YACD

[TeshiAlair]

Yet Another Chei Death

  Code:

4 centaurs come into view.
The centaur shouts! x3
The centaur wields a bow. The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
The centaur wields a bow. The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
The centaur wields a bow. The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
The centaur wields a bow. The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
The centaur shoots an arrow. You block the arrow. The centaur shoots an arrow.
The arrow hits you! The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow misses you. The centaur shoots an arrow.
The arrow hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The centaur shoots an arrow. You block the arrow. The centaur shoots an arrow.
The arrow hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The centaur shoots an arrow. The arrow hits you!
You die...

       c.c    #.........#
    ≈#c._..## #......)...
    ≈≈≈≈≈≈c#≈≈#.........
    #≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈#.........
     ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈##.........
     #≈≈≈≈≈≈# #.........
     #≈≈≈≈≈≈# #.........
######......###.........
........@## ##.........#
..........###...........
 ..........#............
 ..................<...
 ......................
  .....................
  ....................
  ....................
   .....#############.

Someday I'm going to remember that Chei is flat out not worth it

[Sandman25]

Do you think you would survive with other gods? 3 Centaurs and upstairs are quite far...

Edit.

  Code:

You had 8 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Why did you pick Chei? IMHO it's somewhat similar to picking Okawaru for DEFE.

[damiac]

I think he would have had better odds of surviving if he got a chance to do anything at all. I thought the devs were going to try to change something so Chei followers didn't get murdered by things that weren't even there before they took a step.

I can't imagine how a follower of Chei deals with Nessos...

[rchandra]

I can't imagine how a follower of Chei deals with Nessos...

wands (especially statuses, MR is low), temporal distortion, slouch, big spells, stealth + exclusion.

Trying to analyse this particular death is silly without a log, and the OP clearly just wanted to vent.

[Sandman25]

Yes, trying to get into melee range with Nessos is not an optimal strategy.

rchandra
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/TeshiAlair/ ... 200255.txt

[damiac]

He posted a short log, at least from the look of it he took a step, in that step he saw 4 centaurs, and they shot him to death before he got a chance to react.

That's what I meant about Nessos. How do you not just die when you first step into LOS with him? If you survive that, I guess slouch would probably make short work of him.

[Eyesburn]

You had no skill points into the Stealth skill. If you had 4-6 points those centaurs wouldnt notice you.
Nagas have +5 aptitude for Stealth, so use(train) that skill; it will greatly increase your chances to survive encounters like this.

[Sandman25]

Stealth would not help IMHO, AC 6, EV 5, extremely unstealthy, no spells.

[TeshiAlair]

I'll fully admit this was not the most well thought out plan, but I found a D1 Chei altar and thought that going a fast start would be sufficient. I was playing a fighter with decent shields, and was hoping to pick up an early spellbook. I had killed one or two centaurs earlier without much trouble, and probably would have been able to just Slouch these had I not gotten instagibbed.

[Sandman25]

Maybe wearing a robe would help. Robe gives +1 AC, Scale mail gives +3 AC and has ER -11, the same as FDA/IDA.

[mikee]

You had no skill points into the Stealth skill. If you had 4-6 points those centaurs wouldnt notice you.

5 points of stealth is functionally useless against a group of monsters at any point in the game.

[Eyesburn]

I can't imagine how a follower of Chei deals with Nessos...

This Naga gladiator had encounter with Nessos.

  Code:

 53571 | D:13     | Noticed Nessos
 53577 | D:13     | Killed Nessos

Edit:

5 points of stealth is functionally useless against a group of monsters at any point in the game.

My experience with 5-6 points into the Stealth tells me different. Found out that helps early game. Maybe later on I train it to 10.

[mikee]

My experience with 5-6 points into the Stealth tells me different. Found out that helps early game. Maybe later on I train it to 10.

The chance of a 10 dex naga with 5 stealth going unnoticed for one turn by 4 centaurs is about 38%. With 20 dex, as this one had because of chei, the chance is around 47%. With 10 or 20 dex and 10 stealth, the chance becomes a little better (around 60%). Still, I hope you can see that 5 stealth is not any kind of reliable answer to the OP's problem.

[Eyesburn]

Having 47% is much better then 0%, eh?
Im newbie and stealth is an easy way to increase my chances to survive
(especially with +5 aptitude, with little exp investment I can increase those XX% to survive).

[Sandman25]

You had no skill points into the Stealth skill. If you had 4-6 points those centaurs wouldnt notice you.

5 points of stealth is functionally useless against a group of monsters at any point in the game.

Not for Na in robe. 90 Stealth from stealth + N from Dex give a decent chance to be unnoticed by most monsters.

  Code:

Your chance of going unseen is a ratio between your Stealth Score and each monster's Monster Awareness Score + 1. Monster Awareness is equal to 10, modified as follows:

Positive Factors
Monster intelligence: +0 for plants/jellies/zombies, +4 for insects, +8 for animals, +12 for humanoids, +16 for highly intelligent monsters
Hit dice: +1 per HD
Sense invisible: +5
If the monster is wandering instead of sleeping: +15
Demons, the undead, holy beings, golems, and plants: +10


http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Stealth

[and into]

Stealth on Nagas in particular can be worthwhile, certainly, but due to how stealth works you can't ever point at any particular situation and say, "Ah ha, if I had stealth here I definitely would have survived." Really NaFi^Chei is pretty tough on all three counts, and they don't particularly synergize well with each other. Looking at the terrain he was close to breaking LOS so not being ^Chei would have drastically increased his chance of survival.

If you'll forgive a short tangent:
Okawaru is a fine choice on a DEFE, if nothing else +5 dodging is great and you'll generally want to be non-crappy at melee at some point and Oka helps with that, especially considering that the FE book in particular supports/encourages melee anyway. Oka is unorthodox but would not be bad. Naga Fighter is almost literally the last combo I would take Chei on, by contrast. The analogy doesn't hold.

[Eyesburn]

@and into
Just wanted to say that Stealth is useful skill and that helps to survive certain situations.
And still I think that he would had more chances to survive that encounter if he had some points into the Stealth skill (XX% chance is better then 0% chance).

Naga Fighter is almost literally the last combo I would take Chei on

Ok, so ? You dont like that combo, and I wont recommend you to play it, and I wont argue if it is good or if it is bad.

[Sandman25]

Okawaru is a fine choice on a DEFE, if nothing else +5 dodging is great and you'll generally want to be non-crappy at melee at some point and Oka helps with that, especially considering that the FE book in particular supports/encourages melee anyway. Oka is unorthodox but would not be bad. Naga Fighter is almost literally the last combo I would take Chei on, by contrast. The analogy doesn't hold.

Yes, I agree about bad analogy. I couldn't find a good analogy, everything was superior to extremely unstealthy spell-less naga of chei.
In my last DEVM of Kiku game I had demon whip of pain in Lair early but it was still a pain (pun intended) to melee monsters. Too low HP and too low AC.

[and into]

@and into
Just wanted to say that Stealth is useful skill and that helps to survive certain situations.
And still I think that he would had more chances to survive that encounter if he had some points into the Stealth skill (XX% chance is better then 0% chance).

Naga Fighter is almost literally the last combo I would take Chei on

Ok, so ? You dont like that combo, and I wont recommend you to play it, and I wont argue if it is good or if it is bad.

Sorry I should have been clearer. NaFi is a particularly dangerous/bad combo for which to worship Chei, even (especially?) from an early altar. Intelligence boost is one of the most meaningful aspects of Chei, and it doesn't matter to a background that has no book. And if I did take chei on a NaFi, I would have put on a robe once my stat boosts got going, because great dexterity is the other major asset for most characters, and big +dex makes it easy to get fast returns on EV through dodging investment, even if you have poor-ish aptitudes and a minor size penalty. This is doubly true when the scale mail had no + enchantment and thus gave only a paltry +3 AC due to the innate deformed body mutation of Nagas. (Of course Chei's high str and high dex and high int bonuses mean that you can *eventually* wear heavy stuff and still have good EV and cast and do whatever, but that would only come later, right now he was being made a lot less stealthy and probably coming off worse overall with AC/EV by wearing that scale.)

So robe + some stealth (agree with you there) + dodging would have been a better way to leverage Chei's stat boosts, even if I don't think Chei is a good choice overall anyway.

Basically a NaFi of Chei gets a bit more out of his shield (not worth it) whereas a lot of other backgrounds can actually use Chei's benefits much better. Plus Nagas and Chei already (IMO) have really bad interaction, Fighter background actually clashes more than it synergizes, too.

So it isn't a matter of "not liking" the combo, nor even of disliking Chei. Even aside from Chei's general problems, specifically for Teshi's character, the cost/benefit ratio was really out of whack and he was putting him/herself in a weaker position by worshiping Chei in this case. In my opinion this contributed greatly to the death.

[Eyesburn]

Nice elaboration, and I am well aware of things you said, it matches my playing experience(first paragraph about stats).

But if someone decides to take NaFi of Chei, then I guess they know what they are doing and they know how to build that kind of characer/role, and what to expect from it, and how to play it.

I have recently started to play DCSS (about two months ago), and Im still learning the ropes.
Found out that I like tasonir's playstyle and Im gonna quote him:

Also, to be clear, I didn't pick Nagas of Chei because I was looking for an easy combo - I was looking for late game power, being cool, and a playstyle that I like (chei).

[Eyesburn]

When people ask to recommend them good combos, they usually ask to recommend them good combos. Otherwise, you can win pretty much any combo in the game, yes.

I agree with that;

but I dont agree with this:

he was putting him/herself in a weaker position by worshiping Chei in this case. In my opinion this contributed greatly to the death.

Dont blame on Chei for your dead character. xD

[and into]

but I dont agree with this:

he was putting him/herself in a weaker position by worshiping Chei in this case. In my opinion this contributed greatly to the death.

Dont blame on Chei for your dead character. xD

You agree with tasonir that Chei Naga is not an easy combo, and you seem to agree that Chei NaFi in particular is not an easy combo. It follows, then, that worshiping Chei as a NaFi puts oneself in a weaker position (to win the game), which is what being "a hard combo" means. And that is just another way of saying that going NaFi^Chei "makes it harder to avoid death and more likely to encounter it" than other combinations and gods. So I don't see how you can agree with tasonir and disagree with what I said.

I'm sure that TeshiAlair's game was still winnable after worshiping Chei as a NaFi—I didn't mean to imply otherwise—but his choice to worship Chei definitely lowered his chances of surviving and thus contributed to his death, nonetheless.

I'm not against having fun nor am I obsessed with winning, but in the interest of honesty I have to question any suggestion that worshiping Chei does not make a NaFi much more likely to die. People should play the game how they like, but they should know what they are getting into, and a NaFi^Chei is a challenge along the lines of some mummy builds or bad wanderer starts or speedruns whatever. If that's what floats your boat, cool, but we should be clear that it is an additional challenge.

[Eyesburn]

I dont agree with blaming Chei for char death. When my char die I dont blame Chei.

but his choice to worship Chei definitely lowered his chances of surviving and thus contributed to his death, nonetheless.

Many other choices, decisions and actions can lead to char death.

but we should be clear that it is an additional challenge.

I agree that it is an additional challenge.
But isnt this game about beating an challenge?

Edit: and yes, I play other combos then NaXX of Chei and Im having fun with all combinations I have played.
Thats what I like about this game,diversity; so many combinations of species/classes(backgrounds)/gods; different ways and stlyes you can play it.

[tasonir]

I'm aware most people would disagree with me, but I'd say mummies are probably harder than nagas of chei in the long run. nagas of chei front load a lot of the difficulty early on, mummies are just tough throughout. This may be a matter of playstyle preference, I suppose. I know plenty of people love mummies but I can't really stand them

Also, playing a NaFi of chei optimally, given the combo and god choice, is different from setting up a bad NaFi of chei. Maybe he had really bad luck but 6 ac 5ev seems like something went wrong.

[and into]

Many other choices, decisions and actions can lead to char death.

Of course, and I pointed out some of the other mistakes. I'm not saying it was Chei worship alone or anything. And worshiping Chei is still one's choice so even then it is ultimately player's fault/responsibility, of course.

[duvessa]

I'm aware most people would disagree with me, but I'd say mummies are probably harder than nagas of chei in the long run.

Yeah but have you tried mummy of chei

[TeshiAlair]

Mummies are harder than nagas of chei because ctrl-q exists and is probably the best move you can make with mummies

[and into]

Okay I haven't actually tried it so just using my imagination, but mummy of chei somehow doesn't sound like it would clash so much. I mean compared to formicid of chei or naga where the weaknesses compile. At least mummies can't quaff !speed to begin with so some of the terribleness doesn't stack. And there's a certain aesthetic consistency that makes sense. Mummies really take their time, ya know?

(Yes I just started a mummy ice elementalist and I'm planning to try to go chei with him.)

[mikee]

I've played a natm of chei and a mumo of chei and they were each in the top 5 hardest and least fun characters I've ever played. For the mumo of chei, there were a lot of teleport traps in zot that monsters were hitting, and the long time it took to move around the map had some fairly 'interesting' interactions. At one point, a berserk orb guardian that had previously hit a teleport trap went from out of los to next to me in one move; that was pretty nice.

This may sound condescending (I really don't have the patience to care right now): a lot of new or casual or, well, bad players are only aware of the obvious penalties associated with chei. You can't run away. Sometimes you walk into some yaktaurs and they shoot you a bunch right away. Sure, these are bad, but when you are aware of what is happening on every turn, every single move at slow speed is really painful. For every series of movements that I would fluidly execute, I have to stop myself. This makes even trivial fights take longer, and a lot of cool tactical finesse is simply no longer a possibility.

So while chei is in fact a pretty bad god overall, my problem with chei has always been that he's simply not fun.