xxx


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dck

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Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Saturday, 28th December 2013, 23:16

xxx

Note that the above is stupid and only true in very very few corner cases.
Mi already have superb aptitudes to reach the practical peak of offense and defense very early and picking up spells (haste is a spell) is something to consider (and not necessarily when you're completely stablished with massive offense and defense).

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Arrhythmia, duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:04

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

Note the above is stupid and only true in very few corner cases.
By the time you consider training Haste your Armour/Dodging/Fighting should be at least 15 and the biggest 2h weapon you could find should be at min delay.

Examples of Mi with 3 runes:

  Code:
 + Level 26.7 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Staves
 O Level 27 Crossbows
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 - Level 17.4 Armour
 - Level 21.0 Dodging
 - Level 4.0 Stealth
 - Level 5.3 Evocations


or

  Code:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 - Level 16.9 Maces & Flails
 - Level 16.0 Staves
 - Level 3.1 Throwing
 - Level 17.0 Armour
 - Level 22.2 Dodging
 + Level 12.4 Stealth
 - Level 5.2 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.0 Necromancy
 - Level 7.0 Translocations
 - Level 10.3 Evocations


dck, please let me know if you insist it was stupid training.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:17

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

For the experience it takes to go from 22 -> 27 crossbows, you could easily have gone from 0 -> 18 charms.

So, yeah, a little stupid.

e: Being presented with the fact that he was a trogolodyte with /hasting, I would like to officially and formally tell Sandman to fuck off for lying by omission.
Last edited by Arrhythmia on Sunday, 29th December 2013, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.
take it easy

Dungeon Master

Posts: 33

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 08:38

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:21

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

Sandman25 wrote:Note the above is stupid and only true in very few corner cases.
By the time you consider training Haste your Armour/Dodging/Fighting should be at least 15 and the biggest 2h weapon you could find should be at min delay.

Examples of Mi with 3 runes:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
 + Level 26.7 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Staves
 O Level 27 Crossbows
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 - Level 17.4 Armour
 - Level 21.0 Dodging
 - Level 4.0 Stealth
 - Level 5.3 Evocations


or

  Code:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 - Level 16.9 Maces & Flails
 - Level 16.0 Staves
 - Level 3.1 Throwing
 - Level 17.0 Armour
 - Level 22.2 Dodging
 + Level 12.4 Stealth
 - Level 5.2 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.0 Necromancy
 - Level 7.0 Translocations
 - Level 10.3 Evocations

dck, please let me know if you insist it was stupid training.


I'd say it is decent training for a Troglodyte and a dude with /haste.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:32

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

1-1 so far. dck?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:38

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

Arrhythmia wrote:For the experience it takes to go from 22 -> 27 crossbows, you could easily have gone from 0 -> 18 charms.


Yes, it looks so. Mi have -4 aptitude in Charms and +2 in Crossbows. So 22->27 Crossbows takes about 400.000 points, 0-18 Charms takes 410.090 points

  Code:
   // level      xp      delta   delta2
    // =====   =======    =====   ======
    //   1           0        0       0
    //   2          10       10      10
    //   3          30       20      10
    //   4          70       40      20
    //   5         140       70      30
    //   6         270      130      60
    //   7         520      250     120
    //   8        1010      490     240
    //   9        1980      970     480
    //  10        3910     1930     960
    //  11        7760     3850    1920
    //  12       15450     7690    3840
    //  13       26895    11445    3755
    //  14       45585    18690    7245
    //  15       72745    27160    8470
    //  16      108375    35630    8470
    //  17      152475    44100    8470
    //  18      205045    52570    8470
    //  19      266085    61040    8470
    //  20      335595    69510    8470
    //  21      413575    77980    8470
    //  22      500025    86450    8470
    //  23      594945    94920    8470
    //  24      698335    103390   8470
    //  25      810195    111860   8470
    //  26      930525    120330   8470
    //  27     1059325    128800   8470

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:50

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

Enough of this bullshit sandman, stop trying to derail every god damn thread you touch into an argument about how everyone is wrong and you are right.
What you posted is a Troglodyte with /haste. The advice you posted earlier was stupid.
Yes, I would assume such a character doesn't want to have much to do with charms. It also has absolutely nothing to do the the OP's MiFi^Yred, is nothing but malicious vile spewed with no other purpose than instigating hostily and adds absolutely nothing to help the OP, who hopefully can figure out how to train a berserker by himself.
Enough is enough.

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Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 00:55

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

dck wrote:Enough of this bullshit sandman, stop trying to derail every god damn thread you touch into an argument about how everyone is wrong and you are right.
What you posted is a Troglodyte with /haste. The advice you posted earlier was stupid.
Yes, I would assume such a character doesn't want to have much to do with charms. It also has absolutely nothing to do the the OP's MiFi^Yred, is nothing but malicious vile spewed with no other purpose than instigating hostily and adds absolutely nothing to help the OP, who hopefully can figure out how to train a berserker by himself.
Enough is enough.


You know, it wasn't me who started it and actually it is you who is always trying to prove I am wrong, not vice versa. You can see it even in this thread. Yes, you guessed it right, those 2 examples are your only Mi wins which I could find and I believe it is weird that you advise one way while playing your games in exactly opposite way.

Edit. The same applies to minmay of course:
  Code:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Axes
 O Level 27 Armour
 + Level 22.3 Dodging
 - Level 1.5 Stealth
 - Level 4.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 2.9 Conjurations
 - Level 15.1 Invocations
 - Level 21.4 Evocations


Though it "Was the Champion of Okawaru" so as you can see he preferred to train everything to 27 despite Heroism and not training Haste or any other spells.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/minma ... 211350.txt

Edit2. dck, you forgot to explain your only non-Trog win with Mi (it was second example)

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 01:10

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

Oh you little devil. Hadn't looked at the actually posted guys in detail and forgot to double check.
Anyway, training cannot be judged without further understanding of the character (so actually linking to the morgue and seeing what they had, not being a facetious jerk) and you posting my MiCK and MiHu doesn't really do much to make your case of really bad advice look better.
The MiHu was ^Trog and he is well trained, the CK didn't bother getting haste castable. The CK was trained with orbruntomb in mind and eventually didn't do it because how boring Mi are just got to me.

But as I said, enough of this bullshit. I have no reason to explain how I actually play or train my characters to you, nor do I have any reason to explain obvious things like having stronk characters and being a good player means you can skip a lot of things and play in ways that are different from the optimal and still work with little effort.
If you keep looking at my other recent CKs some of them won't have spells (I think the MiCK casted little or nothing in the end) and they still had an easy time.
That is perfectly normal because crawl isn't a game that demands perfect execution or anything close to be beaten, but when people are new and ask for help they're often doing really really poorly, so it's best to actually try to help them as much as you can instead of going "oh I don't think you should get spells as a Mi because look at those apts" when you can perfectly learn spells as Mi and will indeed have an overall stronger character.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 01:16

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

That starts looking like a civilized dialogue, I am surpised I have not found bad words about me.
New player don't really understand when start training spells and I gave advice based on my experience. Yes, I can repeat
"I believe Mi are easier if they don't have any spells, at least in 3 rune games". Have you noticed the word "believe" here? I have wins with Mi who had spells and who didn't and I found the spell-less easier.
If you had different experience, you could share your opinion. Calling experience of other "stupid" is ... well, not very wise.
By the way, I had similar experience with HO - I couldn't win HO of Beough until I stopped training any spells until very late in the game. Having castable Haste in Vaults killed me because my defenses were worse than those of HO without spells which I played next.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Sunday, 29th December 2013, 01:18

Re: CIP: MiFi of Yred

For pity's sake people don't turn YASD into another GDD. Put each other on your enemies list so you don't have to see each others' posts. xxx, sorry I locked your thread, pm me and I can split it into a new one for you.

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