Annoyed


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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 311

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 2nd August 2018, 15:01

Annoyed

So, I had a frustrating game. A gnoll, high level, well-rounded. I'd cleared most of the game except some extended areas. I was in Zot and died on level 3 or 4. Here's what happened:

I came down stairs, everything was asleep, so I thought I'd try to start stabbing some stuff and not wake up the whole level at once. This took me several paces away from the stairs. Monsters woke up before I got a stab in, and made a ton of noise, so now half the level all started closing in on me (although I couldn't see immediately just how badly.) I took a swing or two before I realized, I should just get out. I headed back for the stairs.

I made it to the stairs, but, wounded, mana drained from a ghost moth, deflect stripped from a quicksilver, and constricted .

I considered my options:
Climb out of the level -> failed, due to constriction
Use Zin sanctuary -> I was stripped of all mana by a ghost moth
Kill stuff -> Incoming damage was too high to last because I was wearing artefact +2 fire dragon armour (lower AC than usual) and constriction was messing with my evasion
Blink scroll -> would be uncontrolled, likely landing me in just as much trouble but then away from the stairs
Teleport scroll -> Incoming damage was too fast to even have a turn to use it, let alone survive it going off
Invisibility -> Too much could still see me, plus I was constricted
Heal Potions -> pray that I don't receive too much damage and buy at least one more extra turn, but no, incoming damage is too fast

Maybe if I had quaffed a brilliance potion and had tornado and probably also Mahkleb or TSO, I might have survived. Short of that, I would have needed to not have ventured away from the stairs.

Here are the lessons not learned, but reinforced:
1) Don't be fooled, there is no substitute for super high AC combined with resists from gear
2) Stealth sucks, in fact it is dangerous. Had this been an extremely loud character of TSO with lots more AC, it would have been perfectly viable to start killing stuff from the stairs and stair-dance in the worst of case scenarios. I got lulled in by gnoll's multiple aptitudes.
3) The game throws so many disabling effects and damage at you, while you can pull off most strategies most of the time, in the final equation, high AC, resists, MR, lots of strength, an axe and a god with life on kill are the only things you can consistently rely upon. Had the character retreated up the stairs sooner, that wouldn't have cleared the mess waiting below. A character needs to be able to stand and fight for real consistency.
4) While there are some powerful spells that could have made a difference, like tornado or firestorm, ignition, etc. even those options could have been fouled by silence potentially, and.. oh right, I had all my mana stripped away anyhow. Having those things and being able to have high AC is also difficult. So, pretty much the game balance overall is shot to hell.

Gargoyle in gold dragon armour with a broad axe worshipping TSO. YAWN, there's where this game is at for consistency. I wish it weren't true, I wish the tactics and races could be more varied and more equivalent, but they aren't. Only corrosion poses a danger to AC, and disarm to melee (but it was yanked out.)

I don't see anything changing soon, because, nothing is wrong... and I'm totally clueless...… ….. I may need suggestions for some new games.

bel

Dis Charger

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2018, 15:22

Re: Annoyed

Are you annoyed that your death was unfair in some way? Or what exactly?

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 311

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 2nd August 2018, 15:27

Re: Annoyed

bel wrote:Are you annoyed that your death was unfair in some way? Or what exactly?


I'm annoyed because I feel like the formula for consistent success with the game is so one dimensional. There are all these spells and creative tactics, but out of it all, nothing is more effective overall than the most basic of strategies. I want more game balance. Repeating a simplistic strategy for the most consistent results, or being punished with not always, but more often and overall unfair feeling results for relying on other tactics is frustrating. The more diverse a game can be, and balanced between varied tactics, the more interesting and fun I find a game. I like crawl a lot, which is why I get more worked up about the shortcomings I perceive.

It feels like it's been worked on so hard to prevent any form of kiting, skirting around being killed, creative tactics... plugged so airtight that you're guaranteed to die X % of the time, that it has backfired and instead of making the game interesting because you can't use "degenerate" tactics that it's now actually punishing unless you only use "boring" tactics. Sorry I know that's not a great explanation, but my keyboard is concurrently under assault by a rugrat.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8426

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Post Thursday, 2nd August 2018, 16:54

Re: Annoyed

Yes, if your tactic for dealing with a lot of monsters is to charge towards them, then axes will seem much better than other weapons. However, there are lots of options other than charging towards multiple monsters.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 03:40

Re: Annoyed

High AC does not help that much in zot, I've lost several characters in GDA and CPA. It's just we should start thinking instead of mindlessly retreating to stairs.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 03:54

Re: Annoyed

I'm also wondering what the hell disarm is.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 04:36

Re: Annoyed

I agree with you, stabbing is not strong enough. There are two basic characters that work consistently: brute, and blaster mage. You can play other things for variety, but they won't work as well.

Having watched the tv, that was a bit of a raw deal. However, there are things you could have done that would probably have saved your life. Trying to escape a bad situation by climbing stairs while constricted is rarely a good plan - better to first blink away, as soon as your health dropped below 50%. Then you can take an action such as quaffing haste and running for corridors (using your wand of digging if necessary), quaffing invisibility which would protect you against several of the monsters, or teleporting. You also died with a potion of magic, you might have been able to use the potion of magic for Zin sanctuary.

But the first problem was just when that first death cob approached. Death cobs are nasty, and the fact it was coming at you from the direction of the stairs should have been instantly alarming. Sometimes a single death cob will take half my health in zot.

There was an earlier warning sign, when you came downstairs and there were 2 storm dragons from opposite directions. That was already an iffy situation, because it automatically is going to make it harder to retreat back up the stairs - storm dragons can trample you off the stairs, too. Always better to fight against enemies coming from only 1 direction. Also better to fight in corridors, and that was a big open area.

I have
  Code:
force_more_message += .* comes? into view

in my rcfile so that if more monsters appear while I'm already fighting, I'm more likely to notice them. This helps prevent me from tabbing while the situation is rapidly deteriorating.
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Spider Stomper

Posts: 212

Joined: Monday, 3rd April 2017, 11:44

Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 14:13

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:I'm also wondering what the hell disarm is.
There used to be an nonrandart short blade artefact called Captain's Cutlass that could disarm.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 17:08

Re: Annoyed

Yes, but since svendre said "Only corrosion poses a danger to AC, and disarm to melee", I thought they must have been referring to something that can happen to a player. Monsters couldn't use the cutlass's disarm ability.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 212

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 17:40

Re: Annoyed

I see sorry, my mistake. I thought youw as asking what disarm was, not how it relates to posing a danger to melee.

Anyways, I would say that at depths and zot, trying to stab anything sleeping is just risky as those levels seems to be packed full of enemies. I think there are some special levels with 80+ monsters on the level. Stealth is still useful, trying to stab is not.
Really though, you died becuase you tried to stab in Zot. Its unfair to blame not playing heal on kill AC Ax, as if you just went out blasting with your spells, you wouldn't had died probably


Oh well svendre, at least you didn't lose just lose a very promising DGFe with +10 eveningstar and +12 crystal armour and +8 AC ring in Zot to poison because you was tabbing mindlessly and had no potions of curing.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 18:14

Re: Annoyed

The indicator for stealth stabbing isn't number of monsters on the level so much as number of stealth checks you have to make. For stealth, a level with good terrain and tons of monsters is better than an open level with few monsters.

Let's say you want to stab a pack of 5 yaks, and the chance of a yak noticing you each turn is 2%. Well, you can just charge 6 squares towards them, right? They probably won't notice you! But no, that's not how it works. If you give one of those yaks 6 stealth checks, your chance of being noticed is about 11.5%. If you give 5 yaks 6 stealth checks, that's a total of 30 checks, and your chance of being noticed is about 45.5%. (The first one that wakes up is very likely to bellow and wake up the rest.)

Even against a single monster, spending many turns in its LOS will quickly ensure that it notices you. A 10% chance to be noticed each turn translates to a 65% chance to be noticed after 10 turns.

If you want to do stealth stabbing, you need terrain. You can't charge monsters from the edge of LOS and you certainly can't charge multiple monsters. It's simply not an option on open levels unless you have cloak of the thief. As it happens, the new Zot level generator always makes open levels.

The conclusion here shouldn't "stabbing is awful" but "stabbing without hexes is awful". Because hexes let you stab a monster even if it woke up, either by putting it back to sleep or just by confusing it. Invisibility also changes detection chance from [like 25-40]/stealth into 1/stealth, so stealth stabs against non-SInv monsters become reliable as long as you don't try to do them against large packs. And Darkness is just an amazing spell in general.

I think that stealth is extremely overrated by the player base as a whole, and hexes are extremely underrated by the player base as a whole. I could make some wild extrapolation about players thinking stabbing is awful because they think hexes are awful so they try to stab without hexes which doesn't work because they're overrating stealth so much, but really I don't think that's true, I think hex characters are just not fun to play for most people, and that translates into a lot of players thinking they are weak (see: everyone who thinks summoning is weak).
Last edited by duvessa on Friday, 3rd August 2018, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5851

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 18:16

Re: Annoyed

Plantissue wrote:I see sorry, my mistake. I thought youw as asking what disarm was, not how it relates to posing a danger to melee.

Anyways, I would say that at depths and zot, trying to stab anything sleeping is just risky as those levels seems to be packed full of enemies. I think there are some special levels with 80+ monsters on the level. Stealth is still useful, trying to stab is not.
Really though, you died becuase you tried to stab in Zot. Its unfair to blame not playing heal on kill AC Ax, as if you just went out blasting with your spells, you wouldn't had died probably


Oh well svendre, at least you didn't lose just lose a very promising DGFe with +10 eveningstar and +12 crystal armour and +8 AC ring in Zot to poison because you was tabbing mindlessly and had no potions of curing.

Technically the problem was not trying to stab things, it was trying *to sneak up on them using stealth and adding any additional risk by doing so* (in this case the extra risk was in the form of unexplored tiles). You can sneak up on things if it adds no risk, and you can always stab things just fine, as long as stab means "I'm going to do a melee attack and get to do extra damage, keeping in mind all the normal things I need to keep in mind when doing a regular non-stabby melee attack"
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 18:50

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:The indicator for stealth stabbing isn't number of monsters on the level so much as number of stealth checks you have to make.

Let's say you want to stab a pack of 5 yaks, and the chance of a yak noticing you each turn is 2%. Well, you can just charge 6 squares towards them, right? They probably won't notice you! But no, that's not how it works. If you give one of those yaks 6 stealth checks, your chance of being noticed is about 11.5%. If you give 5 yaks 6 stealth checks, that's a total of 30 checks, and your chance of being noticed is about 45.5%. (The first one that wakes up is very likely to bellow and wake up the rest.)

Even against a single monster, spending many turns in its LOS will quickly ensure that it notices you. A 10% chance to be noticed each turn translates to a 65% chance to be noticed after 10 turns.

If you want to do stealth stabbing, you need terrain. You can't charge monsters from the edge of LOS and you certainly can't charge multiple monsters. It's simply not an option on open levels unless you have cloak of the thief. As it happens, the new Zot level generator always makes open levels.

The conclusion here shouldn't "stabbing is awful" but "stabbing without hexes is awful". Because hexes let you stab a monster even if it woke up, either by putting it back to sleep or just by confusing it. Invisibility also changes detection chance from [like 25-40]/stealth into 1/stealth, so stealth stabs against non-SInv monsters become reliable as long as you don't try to do them against large packs. And Darkness is just an amazing spell in general.

I think that stealth is extremely overrated by the player base as a whole, and hexes are extremely underrated by the player base as a whole. I could make some wild extrapolation about players thinking stabbing is awful because they think hexes are awful so they try to stab without hexes which doesn't work because they're overrating stealth so much, but really I don't think that's true, I think hex characters are just not fun to play for most people, and that translates into a lot of players thinking they are weak (see: everyone who thinks summoning is weak).

I have always thought that was a weird stance, hexes clear about 75-80% of the game, how is that weak?

Also Invis matters less to me for the reduced chance of waking things up (I'm of the opinion that if I ever confidently think "I can walk up to something with my stealth and stab it" that I will be wrong, better paranoia than death), than it does for the free stabs you get even against things that are awake. You can +0 dagger stab an entire awake draconian pack to death on a single invis cast, with pretty reasonably skill investment (it compares favorably to the amount of XP it takes to wade through an entire drac pack with say heavy armour and a big axe) It's even cheaper if you get an evocable instead of the spell. And stabbing+hexes with WuJian compares favorably with melee using Oka, as another example.

Stealth isn't *bad* on it's own, it's just not a solution for a large portion of the game like hexes are. What it does do on it's own, when used properly, is reduce the *number* of dangerous situations you face, it doesn't reduce the danger of dangerous situations (Like being stronger in combat does) it just reduces your odds of facing a bad situation, which in turn saves you using as many get out of jail free cards, which helps make sure you have enough for when you need them. I think when stealth is underrated, it's underrated because people don't treat it like a danger mitigator, and when it's overrated, it's because people treat it like it's a primary offense (Which it's not)

The problem becomes when you try to turn stealth (on it's own) into your primary tool for dealing with a dangerous situation, it doesn't do that well, and that ultimately adds rather than removes risk. And even when used appropriately it doesn't eliminate all possibility of getting into dangerous situations, it just reduces their frequency, as such it's a good supporting skill for some builds. Trying to use stealth as your primary building block for a character is possible, but fraught with peril.
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 311

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 23:45

Re: Annoyed

Thanks to people that didn't tear me a new one. I was certainly not in the best of moods having posted that immediately after the death. For the record, I want to say that I know that death was my fault. I 100% absolutely could have avoided it had I done things differently, and in fact I knew those things. My assessment overall boiled down to, I relied on stealth to try to gain advantage by thinning out monsters on the level without waking them all up at once. In doing that, I put myself at greater risk. Stealth is effective with ranged options, and if there was more terrain (versus this wide open map I was on), it can also be helpful. Clearly in the case I was in, it wasn't a good idea to try to get some stabs in. Beyond that, there were many other tactical errors I'm aware of, so really I'm not trying to say at all that I had no chance.

I do think that the axe build is more reliable. It doesn't include charging into everything all the time as suggested. Sometimes it does require specific charging in positioning such as when dealing with slimes and multiplying blobs, but it's definitely situational. More often than not, you want things to come to the corner you are guarding (with escape routes in case things go south.) I don't want to turn this "I was venting" message into a detailed discussion on those tactics though.

One other thing, disarm was, at least for a short time a mechanic which could affect the player. It wasn't just the captain's cutlass. I can't recall the details exactly off the top of my head but I'm sure it's in logs somewhere. I believe it was a monster which would cause you to either un wield or drop your weapon.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 4th August 2018, 00:25

Re: Annoyed

svendre wrote:One other thing, disarm was, at least for a short time a mechanic which could affect the player. It wasn't just the captain's cutlass. I can't recall the details exactly off the top of my head but I'm sure it's in logs somewhere. I believe it was a monster which would cause you to either un wield or drop your weapon.
No such effect ever existed in any version of DCSS. What is even the point of lying about this?

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Post Saturday, 4th August 2018, 04:45

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:
svendre wrote:One other thing, disarm was, at least for a short time a mechanic which could affect the player. It wasn't just the captain's cutlass. I can't recall the details exactly off the top of my head but I'm sure it's in logs somewhere. I believe it was a monster which would cause you to either un wield or drop your weapon.
No such effect ever existed in any version of DCSS. What is even the point of lying about this?

There was a Xom action that animated your weapon. (Is it still in the game?) Maybe that got Svendre confused to think it was a monster effect?

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 4th August 2018, 04:56

Re: Annoyed

Does anything prevent Maurice from stealing your weapon? I also recall the Xom action, in fact I thought it switched your weapon with an enemy. Or there might have been two Xom actions, one that animated your weapon and one that switched it with the enemy. I used to carry around two weapons while worshiping Xom just in case that happened.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 4th August 2018, 06:23

Re: Annoyed

Maurice cannot steal items that are equipped, including your weapon.

Xom did have Tukima's and that weapon swap thing, but uh, Xom isn't a monster...

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 311

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 16:52

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:
svendre wrote:One other thing, disarm was, at least for a short time a mechanic which could affect the player. It wasn't just the captain's cutlass. I can't recall the details exactly off the top of my head but I'm sure it's in logs somewhere. I believe it was a monster which would cause you to either un wield or drop your weapon.
No such effect ever existed in any version of DCSS. What is even the point of lying about this?


I'm not "lying" as you suggest, which is ridiculous. I tried looking for it, and I'm guessing I'm remembering disarm via a monster in a different roguelike.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 18:17

Re: Annoyed

svendre wrote:2) Stealth sucks, in fact it is dangerous. Had this been an extremely loud character of TSO with lots more AC, it would have been perfectly viable to start killing stuff from the stairs and stair-dance in the worst of case scenarios. I got lulled in by gnoll's multiple aptitudes.


I actually consistently find Stealth to be a very helpful skill, it gives you a bit more of an opportunity to scout ahead, and more ability to pick your fights. You can often spot a dangerous monster before it notices you, and make a conscious decision as to whether you want to engage it or not. It also makes it easier for you to "lose" monsters when outside of line of sight, which makes it easier to get away, and heal up compared to a non stealthy character. Unless my god is severely hampering stealth, like TSO or Qaz, I usually try to get at least a few pips of it once I feel more confident in my abilities.

I think Stabbers have trouble in endgame primarily because endgame enemies are built to punish stabbers significantly moreso than melee bruisers or mages. This is because the dangerous endgame enemies are basically completely immune to a stabber's entire toolkit except for occasionally needles with high enchantment and throwing skill. I personally feel that there should be fewer enemies with See Invisible and generally late game monsters should have lower magic resistance all around and Magic Immune monsters should not exist. There is no reason why a Juggernaut should have as much MR as it does. As it stands, the game heavily punishes players by Depths for investing heavily in Hexes, by causing them to have no or limited effect on the most dangerous encounters even at high spell power. There is absolutely no reason for this, as the same punishments do not apply to Executioner's Axes or high level Conjurations against late game enemies. Furthermore, its not like building a stabbing character does not cost a *lot* of experience. The player has to invest in high stealth and short blades for stabbing damage, and high hexes for spell power. Alongside the regular defense skills like Fighting for HP and Dodging. Stabbing and stealth focused game play should be a viable way to play the game and on par with casting or melee.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 18:56

Re: Annoyed

akaean wrote:
svendre wrote:2) Stealth sucks, in fact it is dangerous. Had this been an extremely loud character of TSO with lots more AC, it would have been perfectly viable to start killing stuff from the stairs and stair-dance in the worst of case scenarios. I got lulled in by gnoll's multiple aptitudes.


I actually consistently find Stealth to be a very helpful skill, it gives you a bit more of an opportunity to scout ahead, and more ability to pick your fights. You can often spot a dangerous monster before it notices you, and make a conscious decision as to whether you want to engage it or not. It also makes it easier for you to "lose" monsters when outside of line of sight, which makes it easier to get away, and heal up compared to a non stealthy character. Unless my god is severely hampering stealth, like TSO or Qaz, I usually try to get at least a few pips of it once I feel more confident in my abilities.

I think Stabbers have trouble in endgame primarily because endgame enemies are built to punish stabbers significantly moreso than melee bruisers or mages. This is because the dangerous endgame enemies are basically completely immune to a stabber's entire toolkit except for occasionally needles with high enchantment and throwing skill. I personally feel that there should be fewer enemies with See Invisible and generally late game monsters should have lower magic resistance all around and Magic Immune monsters should not exist. There is no reason why a Juggernaut should have as much MR as it does. As it stands, the game heavily punishes players by Depths for investing heavily in Hexes, by causing them to have no or limited effect on the most dangerous encounters even at high spell power. There is absolutely no reason for this, as the same punishments do not apply to Executioner's Axes or high level Conjurations against late game enemies. Furthermore, its not like building a stabbing character does not cost a *lot* of experience. The player has to invest in high stealth and short blades for stabbing damage, and high hexes for spell power. Alongside the regular defense skills like Fighting for HP and Dodging. Stabbing and stealth focused game play should be a viable way to play the game and on par with casting or melee.

Actually the depths are mostly Ok, (Does everyone know that the blast from Yara's functions as a ?vuln?) as long as there exists at least one hexable critter around you can hit most high-MR critters that are not magic immune(Anything over 20% success or so with confuse is certainly reasonable to kill something with hexes), with maxed Hexes, plus fulminant prism, dazzling spray, discord and metabolic englaciation exist. For hexers in the depths, a ME followed up by a yaras lets you confuse anything dangerous and just mop up (this is made about twice as efficient by using wu jian) if you get a really dangerous crown discord and run away.

It's really only a few critters in the depth, and a few more in zot that really cause problems for hexers in a 3 rune game.

Also you really only *need* about 12 in both short blades and stealth, (or 10/14 or 8/16 or whatever) + your hex skill, you can get more than that, but it's going to take a few tries to kill things with confuse, so lowering the number of stabs you need late game from 3 to 2 for five times the XP isn't typically worth it, I mean 12/14/25 for hex stabbing isn't nothing, but it's really not all that bad either, compare to getting like 22conj/22fire for firestorm, and it's reasonable (if not favorable) You should really only train short blades and stealth super high if you've literally got nothing else to do (but that's after you've maxed dodging, armour, fighting, long blades, hexes, and spellcasting, at which point, who cares what you spend the XP on.)

The magic immune stuff is rare, but really does require some sort of workaround when you do encounter it, Zot's pretty nasty in that two of the bigger threats (Ancient Liches and orbs of fire) are magic immune, which makes it pretty hard if they're encountered solo (an orb of fire goes down pretty well in the middle of a discorded draconian pack though) At least ancient liches fall over easily if you silence them and whack them with your favorite whacking stick.

Overall, I feel like hexes are very strong for most of the game, but have a few specific weaknesses, which seems reasonable to me.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 21:40

Re: Annoyed

Siegurt wrote:(Does everyone know that the blast from Yara's functions as a ?vuln?)

...What? It does? The spell description doesn't say anything like that, does it?
...SENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}
{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}
DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNe

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 23:21

Re: Annoyed

Sprucery wrote:
Siegurt wrote:(Does everyone know that the blast from Yara's functions as a ?vuln?)

...What? It does? The spell description doesn't say anything like that, does it?

The spell's description wrote:Tears apart the bonds that bind enchantments to the target creature, transforming the magic into a
spray of deadly, mutagenic radiation

If you read it *really really* generously maybe you could interpret it that way. I just noticed that I get a large bump in hex success after something's been blasted by yara's. (Which is good, because otherwise the spell sucks.)
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 23:43

Re: Annoyed

Doesn't Yara's cause malmutation, which decreases hit dice, which determines magic resistance?

I mean, I agree with the fact that it's poorly-messaged, but I think that's what it's doing.

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duvessa

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Post Monday, 6th August 2018, 23:54

Re: Annoyed

Yes. That's all it does. It doesn't function like ?vuln at all.

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 00:01

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:Yes. That's all it does. It doesn't function like ?vuln at all.

Hm it seemed like it was a pretty large difference (from 6% to 42% in the one case where i looked at the numbers) if that is entirely due to reduced hit dice, that is fine, the net result is akin to (and of a similar degree to), ?vuln, even if it stems from a different source
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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 14:33

Re: Annoyed

From 6% to 42% is huge. That a sevenfold increase in chance. Is that just from one Yara or multiple?

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 14:50

Re: Annoyed

Plantissue wrote:From 6% to 42% is huge. That a sevenfold increase in chance. Is that just from one Yara or multiple?


Again? Is increase from 1% to 10% (multiplier 10) better than increase from 10% to 90% (multiplier 9)? Why do you refuse to compare numbers directly without introducing extra ratios?
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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 19:32

Re: Annoyed

I don’t know why you insist on making a fool of yourself VAF.

Anyways that’s just you being unable to yet again unable to understand the difference between offence and defence, and that the relative values must be worked out differently. The maths is simple, but you keep applying the wrong working method. You cannot calculate defensive power the same way as offensive power; they are related but the inverse of one another. They are the flip side of a coin, Yin and Yang, the numerator and the denominator.

From 6% to 42% is an offensive chance. If we attempted to Hex the monster 100 times, we would succeed from 6 times to 42 times. That is certainly 7 times more monsters hexed out of 100, or 7 times more.




Conversely, if we are to regard it from the viewpoint of the monster, that to resist the hex attack, then it has gone from a 94% chance to resist to a 58% chance to resist.

Using your nonsense working method, out of 100 attempts it will resist from 94 times and resist 58 times and you would had divided one with the other to obtain a loss of 28% in chance to resist the player character hexing the monster. This is entirely nonsense.



Using my explained method: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25605, it would be that the monster’s defence would be (1-0.94)/ (1-0.58) = 0.1428, or simply (0.06/0.42) = 0.1428 that is to say the monster’s defence has been reduced to a seventh of what it was previously. You are supposed to get the inverse of the same number as offence is the inverse of defence. This is entirely consistent with that hex offence chance has been improved by a multiple of 7 times. Your method is not.

Now that we got that out of the way, I still would like to know if that was just from one Yara or multiple?
Last edited by Plantissue on Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 20:03, edited 5 times in total.

bel

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 19:38

Re: Annoyed

Metabolic Englaciation is pretty strong, btw. Though somewhat expensive. It's nice that you can increase spellpower using a ring of ice.

Also, slow, in general, is underrated.

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Post Tuesday, 7th August 2018, 20:37

Re: Annoyed

Plantissue wrote:Now that we got that out of the way, I still would like to know if that was just from one Yara or multiple?

I don't recall it was quite a while ago, I don't even remember what monster it was against (I want to say a death yak, but I'm not 100% on that) What I remember was that I checked my confuse chance, decided it was low, the high MR critter was in a pack of wimpy critters, so I did a ME to slow them down, then decided to do some damage with Yaras to the big guy, killing off one or more of the little ones (I don't recall if it was one yara's or more) and out of habit pulled up the confuse targeter again and was surprised at the new chance, that's why I remembered the numbers, because I was like "Wow that's a whole lot better, Did Yara's Do that?"

From that point forward I just started using Yara's to reduce the MR of high MR stuff when it was around low MR stuff, without really checking to see how much difference it was, I'm sure someone will take the time to wizmode it :)
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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 06:10

Re: Annoyed

In wizmode testing, with one yara's I only got a death yak from 13% hex chance to 32% hex chance. So probably Siegurt is simply misremembering.

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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 06:19

Re: Annoyed

Plantissue wrote:I don’t know why you insist on making a fool of yourself VAF.

From 6% to 42% is an offensive chance. If we attempted to Hex the monster 100 times, we would succeed from 6 times to 42 times. That is certainly 7 times more monsters hexed out of 100, or 7 times more?


Lol, you have just confirmed that you believe that improvement from 1% to 10% is better than improvement from 10% to 90% for offense and after that it is me who is looking like a fool? :)
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bel

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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 06:41

Re: Annoyed

Can we not turn this into another math/shield thread? You are free to go wild, but keep it confined to an area where the others can ignore it.

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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 15:53

Re: Annoyed

bel wrote:In wizmode testing, with one yara's I only got a death yak from 13% hex chance to 32% hex chance. So probably Siegurt is simply misremembering.

As i said it could've easily been more than one yara's i wasn't paying attention, it was 'as many yaras as it took to kill the other cruft hanging around, which may or may not have been 1'
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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 18:15

Re: Annoyed

Monster malmutation doesn't stack, the HD reduction is always 25%. Multiple Yara's won't reduce MR any further.

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Post Wednesday, 8th August 2018, 18:42

Re: Annoyed

duvessa wrote:Monster malmutation doesn't stack, the HD reduction is always 25%. Multiple Yara's won't reduce MR any further.

Hm, I must've looked at two different critters then, my mistake, still 13%->32% is a pretty valuable increase.
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