserk, because you can't do it while raging.

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 04:23

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Knight9910 wrote:
Patashu wrote:Another important thing to know is that, unlike in Brogue, only intelligent monsters can open doors. If you see something you don't want to deal with, close the door and wait for it to come to you/run away/leave it there if it is unintelligent.


The one exception to this is jellies. 'Course, they don't "open" doors, they eat them.

There are also some other weird exceptions like dragons can't open doors yet Xtahua (a dragon unique) can, and Gastronok (a slug unique spellcaster) can't open doors.
If you ever want to make 100% sure one way or the other on what a monster can do/has for stats, do the following:
1) Connect to https://webchat.freenode.net/
2) Join ##crawl
3) Query Cheibriados with the message %??name of monster
  Code:
[14:19] <Patashu> %??ogre
[14:19] <Cheibriados> ogre (O) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 16-38 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Dam: 17 | items, doors | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contam | XP: 119 | Sz: Large | Int: normal.

(Note that monsters wielding weapons add the base damage of the weapon to their damage before swinging -> for example, an ogre with a GSC could do about 38 damage if it rolls max for damage and you roll min for AC, and that HD is a stat roughly equivalent to monster level, it improves monster accuracy, spell power and chance to cast a spell/fire a ranged weapon instead of stepping closer and improves resistance of some things like being afflicted with curare.)

• This might seem odd since as a Trog worshipper you don't cast spells, but it might be a good idea to carry a few spellbooks around with you anyway. Your Burn Book skill is useful for so much more than just quick piety - if you're being chased by a tough enemy drop a book, then burn it when it's between you and the enemy to stop them chasing you, or wait until they stand on it and spark it up when they step on it to deal damage to them, then turn and go berserk on the weakened enemy. So yeah, once more just to make this clear: NEVER burn books just for piety - you'll get plenty of piety just from killing and sacrificing enemies in Trog's name. Those books are way more effective as landmines.

(Quick note that this is an early game only tactic - it's useful for early ogre fights, for example, but in Lair and Orc there's never really a good position to burn a book, and after that melee is a better use of turns then messing with books, let alone the other things you can do with Trog powers and evokable items.)

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 04:43

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Ooh, that webchat query trick is nice. I like it.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 05:59

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Based on your stats, it looks like you were putting most of your points into Str. Dex is actually generally considered the better option for non spell-focused characters, and especially for minotaurs, since it makes their headbutt better.

In general, the standard advice is to raise Int for characters who use a lot of spells, Dex for characters who don't. The only real time you want to raise Str is if it's pathetically low (say, a Deep Elf Wizard) and you want to make your carrying capacity a bit less pathetic and reduce the risk of stat zero (although there are plans to remove item weights from trunk soon, which will reduce half of the reason in that scenario).

If nothing else, look at the skills I trained, is 20 overkill, is there a point of diminishing returns, and what should I have started training once I hit that number (if I did?). Also, what's the verdict on shields? I was digging mine (SH was 30+).


Your skills don't look too bad. I would probably recommend training dodging earlier than that - focusing on armour for a berserker earlier is a good idea, but it's worth eventually grabbing some dodging too. I would also have recommended training some evocations - it's basically useful for every character. In particular, the Phial of Floods you have is a fantastic item and gets much better with high evocables skill (the other elemental evokers, especially lantern of fire and fan of gales, are also great). I also wouldn't train shields skill that high for just a plain large shield - see what I wrote about shield skill below. You also seem to have put a little bit of training into several different weapon skills before settling on Maces and Flails - while switching weapon types can be a good idea if you find something really great, especially if you have cross-training for it, you generally don't want to jump around too much. I've even seen some people recommend not identifying anything outside your chosen weapon type just so you don't get tempted to switch. On the other hand, my first win involved switching from Maces and Flails to a polearms after finding a godly demon trident in lair that basically let me tab through the rest of the game, so switching certainly can be worth it.

For your other question, there is a point of diminishing returns, but it varies depending on the skill. Although in general, higher levels of skills take much more experience to train than lower levels of skills (I believei t increases exponentially), so even for skills where there isn't diminishing returns per skill point, there are diminishing returns per experience. Raising some skills past 20 is often worth it, but it's also worth noting that by the time a skill's past 20, you can often raise another skill from 0 to 5 or 10 for the same amount of XP.

Some specific breakpoints:

For melee weapons skills: each weapon has a "min-delay", the faster possible attack speed you can have with the weapon. Raising your skill with that weapon increases attack speed until you hit min-delay, at which point it stops increasing your attack speed. The slower the weapon's base speed, the less skill you need for min delay. You still get a small damage and accuracy boost for more weapon speed after that, but there's a significant fall-off. For a morningstar, you hit min-delay at 16 M&F skill. Note that min-delay for ranged weapons is much, much more complicated and takes your str and dex into account.

For spells: There isn't a specific breakpoint in general, but you can consider spell failure and whether you care about a given spell's spell power or not. Once you get to a failure rate you're happy with for a spell, if you don't care about improving your spell-power and aren't going for any more spells in that school, then it tends to make sense to stop training for it. If you'retraining conjurations as your main source of offense, you probably want to keep training conjurations even after you've gotten your bread and butter spells to a tiny failure rate because you want more spellpower for more damage. But if you're training charms just to get haste, it's often not worth the experience once you have it at a low success rate, so as soon as you can cast it reliably you'll probably want to stop.

Fighting, armour, and dodging I think never really have a breakpoint and are always good. It's just a matter of whether you could get a better return for your experience elsewhere. Invocations I don't think ever has a breakpoint, but how much of it is recommended varies by god (some, like Trog, don't need any). I'm not sure about Evocations. Spellcasting doesn't have a particular breakpoint, just train it if you want more spell levels or less spell hunger - if you're happy with your spell levels and hunger and just want to increase spellpower or success rates, you're probably better off training specific schools.

For shields:Shield can be good, but most people consider large shields to not be worth the investment, especially if you're not an ogre or troll. Ordinarily shields have a negative impact on your melee attacks, ranged attacks, and spellcasting, but the penalty is reduced with enough shield skill. For a medium-sized race, the penalty for melee and spells is entirely eliminated for bucklers, shields, and large shields at 5, 15, and 25 skill, respectively (it takes less skill for larger races and more for smaller ones, the penalty for ranged attacks is never fully eliminated no matter how much shield skill you have). For large shields, the experience investment required for a medium race is so huge it's almost never worth it. For medium shields, it can be with a good enough shield or enough spare XP, and for bucklers it's pretty insignificant as long as you're gonna be using one-handed weapons.

In general, whether or not shields are good (compared to two-handers) just depends on what your aptitudes are and what equipment you find. If you find an amazing shield and/or one-hander, the one-hander and shield route is good. If you find an amazing two-hander, then skip shields.

Depending on your weapon type, you might be more likely to find a good one-hander or two-hander. For axes, two-handers are basically always considered better, unless you find a really, really incredible one-hander, because the best one-handed axe base type isn't very good. For staves, the elemental staves (which scale with evocations and magic skill) are one handers, so if you're a caster hoping for one of those you might use a shield, but the best non-elemental staff for fighting is a Lajatang, which is two-handed. For short blades, two-handers don't exists, so it's probably worth at least using a buckler. For long blades, maces and flails, or polearms, there are good one-handed or two-handed options, so you can just choose based on what you find or whether you want more offense or defence.

Although for maces, the best two-handed maces (great mace for most races, giant spike club for ogres or trolls) is more common than the best one-handed maces (demon whips and eveningstars) are fairly rare (demon whips aren't too hard to find in depths and are everywhere in extended but very rare before depths).

Patashu wrote:First I'll say that you don't want to go to Slime except for your third rune instead of Vaults. Slime is a not very nice place.


Well, he did have two runes. But yeah, Vaults is a much more common choice of third rune than slime. Slime can be an easier third rune for some characters, but it's probably best to stay away from there until you know what you're doing. At the very least, you should probably never do it before completing depths, and almost certainly never do it without corrosion resistance, since basically everything there does acid damage (although artefacts and anything with a +5 enchantment or higher is immune to corrosion, so if you're using nothing but artefacts and heavily-enchanted gear you can get away with no rCorr or preservation). Mutation resistance is also recommended for shining eyes.

Patashu wrote:-The food available in your inventory indicates to me that your food management is all wrong. (Note that Crawl is very unlike Brogue in food management - often you can go most of the game without eating permafood once and using only chunks from monsters. It's very lenient because of chunks.) Do this instead:
** Whenever possible, eat chunks instead of permafood, since the chunks will eventually spoil if you don't eat them anyway.
** Don't eat permafood until you have entered Starving. Also, eating before you enter a new level is ok, just in case you need Trog powers accessible, but if you just meet some new pack or dangerous enemy, you can run away then eat - no need to make the decision in advance.
** When you eat permafood, eat the least inventory space efficient food first (basically small fruits < large fruits < rations).
** Make a stash on Lair:1 by the staircase (you can use ctrl+f to find it again - Crawl has an awesome auto-travel system!). Put all items that you don't need right now in it (fruits, all but a few rations, strategic consumbles you don't have need to use right now such as enchant and cure mutation and recharging, etc. If it's not in your inventory it can't freeze or burn!).


Well, he did have Gourmand, which changes things. When you have gourmand, you can basically just stuff yourself with every clean or contaminated trunk you find, rotten or not (still avoid red or purple chunks, though).

I also, personally, disagree with waiting until you're starving to eat permafood. I prefer to eat it when I hit near starving. I've died before due to entering starving mid-combat because I was too cautious with permafood, and come close on multiple other occasions. This is especially true if you're a character reliant on high-hunger abilities (casters mostly, but can also matter with Troglodytes) you don't want to find yourself unable to use your god abilities in the middle of a nasty fight because you were stingey with food.

Also, I think theoretically Lair 2 is a safer place for your stash on Lair 1. Some humanoid uniques can spawn on Lair 1 (I don't know if Jellies can), while I believe there is literally nothing that can possibly pick up or destroy any items on Lair 2. I don't know if it ever really matters in practice, though.

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Tubesteak Boogy

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 13:46

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Awesome! Explain to me why training dodge is good with really heavy armour, and why dex is better than strength for tanks. And medium shields lose their penalty at 15, but is there a benefit of training further and having a really high SH number?

Anyway, awesome stuff. What a great game, thanks everyone so far.

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 13:58

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Higher SH is better, of course, but it generally isn't worth the exp investment. Two-handers tend to be better for MiBe anyway.
Dodging is good with heavy armour because this is how it works: there is an initial stage where it gives no benefits, but once you reach a certain dodging skill it goes up rapidly. So you end up with great EV even though you're wearing heavy armour. Dex helps your EV a lot, whereas raising Str doesn't do much if you have enough to wear the armour of your choice.

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 14:02

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Can we create a wiki entry out of this thread? Something like "Tips and tricks for new player".

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:00

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Cool, that makes sense. Is there a specific 'create stash' mechanism or are you just leaving it somewhere and control-Fing it?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 15th April 2014, 15:16

Re: New Player: Advice Please

I usually use Ctrl+w and then 1 to set waypoint 1 to stash, it allows to travel to the stash by Ctrl+g and then 1.

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Post Wednesday, 16th April 2014, 20:03

Re: New Player: Advice Please

rather than waypoints my de fecto stashes are on branch entries, so I can use GD , GL, GV etc. (I don't try to make a universal stash, but I do tend to drop things there - so if I go back to get something, other things will be dropped there, and they grow).
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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 07:26

Re: New Player: Advice Please

rchandra wrote:rather than waypoints my de fecto stashes are on branch entries, so I can use GD , GL, GV etc. (I don't try to make a universal stash, but I do tend to drop things there - so if I go back to get something, other things will be dropped there, and they grow).

Watch out not to use GD when in Hell, as it'll send you to D:1.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 17th April 2014, 08:29

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Also fun tip I learned recently: If you often fat finger GH and send yourself to hell, learn to use ctrl+g instead (which won't have this problem)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 19th April 2014, 08:28

Re: New Player: Advice Please

Most of this advice was correct, a few minor points though:
Quazifuji wrote:especially for minotaurs, since it makes their headbutt better.

This isn't true, dex and str have exactly the same effect on a minotaur's headbutt's chance of happening, and str effects it's damage slightly more
Quazifuji wrote:
In general, the standard advice is to raise Int for characters who use a lot of spells, Dex for characters who don't. The only real time you want to raise Str is if it's pathetically low (say, a Deep Elf Wizard) and you want to make your carrying capacity a bit less pathetic and reduce the risk of stat zero (although there are plans to remove item weights from trunk soon, which will reduce half of the reason in that scenario).

Note that in some edge cases, increasing strength will give you more EV than increasing dex (because more strength will reduce your armour penalty) however this is unlikely unless you're using a very heavy armour with very low strength.
Quazifuji wrote: Invocations I don't think ever has a breakpoint, but how much of it is recommended varies by god (some, like Trog, don't need any). I'm not sure about Evocations. Spellcasting doesn't have a particular breakpoint, just train it if you want more spell levels or less spell hunger - if you're happy with your spell levels and hunger and just want to increase spellpower or success rates, you're probably better off training specific schools.

How useful Invocations is depends on the god, however I find that invocations is much like spell schools, in that I want to get certain abilities to a low failure rate then stop.

Evocations similarly depends on what you're using the skill for, there are some items which gain no more benefit from evocation past a certain point, and some that do.

Never train spellcasting exclusively for reducing spell hunger, if you get hungry casting spells, eat more. Train spellcasting when you want more spell slots to memorize higher level spells, or in the very beginning of the game as a blasty mage, to get a few extra MP.
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