YASD! Simulacrum bug? (DrMo)

[Curio]

So, what the hell with simulacrums now? Heres my Draconian Monk of Zin was faring well...

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file.

9894 Jore the Martial Artist (level 11, 0/91 HPs)
             Began as a Yellow Draconian Monk on Mar 22, 2014.
             Was a High Priest of Zin.
             Slain by a four-headed hydra simulacrum (28 damage)
             ... on Level 11 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 01:05:33 (12286 turns).

Jore the Martial Artist (Yellow Draconian Monk)    Turns: 12286, Time: 01:05:33

HP   0/91        AC 11     Str 13      XL: 11   Next: 21%
MP  21/21        EV 21     Int 10      God: Zin [*****.]
Gold 570         SH  0     Dex 20      Spells:  0 memorised, 10 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .     - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   (armour unavailable)
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : +   I - +1 wizard hat (curse)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : +   o - +0 cloak {MR+} (curse)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   d - +1 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   m - amulet of clarity
Saprovore : . . .                    l - +2 ring of dexterity
                                     F - ring of protection from magic

@: slowed, very slow, very resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: spit acid, acid resistance, unfitting armour, AC +7
a: Spit Acid, Recite, Vitalisation, Imprison, Sanctuary, Renounce Religion


You were on level 11 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Zin.
Zin was extremely pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 12 of its levels.
You also visited: Sewer.

You collected 633 gold pieces.
You donated 63 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Missiles
 a - 15 darts of flame (quivered)
 e - a curare-tipped needle
 g - a dart of dispersal
Armour
 d - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
 o - a cursed +0 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 I - a cursed +1 wizard hat (worn)
 R - a +1 dwarven buckler
Magical devices
 p - a wand of flame (8)
 q - a wand of confusion (4)
 x - a wand of slowing (6)
 D - a wand of disintegration (3)
 T - a wand of slowing (6)
Comestibles
 b - 3 bread rations
 i - 2 lemons
 n - a slice of pizza
 v - a chunk of giant frog flesh
 z - 3 meat rations
 A - 19 cheeses
 K - an apple
 N - 2 chokos
 O - an apricot
 U - a pear
 W - a lychee
Scrolls
 j - 2 scrolls of identify
 k - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
 s - 2 scrolls of fog
 t - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 u - a scroll of fear
 y - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 B - a scroll of curse jewellery {unknown}
 C - a scroll of enchant weapon I
 H - a scroll of immolation {unknown}
 S - a scroll of vulnerability {unknown}
Jewellery
 f - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 l - a +2 ring of dexterity (right hand)
 m - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
 F - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
 M - an uncursed ring of invisibility
 Q - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
Potions
 c - a potion of confusion
 h - 2 potions of agility
 r - a potion of speed
 E - a potion of magic
 G - 2 potions of mutation {unknown}
 L - a potion of curing
 P - a potion of heal wounds {unknown}
 V - a potion of cure mutation {unknown}
Magical staves
 w - an uncursed staff of energy
Miscellaneous
 J - a disc of storms


   Skills:
 * Level 9,3 Fighting
 * Level 10,0 Dodging
 - Level 1,8 Stealth
 + Level 10,1 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 7,8 Invocations
 - Level 1,0 Evocations

Killed an 11-headed hydra and bunch of orcs, rested to regain full HP and then...

  Code:

Message History

HP restored.
You pay a tithe of 1 gold.
You now have 570 gold pieces (gained 6).
Things that are here:
an orcish whip; an orcish leather armour
Things that are here:
an orcish falchion; a rotting orc corpse; a rotting orc corpse
Things that are here:
an orcish hand axe; a club; an orcish chain mail; a rotting orc corpse
A four-headed hydra simulacrum comes into view.
The four-headed hydra simulacrum bites you.
The four-headed hydra simulacrum freezes you!
The four-headed hydra simulacrum misses you.
The four-headed hydra simulacrum bites you.
The four-headed hydra simulacrum freezes you!
The four-headed hydra simulacrum bites you.
The four-headed hydra simulacrum freezes you!
You feel yourself slow down.
Your bubbling green potion freezes and shatters!
You die...

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#....##.#  ##@###     #...
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##)####.#####.#.####  #...
 #)####............#  #...
 #.)...%.%..#.#.##.####.>.
 #.....#.##.....##...?....
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 #..%%.%....#......####...
 ############.######  #...

I died instantly when i stepped to adjacent tile with this bullshit.
I know that draconians "reacts poorly to cold" but man... this seems over the top. First of all, it is 4 headed hydra - 7 head less than one I slain dozen turns ago. Secondly - its simulacrum. Isn't they supposed to be weaker versions of original monster? Thirdly, Drac "metabolism" from getting cold damage suppose that i am getting slowed by this attacks, not receive additional damage. I got slowed. After i received all the damage to kill me. In 1 turn. Nice. I even dodged one attack. So it killed me in 3 bites.
Is this supposed to be this way? Dr should run from all simulacrums (or other cold-damaging monsters) till the end of the game? Or should I report this on mantis as a bug?

[blackcustard]

Isn't they supposed to be weaker versions of original monster?

No way. Simulacra are glass cannon versions of the normal monsters. They get a massive cold brand damage boost but lose HP.

11:00 <blackcustard> @??4-headed hydra
11:00 <Gretell> hydra (D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 54-90 | AC/EV:
0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res:
magic(52), poison, drown | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 976 |
Sz: Big | Int: reptile.

11:00 <blackcustard> @??hydra simulacrum
11:00 <Gretell> simulacrum (z) | Spd: 8 | HD: 13 | HP: 23-54 | AC/EV: 0/0 |
Dam: 14(cold:13-38) per head | undead, evil | Res: magic(17),
cold+++, poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: fire,
holy++ | XP: 150 | Sz: Big | Int: plant.

Dr should run from all simulacrums (or other cold-damaging monsters) till the end of the game?

I dunno anything about DR specifically, but I if I can't kill it from range easily then I run from simalcra, I run from hydras, and I sure as hell run from hydra simulcra.

[nago]

Simulacra have terrible defence and hp and can be easily killed from distance but deal an insane amount of damage - much more than the living part if you lack rc+ (I don't know it they bypass AC, but I suppose so) . Even the simulacrum of weaker monster can deal lot of punishment - much more than you can except - and meleing foo simulacra with lot/strong attack (e.g. hydras or dragons) are usually a plain suicide without rc+. Usually it's better to burn them from distance.

Your death is unfortunate and unavoidable , because from the log you hadn't even 1 turn to react, but it isn't a bug.

[Curio]

So, its intended design? Im a bit disappointed.
Such powerful monster that can oneshot melee character on 11th floor and no signs to warn player of probable outcome.
Simulacrums got buffed i suppose? Before they was just like ice zombies

[blackcustard]

EDIT: Ignore me and see below.

[Sar]

af_cold bypasses AC, but the regular attack still needs to do damage for af_cold to trigger.
Simulacra are slower than base monsters.

Edit: there was a bug that persisted for something like a year which made all af_stuff attacks never trigger. It was fixed a long time ago, but if someone's last simulacra encounters were when it existed, I can see it being a surprise.

Edit 2: The Editing:

  Code:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fcc4413 | DracoOmega | 2013-04-12 01:16:12 -0230

Fix simulacra not getting AF_COLD branded attacks
Not that they would have done anything for the last year, anyway....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d5b758e | DracoOmega | 2013-04-12 01:13:30 -0230

Fix all monster attack flavours inflicting 0 damage
This has apparently been broken for over a year now; proper messages
would be printed, but special_damage was reset before ever actually
being inflicted. Hydra simulacra and ice fiends will now be properly
dangerous in melee again.

One marginal issue remains: monsters using a magical staff that inflicts
damage with its effect will have the staff damage override any damage
from their melee flavour, but there are very few monsters with both
a melee damage flavour and the ability to use weapons, and even these
do not seem to pick said staffs up in practice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curio]

"Hydra simulacra and ice fiends will now be properly dangerous in melee again"
by properly dangerous he meant INSTANT DEATH? i would understood if i was playing caster or spriggan. but draconian monk? i dont even know.
And even so, if hydra sim is on par with ice-goddamn-fiend, what it forgot as early as 11th dungeon level? It was OOD? Or such devastating-asshole-monster should spawn around this depth?

[Sar]

Simulacra have terrible defence and hp and can be easily killed from distance

Simulacra are slower than base monsters.

[Curio]

And how should i known that before i died? Aside asking it on forums? What about players that do not use tavern? Just instadie and run from it in future runs.
I mean, there should be at least a coherent description hinting on its strong and weak sides in-game.
I would die nevertheless but i couldn't blame anyone but myself. As of now i had no idea it RAPES you instantly and had no possible way to know that

[Sar]

Well, now you know.

[rchandra]

What does a simulacrum say when you examine it? If it's not including the speed or a hint of the damage, that could be changed. If you didn't examine it, _that_ should be changed.
Testing on my local copy (a week or two old, I think) it includes the speed but no hint of the damage.

[dck]

Attack flavors should be conveyed differently by the game, I think. Right now af_cold is presented early in the form of ice beasts, but afterwards it's a parade of monsters with branded weapons that give players the idea the beast just arbitrarily dealt a lot of damage and they never care about it again, then one day they melee something that is significantly dangerous like an ettin simulacrum or an azure jelly and instantly take a crapload of damage of unclear kind.
I think just a line like "Its attack are imbued with a piercing chill." would be enough to raise awareness of the type of different threat the monster presents, which I find is just fair telling the players about, since it makes them realize things that attack naturally with cold are not the same as things with a freezing branded weapon.

[Curio]

What does a simulacrum say when you examine it? If it's not including the speed or a hint of the damage, that could be changed. If you didn't examine it, _that_ should be changed.
Testing on my local copy (a week or two old, I think) it includes the speed but no hint of the damage.

Here's the funny thing. Created similar 11 lvl DrMo in Wizmode and spawned 11-headed hydra and 4-headed hydra simulacrum. descriptions as follows

So, plain hydra have description that explains regrowing heads and overall danger. It marked extremely dangerous. I killed it with some effort.
Simulacrum have no description of it having cold attack, being frail (it described as slow though) or having enormous damage. It marked just dangerous. It killed me instantly.
What is the logic behind this? Maybe its better to address this by making better description. Something like "if you dont have rC+++ stay the fuck away!"

[Sar]

That description is here because a 4-headed hydra simulacrum is much less dangerous than a 11-headed hydra - provided you don't melee it without rC.
Probably attack flavours could be better explained somewhere in the game, though.

[Curio]

That description is here because a 4-headed hydra simulacrum is much less dangerous than a 11-headed hydra - provided you don't melee it without rC.
Probably attack flavours could be better explained somewhere in the game, though.

How should i know that it has cold attack from the description?
How should i know that it deals MASSIVE amounts of damage?
How should i know that i must not melee it... with melee character?
Better description...maybe?

[Sar]

A lot of things in Crawl could use better descriptions, I guess.

[duvessa]

Instead of all that, can we just remove simulacra/zombies/skeletons/spectral things from random generation and summons? They are completely uninteresting as enemies, and only need to exist for player spells.

[Sandman25]

I like Zombies. If there is a necromancer around, it can create zombies so I am trying to kill the necromancer ASAP. Especially great if I had Animate Skeleton.
I like Simulacra. If I am in Ice Cave and cannot kite them because of lack of space to retreat.
I like Skeletons. If I am a Venom Mage, I need to use something special to kill them.
I like Spectral Things. Fighting Ancient Lich with monster (forgot its name) who revives the Lich after it's killed is a lot of fun.

[wheals]

Sandman25: Skeletons are the only thing on your list that are "random generation" (I assume by summons he means the summon undead spell that mummies and others cast).

e: edited the post to be more clear

[duvessa]

Skeletons are the only thing on that list that are "random generation"

Dungeon:

  Code:

  {  5, 16,  999, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Tomb:

  Code:

  {  1,  5,  187, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Dis:

  Code:

  {  1,  7, 1998, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Gehenna:

  Code:

  {  1,  7, 1998, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Cocytus:

  Code:

  {  1,  7, 1914, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Tartarus:

  Code:

  {  1,  7, 1998, FLAT, MONS_ZOMBIE },

Abyss:

  Code:

  {  1,  5,  104, DOWN, MONS_ZOMBIE },

And I really should have said "remove from everything that isn't the Animate Skeleton or Animate Dead or Simulacrum or Death Channel spell, or the Animate Remains or Enslave Soul abilities, and I'm not really convinced about those either," yeah.

[wheals]

I edited my post to make it more clear: I agree that random generation of zombies/skeletons/simulacra is pretty boring (though I _think_ spectral things don't generate randomly). I was saying that the things sandman25 was saying would be true if random generation of them were removed, except for what he said about skeletons, and anyway unless the skeleton is a wyvern one a VM could either run away or wouldn't be scared of it at all.

[Sandman25]

I edited my post to make it more clear: I agree that random generation of zombies/skeletons/simulacra is pretty boring (though I _think_ spectral things don't generate randomly). I was saying that the things sandman25 was saying would be true if random generation of them were removed, except for what he said about skeletons, and anyway unless the skeleton is a wyvern one a VM could either run away or wouldn't be scared of it at all.

I don't understand what "the things sandman25 was saying would be true" means. All I said is that I like all those derived undead and tried to explain why. My whole post is always true by definition of personal opinion

[mikee]

Just in case it's not clear, part of the reason why this happened is that you walked into it (for emphasis: you walked *into* something with hydra in its name with a lair level character instead of waiting for it to walk into you), which allowed it to hit you and get two consecutive attacks on you by slowing you. Even without the cold damage, I don't think anybody would be too shocked about being killed by walking directly into an 8-headed hydra with some xl 11 character - its maximum damage is well over 100.

I'm also a little bit confused about this 11-headed hydra that turned out to be so easy for you - how did it get 11 heads?

[TheArcanist]

Just in case it's not clear, part of the reason why this happened is that you walked into it (for emphasis: you walked *into* something with hydra in its name with a lair level character instead of waiting for it to walk into you), which allowed it to hit you and get two consecutive attacks on you by slowing you. Even without the cold damage, I don't think anybody would be too shocked about being killed by walking directly into an 8-headed hydra with some xl 11 character - its maximum damage is well over 100.

I'm also a little bit confused about this 11-headed hydra that turned out to be so easy for you - how did it get 11 heads?

Apparently, he was just autoexploring and rounded a corner - then BAM, hydra simulacrum. Didn't even have a turn to react.

How that hydra got so many heads intrigues me too - draconians don't have claws, at least not intrinsically.

[Curio]

Just in case it's not clear, part of the reason why this happened is that you walked into it (for emphasis: you walked *into* something with hydra in its name with a lair level character instead of waiting for it to walk into you), which allowed it to hit you and get two consecutive attacks on you by slowing you. Even without the cold damage, I don't think anybody would be too shocked about being killed by walking directly into an 8-headed hydra with some xl 11 character - its maximum damage is well over 100.

I'm also a little bit confused about this 11-headed hydra that turned out to be so easy for you - how did it get 11 heads?

Yup I walked into simulacrum myself BUT it killed me in 1 turn anyways (4 attacks in a log from 4-headed sim-hydra), so nothing would have changed even if it came to me - i probably just smacked it with my fist once, and then died on its turn. And i'm already explained why i walked into it without a second thought - i just killed 11-headed hydra (with xl 11 character) and from what i remembered simulacras didnt had so much damage (couple years ago).
11-headed hydra just spawned there - i didnt increase number of its heads. And it was not easy - I just had time to react. It damaged me on 1/3 of my HP - i quaffed potions, i was buffed a bit with another potion and vitalised with Zin's ability. It wasn't easy but in a fight with it i never was "near-death". The other fucker instakilled me.

[and into]

If blade traps were still around (even if only in some specific vaults or something) in 0.13.0 then that's probably what caused the 11-headed hydra.