The Tavern

I'm coming back here after a while away, so I don't know if this has been discussed recently, but it seems like it would be helpful to have a subforum titled "General Crawl Discussion" or something similar.

Right now, there are basically four areas served by the forum:
1. Receive or dispense advice (Dungeon Crawling advice, CiP)
2. Voice opinions about game design (GDD)
3. Mini-tournaments (The Dart Board)
4. General fluff and low-effort posts (CYC)

Technically, everything that doesn't fit in 1-3 can be lumped into the category of CYC. That subforum has several clear problems for any sort of serious discussion, though. The name "Crazy Yiuf's Corner" does not lend itself to high-quality posting. Finding quality there is a crapshoot: There are some good threads, but they're diluted by a lot of others.

Because of this, I'm inclined not to post a lot on Tavern: Other people can usually give the same advice I would, and most advice topics are repeats of repeats. Game Design Discussion is a bit exhausting to post in, since it can quickly become "Whose Crawl opinions are the best", and CYC is, well, CYC. Having a spot where we could just discuss Crawl without the expectation to be giving or receiving advice would be a welcome change. As it is, I sometimes think of things to talk about, realize that my only option for them is Crazy Yiuf's Corner, and leave them unsaid (*depending on your feelings about my post quality, that might not be a bad thing).

Examples of things that would be posted there:
- Trunk updates and people's reactions
- Stories and moments from games
- Design questions

Current threads that fit what I have in mind, to give an example of expected content and tone:
"I think we learned an important lesson today"
"Thank you!"
"Classic moments in Crawl history"
"Shouldn't poison magic have some high level spells?"
"Trove reporting"
"I love it when..."

If the general consensus is that what we have works well enough for all those things, that's okay, but I've always found it odd that the main forum to discuss Crawl doesn't have a subforum for, well, simple discussion of Crawl.

This seems like a sane idea to me, and might better leave CYC to silliness.

I might agree if it was actually difficult to keep track of conversations in CYC because of traffic or something, but it's not. I don't think this is necessary at all; you can put high-quality posts in CYC, and lots of people do, and have decent conversations because of it.

That said, if people really want this, it's trivial to make another subforum, and it's not like the mods are overworked or anything. I would prefer leaving CYC as it is and creating a new "general discussion" forum for non-Crawl topics in that case, however.

GDD is actually "either make a long-winded proposal that isn't on the Won't Do list or call for a really simple adjustment".

It's true that they can and do, and if most people feel like that's enough, then there's no problem. My instinct, though (backed by my experience with CYC), is that the nature of an "anything goes" subforum, even one without overwhelming amounts of content, dissuades some more-serious discussion. I know it has for me at times.

Yeah, blade. Haven't you read the new GDD guidelines? They're quite explicit on this.

Your description wasn't my intention, Sar and HG. I'd be happy to further clarify that if it's not given enough prominence.

That said, I guess I kind of do see the attraction of having "proposals" forum and a "game discussion" forum, and it's possible splitting the latter out of CYC isn't a terrible idea. If njvack's on board, I'll be interested to hear what the other mods and posters think.

What? This is not a trait of GDD, this is a trait of individuals whom have a good understanding of how to successfully debate something with other intelligent individuals.

When discussing a heavy topic(duvessa did a good job of this with his thread about power creep) one must be detailed in post since it is the job of the responding individuals to then bring up important issues not already covered by the original post OR discuss things that WERE brought up but were not resolved. If you are to be too simple in your proposal, you will cause the thread to slow to a crawl(no pun intended) and they will often find themselves having people ask the same questions over and over again since the OP is usually the only post people read if there are more than 10 posts in a thread. This is a quality you will see in all forms of discussion, in politics this can be seen quite often(with the media player the role of the responders).

The above example is generally that of a multi-faceted discussion that involves justification for reasoning in addition to discussing positives and negatives and even sometimes discussing overarching factors such as the human equation or ethics(or in the world of GDD, design goals and balance).

However, the "simple adjustment" you speak of is used when approaching changes that do not require large amounts of detail. If a proposal does not require great detail and only involves a very specific portion of the game(such as the spell Ozo's for example), then trimming it down to be as simple as possible, making heavy use of general terms in order to imply answers to various question, is almost always considered the best option.

For example, when explaining the issues with Ozo's, its best to be simple and utilize general terms like this: "ozo's is problematic because it is a no-brainer to have it online to play optimally. It should be removed because the issue is fundamental of the spell and other fixes would only be a bandaid." In particular, note the use of "No brainer", "Problematic", "Fundamental", "Bandaid", and "optimally" that cover a large idea with simple key terms. This is generally the best way to approach a simple proposal. Obviously, there are other things to discuss about this particular issue, but keep in mind is is nothing more than an example.

Well, when I called for removing fleeing from dragons I pretty much wrote something like "Remove fleeing from dragons, they're dragons FFS, why do they always flee" and it worked!

I'll assume you're being tongue-in-cheek and note that this is pretty funny!

who

So is this happening or not? Archaeo, I believe this is your decision, right?

No, it's definitely not my decision. Indeed, I don't want to move on this without getting input from the other mods, as well as cthe devs who participate here. I also would like to discuss reorganizing the Tavern more broadly, because if we went forward with this change, it'd be a good opportunity to sort the subforums up in a way that better reflects how posters want to use this forum.

I've wanted to run polls and threads on things like "Favorite/Least 3 backgrounds" (similar to my favorite/least favorite species"

I've also wanted to open up a thread on the changes to Str Int Dex to bullshit about whether the Dex > Str/Int general case still applies.

I haven't done this because I've been busy and lazy rather than because there isn't a great place for it, but I would appreciate if such a forum existed.

Look at Proposal: split "Crazy Yiuf's Corner" if you like.

So, to update people on this, I think the mod team would generally prefer to tweak existing subforums instead of adding a new one. There's not much enthusiasm for a general "off-topic" section, and pulling the Crawl out of CYC would give us one. Furthermore, I'm skeptical that a "GCD" would really generate better discussion, unless it was moderated to the point it might as well be GDD.

Currently, all the topics proposed in the OP either are in CYC already or would be well received there. It's possible that a better description for the subforum would help, as well as a clarification of GDD's place as a discussion forum and not strictly a proposal forum. What would make a bigger difference is if people would post the kind of content they want to see, and reply to content they're interested in seeing more of. I'll also remind everyone that CYC isn't unmoderated, and using the report button or PMing an active mod is totally appropriate if you think a good discussion is getting derailed and would benefit from splitting a topic or moving posts.

That's a fair decision. I still don't love the style and feel of CYC, but the relatively limited size of this forum overall means that the more-serious threads that are posted there don't seem to be too drowned out. I'll keep looking for opportunities to add meaningful discussion topics. Thanks for the update!

It looks like you and me are the two people who are most interested in a new subforum. Your concern is to make a serious topic in a forum with a large variety of seriousness. Interestingly, I would also appreciate a split for another reason: sometimes making jokes in a forum which is supposed to exist for these reasons. I once posted a nonsense/ironic topic in CYC (about streaking speedruns) and was surprised that I got serious answers.

Well, as archaeo said, the mods are not in favour of a new subforum. Also, the poll I made about this question got 7/17 votes for yes, so there's obviously not much interest in it. I wonder if a split will be proposed by somebody else in some months or years...

This has happened to me too and this is why I would also like to have different forums for "less developed ideas" and jokes.

As you answered to my post here's something about this topic, written one year ago:


I thought the joke was obvious - but afterwards I had to explain it and even changed the title...
Topic is here.

It'd be nice to have a place to openly and seriously discuss game ideas that aren't fleshed out enough for GDD. CYC topics are vulnerable to getting spammed to death with idiotic poetry or stories about a dream someone had one time about elvish cats when they disagree with the OP...

Welcome to the supporters club.

I think my poll has little impact on the mods' decision but you are welcome to vote there.