CIP: DECj Looking for spell training advice

[Siegurt]

So here's the story, I'm playing a Cj, and am training up to use the Freezing cloud/BoC I'm not *terribly* far along and I get a book of Fire drop.

Now If I had enough points in Ice magic that I'd actually brought Freezing cloud online (~8-10) I'd probably just ignore this book and move along until I got spells appropriate for my existing skills, but I'm still pretty early in the game, and the spells in the book of fire could last me pretty well into the end game.

  Code:

HP  45/45        AC 12     Str  8      XL: 9   Next: 47%
MP  26/26        EV 12     Int 21      God: Vehumet [......]
Gold 198         SH 11     Dex 15      Spells:  5 memorised,  3 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   a - orc trident (freeze)
Res.Cold  : + + .   Warding    : .   h - +2 leather armour {rC+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   m - +1 buckler
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   n - +0 helmet
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   B - +0 pair of gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   t - +0 pair of boots (curse)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .   Levitation : .   H - ring of protection from cold

Books
 c - a book of Conjurations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Throw Frost                       Conjuration/Ice              2
   *Mephitic Cloud                    Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   *Lightning Bolt                    Conjuration/Air              5
   Bolt of Cold                       Conjuration/Ice              6
   *Freezing Cloud                    Conjuration/Ice/Air          6
 f - a book of Fire   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fire Brand                         Charms/Fire                  2
   Ignite Poison                      Fire/Transmutation           5
   Fireball                           Conjuration/Fire             5
   Bolt of Fire                       Conjuration/Fire             6
   Delayed Fireball                   Conjuration/Fire             7
   Ring of Flames                     Charms/Fire                  7
   Dragon Form                        Fire/Transmutation           7


   Skills:
   Level 2.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 2.0 Armour
 - Level 2.4 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 4.0 Shields
 - Level 6.4 Spellcasting
 * Level 7.6 Conjurations
 - Level 5.5 Ice Magic
 - Level 5.2 Air Magic
 - Level 3.0 Poison Magic


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Throw Frost           Conj/Ice       #####..      1%          2    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #####....    6%          3    ##.....
F - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #####.....   98%         6    ######.
L - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       #####.....   24%         5    #####..




So the question is, is it worth it to switch? 5.5 levels of -3 training of Fire magic isn't *terrible* xp wise, certainly not in the long run, But in the middle-to-short run, It's going to be a while before I can use those spells.

I can probably get Lighting bolt down to the "easy to cast" range just by continuing to push conjurations, but I don't think I will be able to do that for Freezing cloud for a LONG time, and I don't know if I'll need it before I get those fire spells online. And of course the longer I waffle, the longer it is until I start pushing that fire magic up to a useful level, if I'm gonna switch.

[crate]

Why don't you just train ice and air ... it's not like you're waiting on finding better ice conjurations, since two of the three best ones in the game are in your starting book (fcloud, bolt of cold, I'd say the third is refrigeration).

[KoboldLord]

Really, you can do whichever you want. Lightning Bolt should be usable as soon as you get Vehumet's wizardry bonus, which happens at two pips. Really soon. Rushing for Freezing Cloud is probably the simplest progression and will be completely reliable, but if you really want to use the new book you found just because it really strikes your fancy, it isn't like it would be hard to re-train to fire. At this point either way will get you 3 or 15 Runes as reliably as any other build in the game.

I can't think of any actual positive reason to re-train to fire except maybe a tournament banner or something, but it wouldn't be at all difficult if you decided to do so anyway.

Note that there is very little value in training armour skill if all you have for the multiplier to work on is some +2 leather and a couple +0 peripherals. Any xp that goes there this early is better spent in ice magic, conjurations, fighting, dodging, or stealth.

[Siegurt]

Well, I often train a few points of armour early, just so I can use -1 EV penalty armor with a shield and still have no spellcasting penalty, 3 points of armor and 5 in shields is a pretty minimal investment at this point (I actually just turned them on and am about to turn them back off again)

I guess I just have a concern about Freezing cloud/Lightning bolt not being the most useful long term, but I suppose more of the "hard" critters have rF than have rC (undead being a notable exception)

I have, however, had several games where I just never got any of the top-tier ice spells, which made me sad. I'll stick with ice for now, and if I get something else that pulls me in another direction I'll re-evaluate.

[KoboldLord]

Freezing Cloud will get you about eight Runes almost all by itself. It is only true that it isn't so useful in the long-term if by 'long-term' you're specifically referring to the part of the game where you have Ice Storm and a crystal ball of energy with the relevant skills maxed. It's bordering on overpowered in a way that none of the fire spells do, and it's only within the bounds of reason because it's too expensive for most characters to make usable.

[crate]

By the way when I said best ice conjurations in the game I was including ice storm, and I don't think it's one of the top three: the investment is too large for the returns to come close to matching what you get for bolt of cold/fcloud/refrigeration. You are in fact guaranteed some of the top-tier ice spells when you pick cj ... they're in the book of conjurations.

[BlackSheep]

I guess I just have a concern about Freezing cloud/Lightning bolt not being the most useful long term, but I suppose more of the "hard" critters have rF than have rC (undead being a notable exception).

Undead will die to freezing cloud just fine. You might need two casts of it instead of one, but it's still an effective tool against the vast majority of foes.

[crate]

You can also pick up a weapon and press tab against undead. The vast majority of them are no threat to ever kill you.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, I think I've figured out why I die as a spellcaster so often, it's just an attention thing. One or two false moves with a melee char is much less likely to kill you than it is with a spell caster.

I got this char up to level 15, was picking my way down in the lair with no troubles, when around a corner came a fire crab, Up to this point everything had been dying with no troubles, and I haven't encountered lots of Fire crabs in the past, but I have this vague recollection in the back of my head told me they weren't something I usually met in the lair, but that I don't recall having major problems with them.

I put a freezing cloud on him, and he blasted me, from 78 to 38 in one shot, Um, ick. I have control Teleport and blink memorized and stepping one square to the right should put me out of his LOS for at least a turn while I try to get away....... Step to the right one square and he takes one step and blasts me dead.

If I'd stepped *diagnoally* to the the right, I would've been out of his LOS for one turn but I hit the wrong key, spellcaster go splat.

As I'm looking over my death screen, I recall that the last time I actually faced one of these it was with a MnGl who had rF++ and over 200 hps. I should've taken the time to look up the damn thing instead of relying on sketchy vague recollections. *sigh*

And yeah, it's not the average zombie I'm worried about it's that Guardian mummy, Lich, or pack of Skeleton warriors or Wights I seem to inevitably encounter when I'm playing a character with no efficient way to kill them, sometime in the level 10-15 range.

(Actuall the wights don't scare me so much as annoy me when they drain the crap out of my XP)