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Is this where we can appeal for justice? You guys have some toxic mods involved (just mods, not any with dev status) who are blind to this sort of thing - punishment - and allowed this problem to get to this point. Some of their own actions have led to total disrespect here, for themselves and other posters.

If you're looking for a general "mods suck" thread, the "Suggestions & Criticism" forum is probably a better place. If you're talking about the @#!% "twelve is minmay" thing, I'm sorry and I agree with you. If it's more than that, I'm happy to engage in that discussion.

For what it's worth, I think moderation in GDD is gonna be a different beast than the other forums; I think devs are going to have a better sense of what's useful but critical feedback as opposed to toxic.

njvack wrote:If you're looking for a general "mods suck" thread, the "Suggestions & Criticism" forum is probably a better place. If you're talking about the @#!% "twelve is minmay" thing, I'm sorry and I agree with you.

It doesn't do enough to agree with me on a bad mod - excuse me, a bad ADMIN's behavior - you need to execute a plan. If you agree that it was and is harassment and an admin of all people is leading it, you have to quash it. If not, don;t ever act surprised when the culture exhibited by the admin is seized and spread by the posting public. This is a consequence of the culture displayed by one bad admin.

Sorry to hijack this but this is a discussion you guys should have behind closed doors anyway, and maybe condensed into a rules post later, hopefully by a decent admin this time

twelve, if some admin recently did something to you, pm another admin. The other users cannot do anything for you. If the other admins disagree or ignore you, either they have a real point that you are not seeing or there is a conspiracy against you. In either case you are screwed and complaining openly serves no purpose but to annoy other users.

As for the devs, please don't forget that many people like the game that you created. If there is someone rude just delete the post, pm the player and remember that we all sometimes get frustrated and make mistakes. Apply the banhammer if necessary. Also... this topic serves no purpose, especially in GDD.

Anyway, thanks devs.

Marbit wrote:twelve, if some admin recently did something to you, pm another admin. The other users cannot do anything for you. If the other admins disagree or ignore you, either they have a real point that you are not seeing or there is a conspiracy against you. In either case you are screwed and complaining openly serves no purpose but to annoy other users.

I went that route. Twice. An admin agrees with me. In private and openly. Even in this very thread I have admin support which you somehow missed. And it still happens. Thanks for your assumptions but they serve no purpose but to annoy other users.

A dev is complaining about a poster who isn't breaking any rules, by the dev's own admission. I am complaining about an admin who isn't breaking any rules (then again, he wrote the rules) but created a very bad posting culture. Which do you see creating a larger problem in the posting culture of the forum - a toxic poster who can be banned, or a toxic admin who cannot? I don't claim conspiricy or anything nutjob like you imply, my reasoning is very simple and you simply do not get it

I've split this off and moved it to S&C because it's a different discussion.

Ok so now seriously, nvjack you "agree" with me, where is the action? You guys are banning people in the thread this was split from and taking decisive public action and naming names. Where is the assurance that this activity is done for good? What will the repercussions be if it doesn't stop? Correcting bad admin behavior should be a huge priority, right? Whatever was tried in the past didn't work, yet this guy is still an admin and expected to be taken seriously.

twelwe: As I said long ago, your very first response to my joke (and yes I did intend it as a joke, one that I expected to be taken as such by someone posting a lot of satire on his own), was to viciously and personally insult me. Had you quietly pm'ed me and asked me to stop, I would have done so immediately. Had you only pressed the report button, it would have ceased forthwith. Had you merely opened a discussion thread in S&C about the issue, it would have been settled in short order. You did none of these things. Instead you chose to insult me. So I responded on that level.

I'm done doing it, and frankly I'm surprised you're still holding on to the hurt feelings. It was quite some time ago now.

you've said all that before, and deleted it, and I don't care for any reply from you on this matter. what I want to know now what the big boys will do about you when you start making (and deleting) offensive posts again, which you've never denied, because that is how you operate.

OK twelve, here's the haps: we don't have any kind of official procedure for, well, anything. It looks like a bunch of people doing basically whatever seems sane because that's exactly what it is. Do we need more mods? Maybe. Do we need more *structure* to moderation? I don't know, and I don't know what that would look like and how it would be enforced; we're just a few people doing this in our downtime. I think that if Grimm or I or dpeg or galehar decided to be full-on assholes we'd get yelled at by other mods and eventually banned. But there's nothing formal; it would all be case-by-case. I think cases would be interpreted differently in CYC versus GDD versus Advice.

Pertaining to this issue: What I saw was that Grimm made a silly (to me) joke in CYC, a bunch of times. It seemed to bug you, but I wasn't sure if it you were "fake" annoyed or really bothered, because CYC. When you seemed to be really actually bothered, I PM'ed Grimm and he told me he'd cut it out. When he didn't, I PM'd him again and he reiterated that; AFAIK he hasn't done it again. In my time on the Tavern, this is the first instance a mod and non-mod having a disagreement of this sort.

So, that's what I'd do. I'd talk to the people in question. If they said unreasonable things, I'd take it to a wider audience. In this case, the people I talked to said reasonable things.

I should clarify: there have been times in GDD where I thought devs got too personal and talked to them, and they've apologized.

So, to get this straight: you talked to him once and told him to stop or... well, nothing. He said he'd stop. Then when he didn't, you talked to him again and told him to stop or... what am I missing here? Maybe this is time to establish something. Maybe this is thetime to stop being indecisive and take action. Set an example. We want the players to respect the devs. We will ban extreme examples of players who repeatedly refuse to do this. But when it comes to admin repeat offenders who refuse to respect the players, just well we'll talk to him! Seriously is that the explaination?

njvack wrote: When you seemed to be really actually bothered, I PM'ed Grimm and he told me he'd cut it out. When he didn't, I PM'd him again and he reiterated that; AFAIK he hasn't done it again.

For the record, that second time was when I was intensely drunk. No excuse of course but there it is.

And twelwe, please note that njvack acted in good faith and without any formal complaint procedure on your part, just a barrage of insults. You are now asking for policies and procedures but you have shown that you do not follow policies and procedures.

@twelve: yes, you have it exactly. When I see people making each other unhappy here, I will talk to them. If they say "sorry I'll stop" and otherwise don't generally cause problems, great. If they say "fuck you man" or have a history of being an asshole, I'm apt to ban. If I have more concerns I'll bug galehar/dpeg/MarvinPA/brendan/napkin. Those are people you can talk to if you think I'm being out of line, as well. In the case of the recent thread in GDD, there have indeed been patterns of behavior that have been addressed in increasingly harsh ways. You need to be a really egregious asshole to get banned in one shot.

I don't have a concrete next step for what I would do if you're angry with Grimm again because it would depend on the circumstances and how you both conduct yourselves. If I saw what I'd seen between you happen with two other people, I would probably have warned you both and expected us all to go on with our lives.

My sense is that you feel like this past issue is not resolved. Is that correct?

Dammit, guys. Seriously, I thought this thread was about something else.

Honestly, I didn't know you were really upset and that you were insulting Grimm for real, twelve. I couldn't tell; who could?

Grimm wrote:And twelwe, please note that njvack acted in good faith and without any formal complaint procedure on your part, just a barrage of insults.

Whatever grimm, you don't know what you're talking about, I never insulted njvack and unless you can prove it I have some very strong words to answer that ridiculous assertion. Prove it or get out, you are no help here in this discussion. Seriously, go away, all you are doing now is throwing out false accusations against me. PROVE IT. I don't delete any of my posts so it should be real easy for you. your move.

Grimm wrote:You are now asking for policies and procedures but you have shown that you do not follow policies and procedures.

Another ridiculous assertion. No one has ever, ever told me I am breaking any rule, policy or procedure. Here is your chance to expose me. I don't delete any of my posts. Show some evidence or eat those words.

nvjack wrote: Those are people you can talk to if you think I'm being out of line, as well.

I have no idea where you are gettting this idea.

nvjack wrote:My sense is that you feel like this past issue is not resolved. Is that correct?

correct

if pratamawirya said anything relevant its going to have to be quoted because he's on ignore for perpetuating grimm's BS

Why is this a thread again? Seems like an issue between Grimm and twelwe to be honest. Unless you take "Suggestions and Criticisms" to mean any suggestion or criticism, I don't see why this isn't locked and solved privately in PM's. Just saying...

WalkerBoh wrote:Why is this a thread again? Seems like an issue between Grimm and twelwe to be honest. Unless you take "Suggestions and Criticisms" to mean any suggestion or criticism, I don't see why this isn't locked and solved privately in PM's. Just saying...

Try reading the thread. Resolutions were attempted through PMs. They didn't work. This was split from another similar thread, and an admin decided this was the appropriate place for it.

Oh sorry my bad, next time I'll try reading. This whole "patterns of letters" thing makes a lot more sense now.

Marbit wrote:The other users cannot do anything for you.

I call bullshit !

As the first Ziggurat Zagger, I HEREBY SUMMON THE POWERS OF THE TAVERN!

The Thanks of pratamamirya
The Arrogance of duvessa (is minmay)
The Vigilance of jejorda2
The Eagerness of Hirsch I
The Regulation of Confidence Interval
The Nuanced humor of varsovie

By your powers combined, I AM ... still a fucking useless user. Better go PM a moderator/admin.

XuaXua wrote:The Good tips of duvessa

FTFY. ('cause, you know, he's been very nice lately

)

I don't know the details of the story, since I rarely read Yiuf and this thread doesn't actually explain the problem. Anyway, I understand that Grimm has been out of line, and he has since apologized. Maybe a similar behaviour from a non-mod would warrant a temporary ban, I don't know, I haven't seen the details. The fact is that Grimm is a moderator and an admin of this board. You have to understand that being a moderator is something that people have volunteered for and is a task that they do in their free time. This isn't some kind of privileges.
As njvack explained, we don't have any formal procedure to handle this, so let's improvise. On one hand, Grimm has been contributing to the forum for years by moderating, writing rules and general admin tasks. I think that earned him some credit. On the other hand, being a moderator also comes with some responsibility about displayed behaviour and discretion about using moderator's power. I know, I have faced the problem before. We're not just moderators, we are also active members and take part in discussions.

So I say we consider this as a formal warning to Grimm and take no further action for now. Also, I think it's important that moderators do not moderate themselves the discussions they are taking part in. It's better to ask for other moderators to step in and take appropriate action. Mods can use the report button too.

galehar wrote:I think it's important that moderators do not moderate themselves the discussions they are taking part in. It's better to ask for other moderators to step in and take appropriate action. Mods can use the report button too.

This is sage advice; I hadn't thought of it that way. This rule has served slashdot well over the years.

Also, I'm well aware that I don't read the Tavern nearly as closely as I used to. Feel free to PM me if you want my immediate attention, and if y'all feel like more mods (or replacing me with a younger, better mod

are in order, I won't be offended in the least.

pratamawirya wrote:
XuaXua wrote:The Good tips of duvessa

FTFY. ('cause, you know, he's been very nice lately )

What the heck is a TGVERN?

There's no "G" in TAVERN.

galehar wrote:I don't know the details of the story, since I rarely read Yiuf and this thread doesn't actually explain the problem. Anyway, I understand that Grimm has been out of line, and he has since apologized. Maybe a similar behaviour from a non-mod would warrant a temporary ban, I don't know, I haven't seen the details. The fact is that Grimm is a moderator and an admin of this board. You have to understand that being a moderator is something that people have volunteered for and is a task that they do in their free time. This isn't some kind of privileges.
As njvack explained, we don't have any formal procedure to handle this, so let's improvise. On one hand, Grimm has been contributing to the forum for years by moderating, writing rules and general admin tasks. I think that earned him some credit. On the other hand, being a moderator also comes with some responsibility about displayed behaviour and discretion about using moderator's power. I know, I have faced the problem before. We're not just moderators, we are also active members and take part in discussions.

So I say we consider this as a formal warning to Grimm and take no further action for now. Also, I think it's important that moderators do not moderate themselves the discussions they are taking part in. It's better to ask for other moderators to step in and take appropriate action. Mods can use the report button too.

Thanks for this, but to be clear, there was absolutely no apology on Grimm's behalf, nor even an acknowledgement of wrongdoing on any level. maybe he apologized, in private, to someone else, but certainly not to me.

That's because you never asked me for an apology. All you did was viciously insult me, from day one. If anyone should apologize, it's you.

Grimm wrote:That's because you never asked me for an apology. All you did was viciously insult me, from day one. If anyone should apologize, it's you.

You're going to ignore all those dumb accusations you made against me in this very thread too, right? The ones I told you to prove? Go ahead Grimm, now is your chance to expose me. Here, we'll set it in stone: if you're right on those two above counts I asked to you prove, I will apologize. If you can't prove them, you will apologize. Agree or disagree, now is your chance

Again, you have charged that I:

Grimm wrote:And twelwe, please note that njvack acted in good faith and without any formal complaint procedure on your part, just a barrage of insults.

Whatever grimm, you don't know what you're talking about, I never insulted njvack and unless you can prove it I have some very strong words to answer that ridiculous assertion. Prove it or get out, you are no help here in this discussion. Seriously, go away, all you are doing now is throwing out false accusations against me. PROVE IT. I don't delete any of my posts so it should be real easy for you. your move.

Grimm wrote:You are now asking for policies and procedures but you have shown that you do not follow policies and procedures.

Another ridiculous assertion. No one has ever, ever told me I am breaking any rule, policy or procedure. Here is your chance to expose me. I don't delete any of my posts. Show some evidence or eat those words.

galehar wrote:I don't know the details of the story, since I rarely read Yiuf and this thread doesn't actually explain the problem. Anyway, I understand that Grimm has been out of line, and he has since apologized.

since he didn't, that should change a lot. He will probably troll me again, after being told twice to stop by another admin. no regret, no thought of wrongdoing. grimm doesn't think he did anythinig wrong, so why expect him to act otherwise? grimm doesn't think he did anything wrong again, despite other admins telling him explicitly not only is it wrong but to STOP and he could not.

To be fair, I think Grimm was saying you insulted him rather than me, and I'm inclined to agree that being called a creepy stalker is both an insult and mischaracterization (unless he's doing stuff like repeatedly calling your phone or emailing threatening messages or going to your house in which case call the police, not us).

Putting my "daddy" hat on, I think both of you are reasonable to expect an apology. Putting my "we are all old enough to type complete sentences here" hat on, I'm gonna let you decide if that's something you're willing to do.

Now I'm gonna put my daddy hat on again, because I think it looks cute.

Anyway, I understand that Grimm has been out of line, and he has since apologized.

still waiting on this one

njvack wrote:To be fair, I think Grimm was saying you insulted him rather than me, and I'm inclined to agree that being called a creepy stalker is both an insult and mischaracterization (unless he's doing stuff like repeatedly calling your phone or emailing threatening messages or going to your house in which case call the police, not us).

Grimm was told to stop and could not, no one ever told me to stop replying to that BS he was spreading. i made it very clear that if he followed me with that chant I would call him a creep and a stalker, and if he deleted posts I would call him a pussy. he continued to do both so I continued to call him a creepy stalker and a pussy.

dpeg put it perfectly in the toxic feedback thread:

dpeg wrote:galefury: Would you say the same if you were on the receiving end? Also, there is an actual problem with allowing such posts: it sets a role model for other posters who may come to think that it's perfectly alright to behave like this.

again NO ONE TOLD ME TO STOP OR THAT IT WAS WRONG TO REPLY. grimm was told to stop twice and couldn't by an ADMIN. he is clearly in the wrong here. Grimm allowed people to harass me because he was leading the chant, so the culture was created and other posters believed it was perfectly alright to go in my threads and start that stupid chant. he created that culture, he was told to stop, and didn't. he is clearly in the wrong here!

And lets be even more clear: I continued to call him a creep and a pussy AFTER he continued to troll me even after he was told to stop, yet I was never told this behavior was wrong until now. I don't owe him any apology but if he can prove those two above things he'll get it because I am true to my word, where he refuses to back up his own. i will never back down from my words, never.

Here are your two proofs:

1) "I never insulted njvack" - As njvack correctly points out, I was referring to your insulting of me, not of nvjack. You have misunderstood me in a very crude fashion and as a result put false words in my mouth. Therefore your charge is null.

2) "I never violated policies"

Really Short Forum Rules! Please Read!:

* Do not harass or insult other users. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Also, be aware that what matters is what the moderators consider insulting. It doesn't matter whether offence was intended or not. Those who insult others, intentionally or not, are not welcome here.

As you admit above, you have called me names on numerous occasions, including your very first direct response to my humorous joak, and have in this thread refused to stop doing so.

You have also gratuitously insulted other users who participated in the joke, for example here: viewtopic.php?p=112563#p112563 Note too that in that thread danr came in and said it was over, and I accepted his statement (via thanking it and pm). Your response on the other hand was to unleash a jeremiad.

Therefore you have clearly violated the policy of no insults.

"I never violated procedures"

You Must Read This Before Posting in GDD

If you feel a criticism is personal or unwarranted, use the report button or pm a moderator.

Admittedly that's in the GDD sticky but it's been stated often enough in enough other places that it constitutes the standard procedure for reacting to attacks, a procedure that has been followed by many forum participants.

Also, in this post danr explicitly instructed you to continue the discussion via private chat, which you did not, then or ever.

Therefore you have clearly not followed the procedure of "pm or report button", and not followed a specific procedural instruction from the chief admin.

Conclusion: Your first point is a null set, and your second I have adequately shown to be in my favor.

I await your apology.

The first point is not null. I don't care if you wrote it wrong.

I said:

No one has ever, ever told me I am breaking any rule, policy or procedure.

not

"I never violated procedures"

which are words you are stuffing in my mouth. you put quotes around them for some reason, don't know why, because it isn't a quote of mine, just something you misunderstood

And that danr post?

Also, be aware that what matters is what the moderators consider insulting. It doesn't matter whether offence was intended or not. Those who insult others, intentionally or not, are not welcome here.

And now: let there be no more dicking in the forum. Do that in a private chat if you must.

......am i missing something? where am i being accused of breaking any rule, policy or procedure? "let there be no more dicking in this forum"

you even missed the most important post:

Tlwelwe, modding this forum is not a paid job. Grimm should not have harassed you. He was just being a goof. No malicious stalking or anything creepy.

Then you continued, and were told to stop, and continued yet again.

Mods, thou shouldst refrain from poking members of the flock. It distresses them and toughens the meat, much to my displeasure when I finally consume them.

And Users, in this case twelwe: if thou admitest to posting like a dick and insist on the right to continue posting in such a manner, thou shouldst not be surprised if thou art mistaken for minmay, or if others take pleasure in dicking you in return.

And now: let there be no more dicking in the forum. Do that in a private chat if you must.

nowhere does he tell me i am breaking any policy or procedure

you are in the wrong here

The sticky post tells you that you are breaking the policy. You read it before posting, didn't you?

And my assertion was that you had not followed policies, not that no one had told you about the policies. You can't ask someone to prove something that they never asserted. I backed up what I actually said.

I'll reiterate the words of the illustrious danr:

And now: let there be no more dicking in the forum. Do that in a private chat if you must.

I think all this laundry has been publicly aired at great length.

I am convinced that Grimm and Confidence Interval are the same person.

haha i love this too

As you admit above, you have called me names on numerous occasions, including your very first direct response to my humorous joak, and have in this thread refused to stop doing so.

You have also gratuitously insulted other users who participated in the joke , for example here: viewtopic.php?p=112563#p112563 Note too that in that thread danr came in and said it was over, and I accepted his statement (via thanking it and pm). Your response on the other hand was to unleash a jeremiad.

It was never a joke, it was harassment. you just don't get it and still think it was some hillarious joke you created. you will probably never understand why you are wrong because you continue to defend this idea that all you were doing was joking around and not a big deal whatsoever, yet, you claim to understand this following danr post because you quoted it in your own argument:

Also, be aware that what matters is what the moderators consider insulting. It doesn't matter whether offence was intended or not. Those who insult others, intentionally or not, are not welcome here.

I repeat, the difference between what you did and what I did is that you were told repeatedly in private to stop and were unable (oh excuse me, you were drunk)

The sticky post tells you that you are breaking the policy. You read it before posting, didn't you?

No, it doesn't. The sticky says all sorts of things, but until someone steps in and says "what you are doing is wrong," then there is no reason to believe I was breaking any rule. keep in mind that I was in the middle of replying to this harassment campaign of yours, what you continue to refer to as a joke, and was replying in kind. You set the example, grimm, you are the admin after all. And unless you claim some special privilege, there is absolutely no reason why you should get away with this crap. you are in the wrong here

duvessa wrote:I am convinced that Grimm and Confidence Interval are the same person.

We are. Notice how you never see us online at the same time.

Lets not forget this gem:

Grimm wrote:mumra is absolutely correct. twelwe is a special individual and had the nous that the rest of you bandwagon-hopping johnnies-come-lately lack to ask for a special colour to mark his (its?) specialness out.

He (they?) also made me laugh with the line "lol, but back to my ideas." What have the rest of you done lately, or ever?

No more colours.

And as I said, my posting never changed before or after you marked me with a color. You legitimized my posting style, so you can't come back and say oh no that was wrong, you were breaking rules and you knew it!

You lead by example, Grimm, I am sorry you don't understand what influence you wield but you really botched this up big time and it looks bad for you. you are in the wrong here

Seems like this thread is having the opposite of the intended effect. Instead of resolving the conflict it's just making twelwe even angrier about it. So uh, seems like a good time to try something else.

Unless this entire thread is the greatest joke twelwe ever played, in which case I am in awe.

That's enough. Solve your stuff in private. twelwe, if you have something to complain about, write down a report and push the button.

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