Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 09:23

Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

[MOD EDIT: Split from the stickied "background/species abbreviation list" in YAVP/YASD forum.]

  Code:
Vine Stalker - VS
Formicid - Why the fuck are you playing this
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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 10:02

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

duvessa wrote:
  Code:
Vine Stalker - VS
Formicid - Why the fuck are you playing this

Because it is there and therefore is obviously something to be tried even if it only ends in headaches, broken motherboards and general sorrow?

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 10:14

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

duvessa wrote:
  Code:
Vine Stalker - VS
Formicid - Why the fuck are you playing this

You exude an air of negativity that, in my opinion, is harmful to this community. If you don't like it, then don't play it -- species and gods are metagame choices! This goes for the species, and for the game itself. There's so many other things to do! At the very least, please stop your constant barrage of reviling one-liners. I am pretty sick of them.

There are people who have fun playing Mummies, or Formicids, or Cheibriados, or Crawl. Get over it.

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 16:12

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

formicids are fo

so you can play foam

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 16:17

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

netkitten wrote:formicids are fo

so you can play foam


In fact, formicids are Fo, not fo. Obviously.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 27th April 2014, 21:37

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

dpeg wrote:
duvessa wrote:
  Code:
Vine Stalker - VS
Formicid - Why the fuck are you playing this

You exude an air of negativity that, in my opinion, is harmful to this community. If you don't like it, then don't play it -- species and gods are metagame choices! This goes for the species, and for the game itself. There's so many other things to do! At the very least, please stop your constant barrage of reviling one-liners. I am pretty sick of them.

There are people who have fun playing Mummies, or Formicids, or Cheibriados, or Crawl. Get over it.
Please stop assuming that everything I say is a personal attack on your ideals. I was making a joke, and it's a joke that's fairly popular in the crawl community already. Are you bothered by the learndb's "felid reasons" entry?
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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 06:42

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

duvessa wrote:
dpeg wrote:
duvessa wrote:
  Code:
Vine Stalker - VS
Formicid - Why the fuck are you playing this

You exude an air of negativity that, in my opinion, is harmful to this community. If you don't like it, then don't play it -- species and gods are metagame choices! This goes for the species, and for the game itself. There's so many other things to do! At the very least, please stop your constant barrage of reviling one-liners. I am pretty sick of them.

There are people who have fun playing Mummies, or Formicids, or Cheibriados, or Crawl. Get over it.
Please stop assuming that everything I say is a personal attack on your ideals. I was making a joke, and it's a joke that's fairly popular in the crawl community already. Are you bothered by the learndb's "felid reasons" entry?


Honestly I see where dpeg is coming from. His post doesn't seem like a response to an attack on his ideals so much as a response to the fact many of the posts you make on here seem either to be a direct criticism of the game or of the players who play it. Some of which are probably (certainly even) justified, but some just seem gratuitously negative. In this case I thought your joke was semi-funny but much of the time you do say things which while may be helpful/funny/witty also contain high degrees of acidity (and thus are hard to swallow). This sets the tone for others to follow. Making you a negative rolemodel.

As a relative new comer to this forum I have noticed some people are consistently helpful and also happen to be correct (see my not at all comprehensive list below). Others seem overly negative, argumentative, and unhelpful even when they are correct. Obviously there is history that I can't grok because I am newish but the impression I get from this is one of hostility to community and a kind of superior attitude. Arrogance can be justified because of actual accomplishments but those accomplishments speak much louder when unaccompanied by such an attitude. Humbleness is a difficult skill to master but it works wonders towards garnering you the respect you want, and deserve. For eg: Lasty, Seigurt, And into and Crate all seem relatively humble and also really good at giving advice and knowing the game.

Afaict this is what dpeg is responding to.

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 14:36

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

Well this thread took a bit of an unexpected turn...

I'd be careful of assigning too much weight to someone as a "bad role model." The "bandwagon effect" certainly is real and makes itself known, especially on the Internet, but most of the time when people are possibly, arguably being jerks I don't think it is because they are intentionally looking up to other people who act in this or that way. Not saying that we aren't influenced by such things, but honestly in my experience it is more common for people to use how others are acting as a pretext for doing what they actually wanted to do in the first place, anyway.

As for the positive side, I don't mind confessing that duvessa's deep knowledge of the game and willingness to call out what he thinks is BS means that there absolutely have been moments where I was more diligent about thinking through the advice I was giving and articulating it more carefully. Make of that what you will.

I understand dpeg's frustration due to how closely he identifies with the game; once you've spent enough time doing something you care about, that level of identification happens inevitably. (It is a collaborative project obviously but, if DCSS is any one person's "baby," it is his, clearly.)

On the other hand I think we need to be careful about calling people "a bad influence" and the like. Individual posts are absolutely subject to scrutiny and if someone thinks one of them goes too far, is derailing a thread, is degenerating into pointless bickering, is mean-spirited, etc., etc, that's what the report button is for.

But I'm reluctant to allow discussions about a user's "effect on the community" or any such similar sweeping and grand statements. Those discussions often lead to scapegoating and breed far more negativity and pettiness than they resolve. Incidentally, this principle also applies to posters whose viewpoints are not widely shared; they nevertheless have the right to argue their case, even if it isn't popular, just as others have the right to disagree with them, so long as they stay within the bounds of reasonable (if sometimes very heated) argumentative discourse.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 10:47

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

and into wrote:Well this thread took a bit of an unexpected turn...

I'd be careful of assigning too much weight to someone as a "bad role model." The "bandwagon effect" certainly is real and makes itself known, especially on the Internet, but most of the time when people are possibly, arguably being jerks I don't think it is because they are intentionally looking up to other people who act in this or that way. Not saying that we aren't influenced by such things, but honestly in my experience it is more common for people to use how others are acting as a pretext for doing what they actually wanted to do in the first place, anyway.

As for the positive side, I don't mind confessing that duvessa's deep knowledge of the game and willingness to call out what he thinks is BS means that there absolutely have been moments where I was more diligent about thinking through the advice I was giving and articulating it more carefully. Make of that what you will.

I understand dpeg's frustration due to how closely he identifies with the game; once you've spent enough time doing something you care about, that level of identification happens inevitably. (It is a collaborative project obviously but, if DCSS is any one person's "baby," it is his, clearly.)

On the other hand I think we need to be careful about calling people "a bad influence" and the like. Individual posts are absolutely subject to scrutiny and if someone thinks one of them goes too far, is derailing a thread, is degenerating into pointless bickering, is mean-spirited, etc., etc, that's what the report button is for.

But I'm reluctant to allow discussions about a user's "effect on the community" or any such similar sweeping and grand statements. Those discussions often lead to scapegoating and breed far more negativity and pettiness than they resolve. Incidentally, this principle also applies to posters whose viewpoints are not widely shared; they nevertheless have the right to argue their case, even if it isn't popular, just as others have the right to disagree with them, so long as they stay within the bounds of reasonable (if sometimes very heated) argumentative discourse.



With all due respect And, I think you may be a little too fond of Duvessa to see this objectively. The negative role-model I speak of isn't necessarily always a bad thing but it does tend to drag a community down when that is the impression given. "Oh this guy is clearly allowed to be nasty to people on x forum/threads so that must be the accepted way of doing things (ala 4chan and other troll-rich environments.)"

The roguelike community of course has its share of trolls but for the most part those who dedicate themselves to particular games in the genre are a cut above the rest of the internet. If we accept that there will be a certain amount of acrimony expressed by vets to those who come on and say stupid things and we don't say anything in response then newcomers will probably feel either they must also join this culture of sarcastic asshattery or be silent.

To be clear I think calling people on wrong advice and incorrect information is an invaluable service, and kudos to those who are dedicated enough to keep on top of this. It is not always easy when a game has many levers to sort out which ones are traps and which ones are to be avoided. But saying stuff like "Don't ever play xyz" has got to be wrong because everything in these games has a purpose unless they are bugs. Talking strategy of course means discussing optimal builds and efficient play but it should not neglect or obfuscate the paths less traveled or disparage them just because they don't win in the best manner.

I do agree that too much weight on this is bad and there is something to be said for a deterrent to gratuitous bs being in place. However that deterrent should be "Oh I don't want to seem like an idiot when I am corrected for my bad assumptions, maybe I should be be more careful in my text..." rather than "Oh I don't want to get into YAIF (yet another internet fight) over this, maybe I should stay quiet..." Stifling communication and discussion shouldn't be the aim here. My apologies if I have stepped on any toes.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 11:41

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

Hopeless: No, I don't think you stepped on any toes.

I think I am being fair in my assessment—otherwise I would have assessed differently—but then of course it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to be unbiased in one's judgments and observations of oneself. At any rate, I agree strongly with your last two paragraphs. As for the first two, I don't think any of the posters who have been mentioned in the course of this discussion are "trolls," in the real sense of that term. True trolls would/should be handled differently.

(I guess to clarify: A troll is someone who intentionally pretends to believe strongly and sincerely in <foo> in order to bait some group of people or some particular taste community, usually in terms of their common sense perspectives. In malicious cases, this is done spitefully simply in order to make fun of people who care about <bar>, but as with any sort of pranking there is a huge spectrum ranging from "all in good fun" to "actually evil" (as in cases of people trolling Facebook memorial pages to recently deceased people). However, oftentimes in Internet Arguments (TM) people who actually just disagree or perhaps don't even necessarily disagree all that much, but simply misunderstand each other, accuse each other of trolling.)
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 20:14

Re: Complete list of species/class abbreviations

and into wrote:Hopeless: No, I don't think you stepped on any toes.

I think I am being fair in my assessment—otherwise I would have assessed differently—but then of course it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to be unbiased in one's judgments and observations of oneself. At any rate, I agree strongly with your last two paragraphs. As for the first two, I don't think any of the posters who have been mentioned in the course of this discussion are "trolls," in the real sense of that term. True trolls would/should be handled differently.

(I guess to clarify: A troll is someone who intentionally pretends to believe strongly and sincerely in <foo> in order to bait some group of people or some particular taste community, usually in terms of their common sense perspectives. In malicious cases, this is done spitefully simply in order to make fun of people who care about <bar>, but as with any sort of pranking there is a huge spectrum ranging from "all in good fun" to "actually evil" (as in cases of people trolling Facebook memorial pages to recently deceased people). However, oftentimes in Internet Arguments (TM) people who actually just disagree or perhaps don't even necessarily disagree all that much, but simply misunderstand each other, accuse each other of trolling.)



I use a broader definition than you but it isn't "whomever disagrees is a troll." It is "Whomever uses inflammatory discussion tactics to enrage their enemies or otherwise insult their readers so as to provoke a response is a troll." The subtly of said trolling varies quite a lot from innuendo and implications to outright lies and baiting. Often times it is mild like being snarky or sarcastic instead of just discussing the subject neutrally. It can be full flame thrower mode too but that is generally not tolerated in any internet medium these days. (Well maybe on certain juvenile sites.)

/end of offtopic metadiscussion. :p

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:10

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

I think your definition of troll is incorrect Hopeless.

I'd call duvessa a lot of things. Unnecessarily negative, rude, dismissive, arrogent, etc. But I'd also call duvessa things like: knowledgeable, helpful, insightful...

A troll is someone who is trying to provoke a reaction from people, the subject matter is just the tool they use. Duvessa isn't a troll. Perhaps one could go so far as to say duvessa has trollish tendencies, but I'm at least as bad, although in different ways, and I don't think I'm a troll...

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:29

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Seeing my name attached to this thread title is going to confuse some people

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Post Friday, 2nd May 2014, 21:34

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Yeah, Duvessa is an elf not a troll.

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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 02:26

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Does aggression serve a social function?
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Post Saturday, 3rd May 2014, 02:49

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

mikee wrote:Does aggression serve a social function?


Instigation to prompt continuation of conversation?
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 02:49

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

duvessa wrote:Seeing my name attached to this thread title is going to confuse some people


Duvessa senpai, why does everyone bully you so much? You don't deserve to be publicly attacked like that by people... I-If you ever need a shoulder to cr-cry on, you can always come to m-m-m-me se-senpai... :oops:
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 14:01

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

In all honesty, I stopped caring about Duvessa's snide comments after the first few times he said things that back then I'd consider "hurtful" in response to my posts. He's always been like that ever since I joined these forums about 2 + 1/2 years ago. Sometimes he goes a bit soft and is not particularly obnoxious, tbh. And I'll admit I love his ms paint work. All in all I don't think he's a negative asset to our little community, at least whenever he bothers to explain the useful advice he has to offer.

An easy solution if you don't like someone's post is to just put them on your foes list. Seriously. Why does that feature even exist, I wonder? People want to change other people's characters without even trying to see the solutions available to them...

Now, when it comes to dpeg's concern about community management, I'm not qualified to assess that, I'll admit. But giving people the ability to filter who they get to deal with is enough, imo.
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 15:03

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

TehDruid wrote:In all honesty, I stopped caring about Duvessa's snide comments after the first few times he said things that back then I'd consider "hurtful" in response to my posts. He's always been like that ever since I joined these forums about 2 + 1/2 years ago. Sometimes he goes a bit soft and is not particularly obnoxious, tbh. And I'll admit I love his ms paint work. All in all I don't think he's a negative asset to our little community, at least whenever he bothers to explain the useful advice he has to offer.

An easy solution if you don't like someone's post is to just put them on your foes list. Seriously. Why does that feature even exist, I wonder? People want to change other people's characters without even trying to see the solutions available to them...

Now, when it comes to dpeg's concern about community management, I'm not qualified to assess that, I'll admit. But giving people the ability to filter who they get to deal with is enough, imo.


I think dpeg's attempted public defamation of character against duvessa is far more damaging to the community than duvessa
-senpai's attitude as a whole. I'm of the strong opinion that dpeg should give a public apology to duvessa for that.

I was going to write something along the line of what you said here, but I figured it wasn't going to get this thread going anywhere useful. All in all, you pretty much took the words right outa my mouth. You get used to him, and as long as he isn't acting that way in GDD it's no real harm done.
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 16:38

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

When I was young I was joking too much until I realized that most jokes is an aggressive act, making fun of other people to demonstrate superiority and alike.
I don't think one should apologize for suggesting to stop joking when it can hurt feelings of other people.
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 17:46

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Sandman25 wrote:When I was young I was joking too much until I realized that most jokes is an aggressive act, making fun of other people to demonstrate superiority and alike.
I don't think one should apologize for suggesting to stop joking when it can hurt feelings of other people.


You don't do it publicly though, that just causes forum drama. You should be pm'ing people about their attitudes, and in dpeg's case if that didn't work he could just talk to the mods about it and see if something should be done(like bans and the like).

Also, dpeg, what is with your problem with duvessa? Seriously, why do you guys have so much against each other? Duvessa isn't a bad guy dpeg, don't treat him like he is, especially in public. He isn't innocent by any means, he does contribute to a certain level of negativity on this forum, but if you think it's such a big deal then give him a warning ban for fucks sake, don't breed further negativity.

Duvessa-senpai does need to learn to be a little more humble, but that's never going to happen unless you try to humble him. Same with everybody else. But if you really want to neuter the negativity, fix the thanks system, that is what allows people to be snarky and mean while getting away with it.
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 17:49

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Tiktacy,
I don't understand how you can suggest to use private messages when you are using forum for similar things. Why didn't you PM whoever you wrote the above post for?
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 18:06

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

There's people that tend to say hurtful things. Enjoy it, even. Similarly there's people that take pride in trying to set others on the right path, thinking they know what's best for them. And there's people that get hurt over the most ridiculously mild negativity that someone might direct at them. People need to get off their high horse and admit that some of their ideas are shit and keep in mind that most of the others reading this forum just don't have the decency or even the capability to present the flaws in their ideas in a productive manner. After all when you think an idea is bad, you're bound to say ironic things and offend someone's intellect. Since this forum is male dominated, I think it's obvious why this aggressive behavior is so prevalent in topics than in private messages. We guys are just more blunt when we want to offend someone and their ideas. What I'm trying to say is, people are what they are and there's little you can do to change that, especially if they're strangers over the internet.

If the powers that be think Duvessa or anyone else is causing grief to the entire forum population, then ban him for a while and see if anything changes afterwards. Otherwise, having the foe list is enough, I think.
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 18:22

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

Sandman25 wrote:Tiktacy,
I don't understand how you can suggest to use private messages when you are using forum for similar things. Why didn't you PM whoever you wrote the above post for?


I'm trying to reach neutrality and resolution via pointing out flaws on both sides. I can't do that through a pm, otherwise I would. Besides, it was applicable to the point I was trying to make and is sort of acceptable in this context(since that's exactly what this thread is discussing).
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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 20:57

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

It doesn't seem fair at all that this thread has Duvessa's name on it, when it was actually moved here by a mod.

Dpeg is just a little moody sometimes, and flies off the handle. It's understandable that he's a bit touchy, but I do think this is something that would have been better handled in PMs from the start. Dpeg's whole post was completely in PM format already...

It's understandable, sometimes you want an audience, but I think dpeg's comments were more 'harmful to the community' than Duvessa's.

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Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 22:21

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

damiac wrote:It doesn't seem fair at all that this thread has Duvessa's name on it, when it was actually moved here by a mod.
Does phpBB even have a "merge topic" or "insert post" feature? Because if not it's kind of impossible to avoid this, and even if so, I don't think I'd describe it as unfair.
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Post Tuesday, 17th June 2014, 21:06

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

When I realized the degree of unwarranted superiority some forum members display, I stopped giving a f**k about what anybody around thinks about me or whatever I say.

Thus I just say whatever the hell I want, reputations be damned, if somebody thinks I'm stupid, they can jerk off to their own awesomeness for all I care.

At some point my opinion on the Tavern changed from "respectable game community" to "4chan-like piss ocean with occasional islands of sanity"
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Post Tuesday, 24th June 2014, 02:11

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

duvessa wrote:
damiac wrote:It doesn't seem fair at all that this thread has Duvessa's name on it, when it was actually moved here by a mod.
Does phpBB even have a "merge topic" or "insert post" feature? Because if not it's kind of impossible to avoid this, and even if so, I don't think I'd describe it as unfair.

It can merge topics, but it is very tedious and prone to messing things up in a hard-to-fix way.
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Post Tuesday, 24th June 2014, 02:17

Re: Metadiscussion of Negativity; Trolling

On the topic-at-hand: One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is from the same culture as you; we're spanning many regions of many countries with different social norms. Comments that seem normal to some are going to seem rudely terse to others, and the converse will be true as well.

I don't have a solution for this, other than to keep it in mind and try to give each other the benefit of the doubt.
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