YA not really SD: This is why I don't play casters

[tasonir]

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10.0 character file.

18587 Tasonir the Thaumaturge (level 12, -2/59 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Conjurer on Feb 21, 2012.
             Was a High Priest of Vehumet.
             Killed from afar by Jozef (43 damage)
             ... with a bolt of poison
             
             ... on Level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
             The game lasted 01:34:28 (15480 turns).

Tasonir the Thaumaturge (Deep Elf Conjurer)        Turns: 15480, Time: 01:34:29

HP  -2/59        AC  9     Str  8      XL: 12   Next: 23%
MP   7/34        EV 18     Int 23      God: Vehumet [*****.]
Gold 334         SH 20     Dex 19      Spells: 11 memorised,  3 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .    x - +0 quarterstaff
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  E - +2 orc robe
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +    t - +0 orc shield
Res.Acid. : + . .   Res.Corr.  : +    (no helmet)
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    e - +1 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (no gloves)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    I - +2 pair of dwarf boots
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    (no amulet)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    (no ring)
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    r - +4 ring of dexterity

@: mildly poisoned, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion


You were on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and saw 14 of its levels.
You visited 2 portal chambers: ossuary, ice cave.

   Skills:
 - Level 2.1 Staves
 - Level 9.6 Dodging
 - Level 2.4 Stealth
 + Level 7.1 Shields
 + Level 13.8 Spellcasting
 - Level 9.4 Conjurations
 - Level 1.7 Charms
 - Level 1.8 Translocations
 - Level 7.7 Ice Magic
 - Level 9.5 Air Magic
 - Level 2.0 Poison Magic


You had 3 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #####        1%          1    None
b - Throw Frost           Ice/Conj       #######      1%          2    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Pois/Air/Conj  ######...    1%          3    None
d - Lightning Bolt        Air/Conj       #######...   1%          5    Strawberry
e - Apportation           Tloc           ####......   4%          1    None
f - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          8%          2    None
g - Freezing Cloud        Ice/Air/Conj   #######...   10%         6    Honeycomb
h - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      ####......   38%         4    None
i - Abjuration            Summ           ####......   8%          3    None
j - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #######..    1%          4    None
k - Summon Elemental      Summ           ####......   36%         4    None


I don't really feel this one was that silly. I mean I wasn't quite at 100% health having just fought off a player ghost, but Josef blasting me for just over 2/3 of my max health in one spell (which would do a lot of poison damage afterwards)...it just seems like the deck is stacked against casters. I realize deep elves aren't exactly known for their high health, but ouch. Maybe I'm just spoiled by deep dwarf berserkers. I don't really see a race that has both high spell aptitudes as well as high health...

On an unrelated note, what's the generic caster weapon? I used staff just because De's have 0 apt and I figured I might one day use an enhancer, but it's hard to mix that with a shield. Should I take whips or short blades instead?

[TehDruid]

My friend, as a fellow fan of TAB-ing I feel your pain. I've been literally struggling to get a caster off the ground this week but to no avail. All my squishy DEs die around Temple Depth cause they either can't cope with monsters due to spell power (magic crapdart i'm looking at you). I've come to realize that Sandblast is awesome when you wield stones and you can get some games where you can be really lucky with finding a shitload of those but sometimes you won't. I don't really know, my Wizards fail miserably...

[Jabberwocky]

My friend, as a fellow fan of TAB-ing I feel your pain. I've been literally struggling to get a caster off the ground this week but to no avail. All my squishy DEs die around Temple Depth cause they either can't cope with monsters due to spell power (magic crapdart i'm looking at you). I've come to realize that Sandblast is awesome when you wield stones and you can get some games where you can be really lucky with finding a shitload of those but sometimes you won't. I don't really know, my Wizards fail miserably...

At temple depth you don't have mephetic cloud online? As a wizard I always try to get mephetic cloud as soon as I can. Very useful spell for dealing with gnolls, centaurs, ogres, Sigmund, orc priest, etc.

[TehDruid]

Meph? Sure, but it's a bit expensive food wise early on, and you're torn between leveling spellcasting to get to hungerless and spell success. Centaurs can shoot you before you can use it and you may also get unlucky with miscasts at crucial situations. But yes it's very useful, I'll admit that. It also tends to keep Xom amused!

My most successful caster has been a Mummy Wizard spamming summon Imps and Mephitic (imps are immune to poison). Quite a fun combo. You can do it with ice beast too I guess, and use poison cloud/freezing cloud if you want to help your summons. Mummies don't have to worry about hunger, mostly spell levels so they don't really have to rush spellcasting a lot early. Of course their apts suck immensely...

[pivotal]

Meph? Sure, but it's a bit expensive food wise early on, and you're torn between leveling spellcasting to get to hungerless and spell success.

Spell success is always more important than spell hunger.

[tormodpwns]

On an unrelated note, what's the generic caster weapon? I used staff just because De's have 0 apt and I figured I might one day use an enhancer, but it's hard to mix that with a shield. Should I take whips or short blades instead?

Anything with a good brand early on to kill stuff your spells can't deal with. Electrocution is good because its damage is not relative to weapon skill or anything. Try to get a branded short blade for high accuracy without investing in weapon skill. On the same track, don't be afraid to use EW1's.

For a later, end game item, try to find protection, because that +5 AC is an amazing boon. Or any randart with nice attributes.

Staff + shield is OK because you shouldn't be fighting anyways (although once I had a randart quarterstaff with electrocution, and I chose to drop my shield for it. But that's a special case in which my weapon was actually very good).

[eharper256]

On an unrelated note, what's the generic caster weapon? I used staff just because De's have 0 apt and I figured I might one day use an enhancer, but it's hard to mix that with a shield. Should I take whips or short blades instead?

Don't worry about -1 and -2 aptitudes, by the way. Only at -3 or worse should you really think twice about training a skill. Sure, you'll get there slower, but high weaponskill is rarely needed for most circumstances.

Staves are... good for their accuracy, but are mainly there for you to use the various channeling and enhancer effects. A basic staff weapontype is barely outdamaging a dagger in melee, but are 20% slower, so are probably worse. Quarterstaff is much better for actual fighting, but you don't get Quarterstaves of Energy, sadly.

Whips and Shortblades, as you say, are decent alternatives. Alot of my casters eventually end up with Quickblades or Demonwhips. However, I also had an Air Elementalist with a Randart Trident, so really, don't feel the need to restrict yourself.

[Jabberwocky]

Meph? Sure, but it's a bit expensive food wise early on, and you're torn between leveling spellcasting to get to hungerless and spell success.

Spell success is always more important than spell hunger.

I agree. I would much see the message "you are feeling hungry" than the message "you die".

[rebthor]

Meph? Sure, but it's a bit expensive food wise early on, and you're torn between leveling spellcasting to get to hungerless and spell success.

Spell success is always more important than spell hunger.

I agree. I would much see the message "you are feeling hungry" than the message "you die".

More like "you miscast foo. Your hair stands on end. The yak gores you, the yak gores you. You die."

[Jabberwocky]

More like "you miscast foo. Your hair stands on end. The yak gores you, the yak gores you. You die."

That's why you want a high success rate rather than low hunger cost.

[Midpoint]

Staff + shield is OK because you shouldn't be fighting anyways

This definitely worked for me. Melee range is where bad things happen to DEs. In my last game, I didn't start using melee until Pan, when I finally found a staff of cold. At that point, I was tired of wasting MP on imps and other Pan trash and had already invested the XP in evocations.

Admittedly, I held onto a branded dagger or any one-handed weapon of speed until I found my staff of conjuration, so your-mileage-may-vary.

[Wereox]

I found that training Stealth on deep elf casters is vital to that kind of YASD not happening. Being able to back off from bad fights is useful - and so is being able to get close enough to Mephitic Cloud immediately.

[BlackSheep]

Seconded, picking your fights and the ground you fight on is very valuable. If you spy a tough enemy from far away, it can be useful to back off and explore the area around it looking for better approaches and more avenues of escape.