the Counsellors thread


Here's where you can make suggestions for new forums & categories, voice your opinion about the forum, etc.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 20:28

the Counsellors thread

This thread is for all discussions of Counsellors and the Counsellors group - nominations, impeachments, standards, etc. It is intended to replace the thread where the notion was originally proposed and implemented.

For the record, I am the immediate administrator of the Counsellors group. As such I recuse myself from voting on nominations and impeachments unless I have a strong view.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 20:31

Re: the Counsellors thread

After deliberation by a number of moderators minmay has been removed from the Counsellors group due to frequent use of a condescending and acid tone regarded as incompatible with Counsellorship.

Be it noted that Counsellorship is a fluid and evolving concept with no formal written standards or requirements as yet. Precedents are being set though.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, XuaXua

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 20:33

Re: the Counsellors thread

Please note that the nomination of nago for Counsellor from the other thread is still open. Please post here if you wish to move for or against the nomination.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 01:46

Re: the Counsellors thread

I nominate reaver. I actually thought he already was a dev/counsellor, was surprised to learn he isn't!

For this message the author WalkerBoh has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 721

Joined: Thursday, 9th August 2012, 20:23

Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 03:07

Re: the Counsellors thread

I support nago becoming a Counsellor if he so wishes. I can't however support at this time reaver becoming a Counsellor

nago has been giving continual advice to new players for a long while now without much pause. He has also been part of the forum for a good while. He also has a wealth of game knowledge having played many games - and that's just from examining the games he's played on Webtiles.

reaver in contrast hasn't even been a member of the forum for 3 months, and hasn't posted enough yet for us to get a complete grasp of his personality. He admittedly hasn't won the game yet either and I personally feel a Counsellor should have a good pool of experience to draw from - having one at least a few times at least.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

For this message the author Davion Fuxa has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 04:04

Re: the Counsellors thread

WalkerBoh wrote:I nominate reaver. I actually thought he already was a dev/counsellor, was surprised to learn he isn't!

reaver has openly rejected Counsellor status. Please do not nominate him again for at least six months.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 17:35

Re: the Counsellors thread

Ah sorry, didn't realize that.

For this message the author WalkerBoh has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 13:51

Free Minmay

Grimm wrote:After deliberation by a number of moderators minmay has been removed from the Counsellors group due to frequent use of a condescending and acid tone regarded as incompatible with Counsellorship.


I think the content of his answers should be given more weight than the tone. There are plenty of friendlier and very enthusiastic posters that give horrible advice, and it seems like what most new players are going to benefit from with the blue-coloring is knowing who is giving them good information. If they think he's too abrasive to listen to they can always use the "foes" feature.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like blue should be used to give a new player a heads up on something they can't figure out for themselves (whether the person giving advice is credible or not), instead of something they can decide for themselves (whether the person is friendly enough to discuss video games on the internet with or not).

Please consider this notification of my official protest.
kekekela is my in-game name

For this message the author battaile has received thanks: 4
Abominae, Arrhythmia, Galefury, prozacelf
User avatar

Wizlab Walloper

Posts: 222

Joined: Monday, 3rd June 2013, 23:40

Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 14:11

Re: the Counsellors thread

I think the content of his answers should be given more weight than the tone. There are plenty of friendlier and very enthusiastic posters that give horrible advice, and it seems like what most new players are going to benefit from with the blue-coloring is knowing who is giving them good information. If they think he's too abrasive to listen to they can always use the "foes" feature.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like blue should be used to give a new player a heads up on something they can't figure out for themselves (whether the person giving advice is credible or not), instead of something they can decide for themselves (whether the person is friendly enough to discuss video games on the internet with or not).

Please consider this notification of my official protest.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. A major reason I was a ghost on the forum for a year (having actually joined only recently) is that I was, quite frankly, reluctant to join a community that would allow such a vitriolic person to be a Counselor. Minmay is great at the game and almost always gives good advice, and I respect him for that. But that's not all a person should need to be a Counselor.

For this message the author Azrael has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, XuaXua

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 17:03

Re: the Counsellors thread

Both of you make very good points. It is a difficult call with no clearly correct answer. Consider that we have tried it one way (minmay a blue) for almost exactly a year; let's try it the other way for a while.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2179

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 15:18

Re: the Counsellors thread

I personally totally support battaile's argumentation: the blue squad's members should give good advices to new players, not necessary be a friendly welcoming party group.
Minmay always gives very strong advices - even when he's absolutely cryptic - which should be the point of the Counselor title.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

For this message the author nago has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 15:58

Re: the Counsellors thread

You're an imbecile, nago. You're wrong and you write like a fool. You have no reason to be responding to this thread.

Now, did that make you feel accepted? No? Well, that's how I saw it delivered, over and over.
And I had absolutely 100% nothing to do with any of this de-counsellor-ification; I just agree with it.
Rudeness overtakes advice every day of the week.

Btw, I love you, nago. Marry me.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

For this message the author XuaXua has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Azrael

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 16:12

Re: the Counsellors thread

I don't see any good advices at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8154#p110568 (open spoiler). I hope nobody believes that it is acceptable to insult people even if you are a good player/advisor and write "sorry" in the same post.

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3163

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 18:45

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 16:21

Re: the Counsellors thread

Then you stopped looking after seeing the silly gif. Minmay is brusque, to say the least, but he backs it up with more experience and knowledge about crawl than nearly anybody else around here.

For this message the author BlackSheep has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 16:56

Re: the Counsellors thread

BlackSheep wrote:Then you stopped looking after seeing the silly gif. Minmay is brusque, to say the least, but he backs it up with more experience and knowledge about crawl than nearly anybody else around here.


Nope, I read the whole message, it can be seen from my reply. Actually, I didn't see the insulting part at first, I am not going to spend my precious time looking at animated gifs, what's fun at age 17, is not fun at age 37.

Fortunately minmay is not the only counsellor here.
Ask players - do they want
1) to hear a good advise expressed politely and friendly
or
2) to hear a good advise expressed with .. let's say expressed not so politely and not so friendly.

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3163

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 18:45

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 17:16

Re: the Counsellors thread

I'm sorry, but driving home the point that the early game is far and away the most important phase in a crawl run isn't just good advice, it's *fantastic* advice. The fact that everything beyond that is basically theorycraft and a distraction from what's necessary to play well is something that he and other counsellors continually try to emphasize.

If we were up to our ears in crawl experts willing to read the same questions over and over on an internet forum and write responses, we could pick and choose based on personality type, but we're in a pretty small niche here. Ultimately, this discussion is moot, as I'm sure minmay doesn't care whether his name is blue, and will continue to write as he always has. At least, I hope he will.

For this message the author BlackSheep has received thanks: 4
Arrhythmia, boatman, prozacelf, yogaFLAME

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 17:46

Re: the Counsellors thread

I am sorry but you missed the point of that thread. We were talking about MfIE and HuIE, specifically about training path - should MfIE go for Throw Icicle and eventually Ice Storm or hybridize earlier and go for Polearms. Combos are not compared by success rate to reach Temple only otherwise TrMo and SpEn would be the most powerful combos and poor starters like DEFE or MuSu would be the worst ones.

I hope minmay will improve his way of writing posts, I really like their content already. As you might see, I haven't stopped thanking him for his hints after that gif.

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1609

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 19:16

Re: the Counsellors thread

I also agree that giving good and accurate information is an important quality in someone who is officially labelled as a source of good and accurate information. Unfortunately it is a quality that is often lacking in at least one current counsellor, for example here is a recent post that is factually incorrect. Real branch locations are determined on game start, extra mimic branches are placed during level generation so a "fake branch entrance vault" is in fact exactly what it is (I don't regularly read the Advice or YASD forums so I only correct these when I happen to run into them). Personally I'm not much of a fan of the label existing in general but since it does, I would hope that poor content is just as problematic as poor tone.

For this message the author MarvinPA has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, battaile

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 19:35

Re: the Counsellors thread

MarvinPA wrote:I also agree that giving good and accurate information is an important quality in someone who is officially labelled as a source of good and accurate information. Unfortunately it is a quality that is often lacking in at least one current counsellor, for example here is a recent post that is factually incorrect. Real branch locations are determined on game start, extra mimic branches are placed during level generation so a "fake branch entrance vault" is in fact exactly what it is (I don't regularly read the Advice or YASD forums so I only correct these when I happen to run into them). Personally I'm not much of a fan of the label existing in general but since it does, I would hope that poor content is just as problematic as poor tone.


I think you might have slightly misinterpreted his wording. What he meant is there is no specific vault map that is labelled as "fake branch entrance" and what is seen is a normal branch entrance map that just has the stairs converted to a mimic (which is exactly what you are saying also). This was to correct an earlier poster in the thread who was under the impression that this was some special vault map. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

For this message the author mumra has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2297

Joined: Saturday, 14th April 2012, 21:35

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 19:55

Re: the Counsellors thread

mumra wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:I also agree that giving good and accurate information is an important quality in someone who is officially labelled as a source of good and accurate information. Unfortunately it is a quality that is often lacking in at least one current counsellor, for example here is a recent post that is factually incorrect. Real branch locations are determined on game start, extra mimic branches are placed during level generation so a "fake branch entrance vault" is in fact exactly what it is.

What he meant is there is no specific vault map that is labelled as "fake branch entrance" and what is seen is a normal branch entrance map that just has the stairs converted to a mimic (which is exactly what you are saying also). This was to correct an earlier poster in the thread who was under the impression that this was some special vault map.

While mumra's interpretation is correct for this case, MarvinPA's point remains that I have made a number of posts that needed correction (or at least, a re-wording to minimise mis-interpretations) by other Counsellors afterwards. It's also true that my life has taken a turn for the busier so my expertise (and time spent reading/replying on forums) is (further) slipping.

Make the decision: do you still want me to be a 'blue name'? I will accept being removed for the sake of upholding the 'brand image' of blue names: it's important we prioritise the needs of the newer players. Either way I'll still be giving advice in the YASD/YAVP forum, whenever time permits.

For this message the author Psieye has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1609

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 20:04

Re: the Counsellors thread

I could have picked a better example, yes. In fact that AC one is way better because it's an incredibly common misconception and something that I also believed was true for a fairly significant amount of time even after becoming a developer (and I have certainly made plenty of other silly mistakes since being corrected on that one, and I'm sure lots of other people who post advice have done too, whether they are labelled counsellors or not) - it sort of demonstrates that the best way to know something for sure is probably to just check it yourself, and is another reason I'm not keen on the label.

In general I think if someone consistently gives high-quality advice and usually-accurate information they will probably be recognised for it with or without an explicit label, and I would imagine new members would pick up on that fairly quickly anyway. I could certainly be entirely wrong though, since as I said I only read the Advice/YASD forums every so often.
Last edited by MarvinPA on Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 20:13, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author MarvinPA has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2297

Joined: Saturday, 14th April 2012, 21:35

Post Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 20:12

Re: the Counsellors thread

MarvinPA wrote:it sort of demonstrates that the best way to know something for sure is probably to just check it yourself, and is another reason I'm not keen on the label.

While this is true, newer players still want "reliable advisors" for various reasons, ranging from laziness (both in the 'speed' and 'effort' sense) to being uncomfortable with code diving or even wizmode testing. These people already have a lot on their minds (including whether they care enough about this game to stick around), they don't want the additional learning burden required to know how to find things out for themselves. Figuring out who the reliable advisors are is something new forum readers will pick up, but again it takes time (i.e. longer than it takes to splat their latest, greatest attempt at a first win).

For this message the author Psieye has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 13:34

Re: the Counsellors thread

Grimm wrote:Both of you make very good points. It is a difficult call with no clearly correct answer.

Indeed, the definition of counselor isn't set in stone. But it's definitely about a "community approved" label. And as such, a decent attitude seems that it should be required. I'm not feeling good about minmay's aggressive posts carrying a "community approved" colour.

nago wrote:Minmay always gives very strong advices - even when he's absolutely cryptic - which should be the point of the Counselor title.

The cryptic part is very important. This is actually the real reason I've been campaigning for minmay's removal of the counselor group, not his attitude. What use is a good advice if it's so poorly worded that nobody understand it? It's even worse when people misunderstand what he says. Clarity is just as importance as accuracy for providing good advices.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 14:07

Re: the Counsellors thread

pot wrote: I'm not feeling good about kettle's aggressive posts carrying a "community approved" colour.
kekekela is my in-game name

For this message the author battaile has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, XuaXua
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 15:22

Re: the Counsellors thread

You want the Counsellor responsibility?

Then you need to act as polite as a moderator should act.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

For this message the author XuaXua has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Azrael

Spider Stomper

Posts: 211

Joined: Thursday, 5th January 2012, 08:32

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:13

Re: the Counsellors thread

If there is an image or code of conduct to go with blue names, that's fine. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find enough super-knowledgeable people that are also willing to fit within that behavioral box, but maybe crawl's community is bigger than I think.

Pick some other color, give that to minmay. He's one of maybe a dozen posters actually worth reading on this forum.

For this message the author yogaFLAME has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Wizlab Walloper

Posts: 222

Joined: Monday, 3rd June 2013, 23:40

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 17:20

Re: the Counsellors thread

Perhaps red. :D

For this message the author Azrael has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 21:51

Re: the Counsellors thread

yogaFLAME wrote:I think you'll be hard-pressed to find enough super-knowledgeable people that are also willing to fit within that behavioral box

The strongest words which have been used (by me) to describe this behavioral box are "decent attitude". So far, all the other councellors have been able to fit into it without any apparent effort.
In general, I think the moderation policy on the forum is quite lax, we tolerate a lot of stuff.

Pick some other color, give that to minmay. He's one of maybe a dozen posters actually worth reading on this forum.

You can still read him just fine, we haven't censored him.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Spider Stomper

Posts: 211

Joined: Thursday, 5th January 2012, 08:32

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 23:01

Re: the Counsellors thread

galehar wrote:The strongest words which have been used (by me) to describe this behavioral box are "decent attitude". So far, all the other councellors have been able to fit into it without any apparent effort.


Yes, okay. You don't want him to be a counselor. I get it.

You can still read him just fine, we haven't censored him.


What does that have to do with anything? I'm recommending that he be rewarded for being knowledgeable and funny. Your response is a non sequitur.

For this message the author yogaFLAME has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 23:10

Re: the Counsellors thread

I don't frequent any other forums, so I have no idea where this one sits one the "laissez faire vs Rules!!!" spectrum. However, I do think that minmay comes across overly harsh rather too often. I also think that there's too much drama about colours (not that I'd be a person to shun drama at any given time).

Crawl has a quite large player base, given the niche it occupies, together with many very knowlegeable and helpful specimen among them. Altogether the system seems to works quite well to me, and I'd suggest to go back to talking about humiliating deaths, debilitating design decisions and outrageous species proposals.

Full disclosure: I didn't have anything to do with minmay's decolouring. I read everything he writes, as there is regularly very valuable design commentary to be found, but minmay also produces a fair share of replies where I can but mentally shrug it off. (Grammar be damned!)

For this message the author dpeg has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Thursday, 20th June 2013, 05:22

Re: the Counsellors thread

I don't really care what the message is, if the tone is shitty and demeaning then I'm going to basically tune it out automatically anyways. Counsellors shouldn't make people feel stupid and unwanted when they answer questions, because that defeats the entire person of being a counsellor, which is to help people. It's fine to be super knowledgeable and not want to help people, but then you shouldn't be marked as someone who is generally helpful. ;)

For this message the author WalkerBoh has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, XuaXua

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 20th June 2013, 18:34

Re: the Counsellors thread

Azrael wrote:Perhaps red. :D


Nominate ebarret for red as well. perhaps add some demon horns.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 721

Joined: Thursday, 9th August 2012, 20:23

Post Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 22:05

Re: the Counsellors thread

So... Back to nago.

I don't see anyone moving against him become a counselor (though maybe no one had time to realize he had 3 backers, myself included, and the thread had sort of degenerated into a full blown discussion about minmay).

Mind setting up a time limit of a day or two before he's in Grimm as per how you've done it for the last nominated counselors?
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

For this message the author Davion Fuxa has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Blades Runner

Posts: 552

Joined: Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 21:11

Post Monday, 24th June 2013, 01:20

Re: Free Minmay

battaile wrote:
Grimm wrote:After deliberation by a number of moderators minmay has been removed from the Counsellors group due to frequent use of a condescending and acid tone regarded as incompatible with Counsellorship.


I think the content of his answers should be given more weight than the tone. There are plenty of friendlier and very enthusiastic posters that give horrible advice, and it seems like what most new players are going to benefit from with the blue-coloring is knowing who is giving them good information. If they think he's too abrasive to listen to they can always use the "foes" feature.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like blue should be used to give a new player a heads up on something they can't figure out for themselves (whether the person giving advice is credible or not), instead of something they can decide for themselves (whether the person is friendly enough to discuss video games on the internet with or not).

Please consider this notification of my official protest.


I agree with this. Whenever I'm reading a thread specifically for gameplay advice I usually do a quick scroll looking for blue names to get good information. It's hard to dig through the signal to noise ratio if you're not already extremely knowledgeable at the game. He may have an irritating personality but I've learned a lot from his posts.

For this message the author moocowmoocow has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 24th June 2013, 06:13

Re: Free Minmay

moocowmoocow wrote:
battaile wrote:
Grimm wrote:After deliberation by a number of moderators minmay has been removed from the Counsellors group due to frequent use of a condescending and acid tone regarded as incompatible with Counsellorship.


I think the content of his answers should be given more weight than the tone. There are plenty of friendlier and very enthusiastic posters that give horrible advice, and it seems like what most new players are going to benefit from with the blue-coloring is knowing who is giving them good information. If they think he's too abrasive to listen to they can always use the "foes" feature.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like blue should be used to give a new player a heads up on something they can't figure out for themselves (whether the person giving advice is credible or not), instead of something they can decide for themselves (whether the person is friendly enough to discuss video games on the internet with or not).

Please consider this notification of my official protest.


I agree with this. Whenever I'm reading a thread specifically for gameplay advice I usually do a quick scroll looking for blue names to get good information. It's hard to dig through the signal to noise ratio if you're not already extremely knowledgeable at the game. He may have an irritating personality but I've learned a lot from his posts.


It can be useful to read non-blue posters sometimes. They might share the same mistakes with you and there can be a discussion about it between non-counsellors :)

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 718

Joined: Monday, 14th February 2011, 05:35

Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 01:11

Re: the Counsellors thread

Throughout a massive number of posts by minmay that I have seen, I cannot recall a single piece of advice that I either completely disagreed with or found to be factually incorrect. And for what it is worth, if I were to ever ask for playing advice on this forum, minmay would probably be the first person I ask. I do not mind what some see as excessively brief or curt - I find it concise and challenging the reader to do his own thinking as well.
mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

For this message the author mikee has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Slime Squisher

Posts: 403

Joined: Sunday, 13th February 2011, 13:57

Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 01:41

Re: the Counsellors thread

The posts that I've read from nago were very good!

Anyway, there were a few things I wanted to add to this discussion:

Firstly, I'm not really sure that nominating people for counsellors or their withdrawal should really be a public thing - I think there's too much potential for hurt feelings. Maybe a solicitation to send (non-public) comments to [whoever decides this] could be better? But there are potentially far bigger drawbacks to that, so I'm not sure.

As an interesting aside: at one stage there was one nomination I briefly thought about disagreeing with, but their posts since have mostly been so good that I am really glad that I didn't open my mouth. :-)

Secondly, I think minmay is a prime example of the case where the good-advice-giver badge is appropriate.
Should a newbie pay more attention to a 500 word reply from someone else or a sarcastic 4 word response from minmay? (Hint: It's usually the latter! :lol: He's got a great ability to convey a complex point in the minimum number of words. )
Also, I like to post 'advice' that illustrates what I'd do and it's informative (to me, at least!) to see if gets knocked down or agreed with by better players. It's definitely helpful to have an indication of who to listen to.

Finally, I guess this decision depends on whether one views the role of "counsellor" as someone who will beat the bad habits out of you or someone who will console you after YASD.

For this message the author dassem has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Sandman25

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 721

Joined: Thursday, 9th August 2012, 20:23

Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 05:07

Re: the Counsellors thread

dassem wrote:Firstly, I'm not really sure that nominating people for counsellors or their withdrawal should really be a public thing - I think there's too much potential for hurt feelings. Maybe a solicitation to send (non-public) comments to [whoever decides this] could be better? But there are potentially far bigger drawbacks to that, so I'm not sure.


This game is managed by individuals taking it upon themselves to volunteer time to help the game along. Keeping things as open as possible encourages participation by new people as well as old since they can see it or ways they can step up and contribute. This also includes the nomination of counselors, as well as people who decide to help code, update the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup Wiki, or what not.

What's also of note is that the counselor position is highly related to what the community of posters thinks as well. Those who became counselors are a reflection of the posters in this forum that decided that they should be made counselors.

I'm not sure if you recognize any of the perceivable drawbacks from keeping things private but it is worth noting that one of them is the notion of the Old Boys' Club, which personally I think should be avoided as much as possible.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

For this message the author Davion Fuxa has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, dassem

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 18:52

Re: the Counsellors thread

- The idea of counsellors was created to help new or casual forum members who might not want or be able to spend the time figuring out whose advice is worth following. From what I've seen, new members are generally very grateful for the help they get, and use the blue names as a guide. The counsellors idea is working for the most part. Old regulars don't care. For them all the names are gray.

- None of the original counsellors made any effort to join. They were drafted in to the position, by unanimous decision of the people involved in that thread, based entirely on their knowledge. There was no code of conduct in place. They weren't asked to change at all.

- While tone is less important than knowledge, obviously there are some limits. If a counsellor were to repeatedly call someone "moron" while giving good advice, I think that would be over the line. On the other hand, a certain amount of natural pride arises in someone who is very experienced and skilled at something, so some condescension is inevitable. Also, with no facial expressions or voice timbre, it's hard to know where someone is really coming from.

- People have skins of differing thicknesses. Some react aggressively to things others are unaffected by. We can't please everyone all the time. And some acid is definitely desirable, and definitely much better than a big group hug session where nobody learns anything. Not long ago a new member asked for something to be done about a mean tone in a post from I think mikee or crate. I looked at the thread and let it go, telling the guy he had to roll with the punches. I think he left.

- We don't have to use colored names. The forum software lets us set avatars and rank titles as well as colors for a group. A mixture is possible - minmay could be blue but have the title "Counsellor (disputed)" or something. :D I am open to ideas.


So:

1. Regarding minmay: If there are strong feelings we'd probably have to put it to a formal public poll. At the end of the day I think counsellorhood should be a community choice, barring strong exceptions.

2. Regarding nago: Any votes against? Any more for?

3. Regarding Psieye: He's offered to resign his counsellorship. Any opposed? Other views?

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 486

Joined: Thursday, 28th June 2012, 17:50

Location: U.S.

Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 22:50

Re: the Counsellors thread

Grimm wrote:1. Regarding minmay: If there are strong feelings we'd probably have to put it to a formal public poll. At the end of the day I think counsellorhood should be a community choice, barring strong exceptions.

Sometimes I'll read giant threads (especially GDD threads) by just reading the posts of colored names. Colored names make way better posts on average than grey ones and more often than not provide all the meat of the discussion. Minmay in particular makes very good posts as he always brings up a clear point and has very sensible principles when it comes to GDD (in my opinion at least). In a poll I would definitely vote for blue on him so I could spot his posts easily when I'm skimming a thread. As for his politeness, I don't like what he said to sandman in that incident but that's a stone I can't throw. Normally he's just gruff, hardly more so than crate or BlackSheep, which is far from hostile.

Grimm wrote:2. Regarding nago: Any votes against? Any more for?

I don't see very many nago posts but from what I've seen he gives good advice. I support him being blue.

Grimm wrote:3. Regarding Psieye: He's offered to resign his counsellorship. Any opposed? Other views?

I nominated Psieye because his advice is I believe much better than that of the average grey name. I still believe it is even considering the factual derping. He explains the logic behind stuff more than other blue names most of the time, which is very satisfying to the curious novice (and I think twice have I been the novice happy to receive those extra words). Also, such statements provide their own logical basis rather than the authoritative "this is better than that" which a lot of people don't find very charming (as I'm sure you know better than anyone since you're the one receiving those complaints). Yes Psieye does have potential to be incorrect, more than some of our counselors, so the question is how high do we set the bar? We could set it so high that our only counselor is mikee, but I think a more relaxed standard is advisable. How relaxed or strict it should be is, of course, your call since you're in charge of the counselor group.

For this message the author some12fat2move has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 08:17

Re: the Counsellors thread

some12fat2move wrote:Minmay in particular makes very good posts as he always brings up a clear point and has very sensible principles when it comes to GDD (in my opinion at least).

Posts in GDD are irrelevant to the counsellor status. Expert players can make very interesting comments on the balance aspect of a feature, but they may not have such a good insight regarding game design. Also, fun is subjective and so is game design. Maybe minmay has some great game design skills, but his vision doesn't fit with crawl.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 15:03

Re: the Counsellors thread

I feel strongly that minmay should be blue.
I think nago also meets the bar for blue status, but I only feel this 73% as strongly as my minmay stance.
Psyeye seems like a nice guy.
kekekela is my in-game name

For this message the author battaile has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 486

Joined: Thursday, 28th June 2012, 17:50

Location: U.S.

Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 15:58

Re: the Counsellors thread

galehar wrote:Posts in GDD are irrelevant to the counsellor status.

I liked when his name was blue so I could spot his GDD posts easier. I know that's not what counselor status is supposed to be about, it is just a motivation for me wanting him blue. If it weren't for that bias, perhaps I wouldn't want him blue, I don't know.

galehar wrote:fun is subjective and so is game design. Maybe minmay has some great game design skills, but his vision doesn't fit with crawl.

Even if I don't agree with him his posts are among the most interesting and thought-provoking in GDD. But again, that shouldn't have anything to do with the blue, it's just a bias.

For this message the author some12fat2move has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 16:51

Re: the Counsellors thread

I agree with removing psieye from counsellors. If I had been active when I saw the nomination I might have spoken up then, but I didn't want to gripe in public after the fact.

minmay should probably be a counsellor. If not, don't make yet another category with avatar/title or whatever - the simple blue names works fine.

I don't have an opinion on nago one way or another.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz

For this message the author rchandra has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 300

Joined: Tuesday, 19th February 2013, 23:34

Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 17:39

Re: the Counsellors thread

By all means, be ultra picky with counsellors, because there are so many who post so frequently that culling the herd is essential.

FWIW, I'm a better player due to the advice of both minmay and psieye, as well as the advice of folks like rchandra who aren't blue. As far as I've seen, if psieye is incorrect, it's not about the big stuff.

For this message the author HenryFlower has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 176

Joined: Thursday, 13th September 2012, 22:59

Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2013, 18:09

Re: the Counsellors thread

I just want to take a moment to remind you all that for a large number of visitors to this message board (this mostly includes me), this forum is visited by 6 internet persons: @ME@ - greys (players) - blues (very experienced players) - oranges (game writers) - light greens (mods) - dark greens (jokers). I cannot remember 2 posters from one another, so i look for the colors, except CYC, which i like for its rather unique brand of humor. The only person I wanted to nominate said no and ive gone back to forgetting his name and skipping his posts, as for those discussed here I clearly have no idea so wont suggest either way.

My only suggestion would be to limit the dark greens to CYC because they are good posts in CYC but not good posts outside of CYC, so it would be nice if i wasnt lured into reading their posts outside of CYC.

For this message the author Baldu has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 689

Joined: Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 13:10

Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 14:18

Re: the Counsellors thread

We should just rename counselor to "experienced player" and have the membership requirement be completely objective. For instance, 40 wins and 100 thanks. This forum doesn't need politics.
Dearest Steve
thanks for the gym equipment
the plane crashed

For this message the author pubby has received thanks: 3
Arrhythmia, HenryFlower, Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 19:32

Re: the Counsellors thread

That's not a bad idea. Winrate could be used as a factor. And politics is definitely nicht erwünscht. However:

- What about offline players? How to verify their winrate.
- What if the person never gives advice? Just posts in GDD or CYC. The original gang of counsellors were already known for responding to requests for help. What would be the point of the badge then? Or are you proposing that we change it to simply a winner badge.
- Thanks is useless as a metric.

I am also considering using a poll for counsellor election, starting with nago. It would be limited in time, say two weeks, and linked across all subforums to get a large voting sample.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 446

Joined: Thursday, 16th June 2011, 22:57

Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 19:44

Re: the Counsellors thread

Grimm wrote:- What about offline players? How to verify their winrate.

Honestly I only listen to guys that have a good track record online, I just have no way of knowing if an offline player has done what he says he's done.

I'd rather see total wins used than win rate (it tends to align better with who I consider credible, vs guys with good winrates but relatively few wins), but I think any measurable metric is a good step in the right direction. Its kind of just taking care of some of the legwork I'd do myself anyway.
kekekela is my in-game name

For this message the author battaile has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 19:59

Re: the Counsellors thread

Grimm wrote:The original gang of counsellors were already known for responding to requests for help.


This is the most important thing. They were known good advisors, winrate aside (I'm not even sure if all of them play online). I don't want to see any gameable system "Oh look I won MiBe/DDEE/etc 40 times of 50".

Using a poll to add is ok, but if consensus isn't obvious the person doesn't need to be added anyway! So the current nomination/discussion method is preferable.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz

For this message the author rchandra has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
Next

Return to Suggestions & Criticism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.