Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people should


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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 20:49

Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people should

be probated for making them.
take it easy

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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 21:26

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

If this is the thread where we hash out where the line is w/r/t content we're willing to have on the Tavern, I'm all for it. Our rules just forbid "offensive material," in addition to the various forms of bigotry we don't welcome here. In the past, I've mostly seen this rule applied exclusively to explicit pornographic content and little else; most of the time when someone is moderated, it's because of the rule against "insulting or harassing," which usually isn't offensive but just mean.

In other words, feel free, everyone, to discuss what we should consider "offensive." It's a bit amusing, for example, that Arrhy is complaining about incest jokes given his signature. Our standards of discourse on the Tavern are extremely flexible, and whatever else people think, I can tell you that our mod team is incredibly lenient; if we want to tighten that up, let's talk about it.

What this thread isn't going to be is a repository for attempts at offensive jokes. If you want to (try to) be funny, please take it to CYC, and let's keep S&C on topic and relatively serious. Thanks in advance y'all.

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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 21:32

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Here was my impromptu line in the sand that I drew in the CYC thread that prompted this one:

In CYC, images must be SFW. Text can be (hard) R-rated but let's keep it this side of snuff film — cool?


I really have no interest in policing this sort of thing, nor do any of the mods, but we don't want this place to become 4chan, basically.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 22:03

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

archaeo wrote:If this is the thread where we hash out where the line is w/r/t content we're willing to have on the Tavern, I'm all for it. Our rules just forbid "offensive material," in addition to the various forms of bigotry we don't welcome here. In the past, I've mostly seen this rule applied exclusively to explicit pornographic content and little else; most of the time when someone is moderated, it's because of the rule against "insulting or harassing," which usually isn't offensive but just mean.

In other words, feel free, everyone, to discuss what we should consider "offensive." It's a bit amusing, for example, that Arrhy is complaining about incest jokes given his signature. Our standards of discourse on the Tavern are extremely flexible, and whatever else people think, I can tell you that our mod team is incredibly lenient; if we want to tighten that up, let's talk about it.

What this thread isn't going to be is a repository for attempts at offensive jokes. If you want to (try to) be funny, please take it to CYC, and let's keep S&C on topic and relatively serious. Thanks in advance y'all.


It's not that I am actually against posts about elven incest but people just dropping "hurr dowan and duvessa fuck" like it's a good post. Specific posts that I think are bad and should be moderated are: pretty much any post that and into deleted except for the incredibly violent duvessa fucking dowan because I thought that it was pretty funny juxtapositioned next to minmay's post about nothing terrible happening,

zrn wrote:
duvessa wrote:Holy shit, what the fuck happened to my eyes in this one?

Incest is a hell of a drug


Rast wrote:
infinitevox wrote:dowan x duvessa

That's canon.


Mostly what brought this on is that I noticed a lot more of them in like, the past 3 months? and I don't want it to become some unfunny tavern meme. What I really think is that unfunny duvessa x dowan posts should be punished but it'd also just be a lot easier to blanket ban the whole thing.

And if people are uncomfortable with my signature, I'll change it.

e: tangentially, people also misspell "insect" as "incest" a LOT, and it's pretty funny
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 2nd October 2016, 07:56

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Arrhythmia wrote:these post annoy me so ban everyone

ty mr. backseat mod

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Post Sunday, 2nd October 2016, 14:39

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Probably the moderators should judge these things on a case-by-case basis. Maybe incest crosses the line currently, but there's no slippery slope in play because the moderators don't have to hold themselves to some rigorous standard. Topics get shut down because they're disruptive to the Crawl-centric purpose of the board, not because the moderators necessarily need to worry about real-world morality.

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Post Sunday, 2nd October 2016, 16:18

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Sar wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:these post annoy me so ban everyone

ty mr. backseat mod


hey at least i'm posting the backseat moderation forum about this!
take it easy

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 16:26

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Arrhythmia wrote:people also misspell "insect" as "incest" a LOT

that has happened precisely twice in the whole history of tavern
search.php?keywords=incest&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 17:04

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:people also misspell "insect" as "incest" a LOT

that has happened precisely twice in the whole history of tavern
search.php?keywords=incest&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search
he still got you to search tavern for "incest" which was the goal

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 17:53

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

While as one of the subjects of these posts, I kinda agree they're gross, they're nowhere near the grossest thing that happens on this forum. Silly incest jokes about video game characters made in good humor are nowhere near as disruptive and bad for discourse as the many posts made just to insult past or present members of the community.

This seems more about meme policing than any standard of decency to be honest.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 01:34

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:people also misspell "insect" as "incest" a LOT

that has happened precisely twice in the whole history of tavern
search.php?keywords=incest&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search


you just wanted to correct me because you were one of them
take it easy
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 01:52

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

dowan wrote:While as one of the subjects of these posts, I kinda agree they're gross, they're nowhere near the grossest thing that happens on this forum. Silly incest jokes about video game characters made in good humor are nowhere near as disruptive and bad for discourse as the many posts made just to insult past or present members of the community.

This seems more about meme policing than any standard of decency to be honest.


1. they are not good humor. in fact, they are very bad humor.
2. we have it in ourselves to actually deal with multiple problems, at once. just because the tavern has a separate problem does not mean we need to ignore every other problem until it's solved. e: if you feel strongly about it, you should consider making an S&C thread about it instead of this one, which is about how posts about duvessa/dowan fucking are a cancer here, and not the tone of the tavern.
take it easy

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 07:13

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Theres nothing morally wrong with brother-sister incest. Its just a weird societal stigma rooted in the fact that inbreeding leads to genetic diseases.
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:57

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

lethediver wrote:Theres nothing morally wrong with brother-sister incest. Its just a weird societal stigma rooted in the fact that inbreeding leads to genetic diseases.

I can't really say I'd recommend the book, but La philosophie dans le boudoir by Donatien-Alphonse-François de Sade is certainly an interesting read.
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:50

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

lethediver wrote:Theres nothing morally wrong with brother-sister incest. Its just a weird societal stigma rooted in the fact that inbreeding leads to genetic diseases.


The basis of relevance for this forum is the game DCSS, not "anything that is not morally wrong (whatever that may mean)."

We have CYC for some rather tangential topics but even there, some criteria of relevance has to obtain. There is also the issue of "decorum" where we are pretty lenient but, again, there are some standards.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 17:53

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

How you know dowan and duvessa aren't stepsiblings? Maybe they just identify as siblings. Maybe elves consider all other elves their 'siblings'.
Maybe if people were drowning out useful threads with this sort of thing it'd be a problem, but in my time on the forum I've only ever seen vague references to it, nothing graphic, and on the other hand I've read some extremely graphic stuff about other subjects.

For example, I find the subject of bestiality much more offensive than consensual whatever between adults, regardless of their relationship. And yet I don't ask for anyone to be banned or silenced over it, I just don't go to those threads.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 18:11

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

dowan wrote:And yet I don't ask for anyone to be banned or silenced over it, I just don't go to those threads.

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between content that one might find personally offensive and content that is oppressive. In general, I think the mods have aimed their attention at the latter, and that's the intention of the rule against "content that alienates people because of who they are."

Which is to say that, while it might be kosher to say "If you don't like offensive jokes don't go to CYC," it's unacceptable to suggest that this gives free reign to people who want to make jokes that are aimed directly at a group's humanity and dignity. I don't think you're doing that, dowan, but it's something I want to point out.

I think it's also worth discussing why the Tavern even needs a dirty jokes subforum, what with the whole rest of the Internet, but maybe this isn't the thread for that.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 21:13

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

dowan wrote:For example, I find the subject of bestiality much more offensive than consensual whatever between adults, regardless of their relationship. And yet I don't ask for anyone to be banned or silenced over it, I just don't go to those threads.


Cool.

No one has been banned or probated for any incest jokes. archaeo has (helpfully) tried to redirect this thread in a more general and hopefully productive direction than what was said in the OP.

What prompted the deleting of posts (NB: no probating/banning) in the splash screens thread was a post that involved rape, so not the "consensual whatever between adults," fyi.

And it was not done without prompting — I did it after receiving a report on that post, and more than one report on that thread. So I went through and deleted some posts with rather extreme descriptions. My doing so involved no judgment about any of the people posting; I merely think people got carried away with dirty jokes, and it seemed prudent to reel it in a bit. That's it.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 23:25

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

dowan wrote:How you know dowan and duvessa aren't stepsiblings? Maybe they just identify as siblings. Maybe elves consider all other elves their 'siblings'.


ah yes, the "pornhub argument". surprising, yet effective.
take it easy

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 13:04

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

Hey, I'm totally with you there and into, rape jokes don't fit the tavern atmosphere and neither do racist or sexist jokes. That's great! I'm glad you took the action you did.

That's separate from the dowan and duvessa stuff, which has been nowhere near graphic from what I've seen. But if that's a particularly touchy subject for you for whatever reason, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that you don't go to threads about it. Of course if it's disruptive to unrelated threads it should be handled the same way as any other disruptive posting.

I was joking about the step-siblings thing of course, everyone knows Dowan and Duvessa are blood relatives.

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 14:20

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

I am relatively new to this forum, but in my opinion, you shouldn't decide if a post in offensive enough to delete or not, because its really hard to draw a line between offensive and non-offensive content for different people. Tbh I think you should just delete any posts that may in any form imply sexual, sexist, racist or in any other way offensive content, as well as insults towards other posters and trolling. Yes, I posted stuff like that and it got deleted and I think it's good. And yes, this includes posts like:

zrn wrote:
duvessa wrote:Holy shit, what the fuck happened to my eyes in this one?

Incest is a hell of a drug


I would be also glad if obscene language wasn't allowed on forums (I never use it personally), but that's too much to ask I guess.

Also delete any non-Crawl related and/or joke posts on all boards except CYC.

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 18:35

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:people also misspell "insect" as "incest" a LOT

that has happened precisely twice in the whole history of tavern
search.php?keywords=incest&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=-1&t=0&submit=Search

I'm impressed by your thirst for punctual accuracy (and hoping you don't actually bookmark all misspells in this forum).

lethediver wrote:Theres nothing morally wrong with brother-sister incest. Its just a weird societal stigma rooted in the fact that inbreeding leads to genetic diseases.

Not really, it's because family has a fundamental importance as basic societal cell, and fundamentally mixing up the roles in it on a widespread level would probably crush society (not just western society, all of human society).


Aaaanyway, what Babyrage proposes is a standard thing in most forums I've been. Which doesn't mean it absolutely must be implemented here. I personally am quite surprised by how well things are going with such a light-handed mod staff. I guess one could make profanity forbidden when it's used seriously against another user or real person users have a reason to care about. I mean, Babyrage's idea isn't wrong, but it looks like a hell of a change for this forum. I guess one could use it like a last resort, if things were to get out of hand and the forum were evidently headed towards 4chanisation.

Even about the incest jokes, I don't really know. It's not like they are funny per se. Maybe we could just put them to rest. We are a small enough number, that, if we agree on something, we can just let it go. It is a meme, it's not something people come up with autonomously, I think. If we close the tap or faucet, it's unlikely someone will reopen it for a while.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 18:58

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

lethediver wrote:Theres nothing morally wrong with brother-sister incest. Its just a weird societal stigma rooted in the fact that inbreeding leads to genetic diseases.

I think there are certainly hypothetical circumstances in which sibling incest is okay, but in the real world it usually involves or entails rape or abuse. Since these things are themselves (a) really painful to lots of people; (b) conversational lightning rods; and (c) things the internet is notoriously bad at discussing, I think it's totally a good idea to defer to people who don't want to be confronted with the topic on a message board about a computer game.

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 19:09

Re: Duvessa/Dowan incest posts are really bad and people sho

This isn't Suggestions & Criticism & Moral Philosophy. Let's find a way to discuss moderation without having a conversation about the morality of incest in parallel, thanks. Thread locked.

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