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bel

Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 13:42

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

The comment about AlphaZero above brings to my mind another observation. AlphaZero also learnt how to play StarCraft expertly. I am not a StarCraft player, but from what I understand, AlphaZero just spammed a cheap and fast unit and then used superior micro to take down human players. This makes me ...

bel

Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 13:20

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

It's definitely possible. XL is a rather coarse measure -- using XP would be better. Unfortunately, there is no fine-grained measure of XP which I can get from Sequell data. At least, I don't know how to do it, maybe some Sequell wizards can figure it out. Many things in-game depend on XL, so it's n...

bel

Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 12:26

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

I do not understand what any of that really means. Yeah you can theoretically calculate difficulty based on vault weights, spawn weights, odds of various combat events etc. That's a bit like saying that you can model human behaviour by using quantum mechanics because everything is based on physics a...

bel

Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 05:46

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

Stuff. I haven't replied to your comments because: ⋅  You agree that id should be removed. ⋅  You agree that early game difficulty is harder than later game. ⋅  You agree that removing id would make early game easier. ⋅  You think this outcome is ok. The rest...

bel

Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 05:46

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

[This discussion happened in another thread , but I think it belongs better here.] tealizard dissents from this entire approach of using Sequell queries to determine game difficulty: Incidentally, the plots from the other thread are essentially a souped up version of the Sequell query arguments tha...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 21:16

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

My proposal is to remove all identification, and make all items identified by default. This would mean consumables, weapons, armour etc.

I am not opposed to identification of some subset, but I don't really see any advantages to this proposal.

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 20:31

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

One should be careful of generalizing from veteran players' experience. Almost 60% of all characters die on D:1-4. That "should" not happen, assuming reasonably competent play. One should not be designing game difficulty based on hypothetical optimal play, but rather how people generally ...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 18:56

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

One should be careful of generalizing from veteran players' experience. Almost 60% of all characters die on D:1-4. That "should" not happen, assuming reasonably competent play. One should not be designing game difficulty based on hypothetical optimal play, but rather how people generally p...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 18:20

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

I actually made no argument about the shape of the "ideal difficulty curve" (I will give my thoughts on that topic in another thread). I merely made the observation that the early game is hard, indeed much harder than the later game. I inferred from this statement, that you were trying to...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 17:05

Forum: YASD! YAVP! and characters in progress too

Topic: YAVP: first caster win (GrEE^Veh)

Replies: 3

Views: 523

Re: YAVP: first caster win (GrEE^Veh)

Congrats on your win.

Blinking has a failure chance when being constricted, but if you try it 2-3 times, you will generally succeed. Teleportation chance doesn't depend on constriction, AFAIK.

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 16:11

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Re: Remove the id game (new reason)

I also actually question your implied premise -- that the early game *should be* close to as as difficult as the later game. In fact, I think that would make the game much less appealing. I would argue to most people it *feels better* if their character, once established and leveled up somewhat, fe...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 14:16

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Skill points

Replies: 11

Views: 1465

Skill points

The XP curve in the game is very weird. There's also another mechanic in the game: skill points . The curve for the skill points depends on character XL, so it is inherently filled with breakpoints. Also, the formula for dependence on XL is this extremely weird function (the horizontal axis should s...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 13:43

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Remove the id game (new reason)

Replies: 56

Views: 6901

Remove the id game (new reason)

There have been many posts before about removing identification. I won't rehash all the old arguments, but rather provide some new ones, based on my recent experiments. As you can see from my plots in this thread , the early game is very hard (relatively speaking). This proposition is not seriously ...

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 07:57

Forum: YASD! YAVP! and characters in progress too

Topic: YAVP: OpFi^Gozag | For once, food was a problem

Replies: 7

Views: 895

Re: YAVP: OpFi^Gozag | For once, food was a problem

Keep in mind that you are playing 0.24 (trunk?); however, I doubt that food generation has been changed significantly since 0.23.

You could also have missed a food vault somewhere. There's that vault with the bees and there's another vault with the jellies.

bel

Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 04:05

Forum: YASD! YAVP! and characters in progress too

Topic: YAVP: OpFi^Gozag | For once, food was a problem

Replies: 7

Views: 895

Re: YAVP: OpFi^Gozag | For once, food was a problem

You can use objsta t to check these suspicions. In 0.23, in a 3-rune game with Swamp and Snake, about 124 rations are generated on average. From your action table, you ate 109 rations and 8 rations existed in your inventory at the end of the game. This number presumably includes the rations you got ...

bel

Monday, 1st July 2019, 18:05

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Replies: 25

Views: 2700

Re: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Character looks fine. Don't die due to hubris.

You can train Axes past 18 (which is min-delay for broad axe). The extra training increases damage, and more damage is always good.

bel

Monday, 1st July 2019, 17:58

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Has anyone done a Beogh high priest run?

Replies: 0

Views: 579

Has anyone done a Beogh high priest run?

High priests are probably much tougher to play with than warlords, but if you give them plate armour to wear, they will probably not be that squishy. Wiki says they have about 70-80 HP (maybe, with enough training, they'll reach 100 or so). Of course, it's not "optimal" (or even fun), but ...

bel

Monday, 1st July 2019, 17:54

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

I didn't calculate it, but I highly doubt that the game becomes much tougher after Lair, given the shape of the other graphs. All indications are that the game keeps becoming easier.

bel

Monday, 1st July 2019, 15:45

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

Some more plots, this time of the difficulty of each floor. Dungeon only goes till D:8 because otherwise the calculations for randomized Lair entrances become too hairy. I plotted difficulty of each floor from D:1 to D:8 (later floors become problematic because of randomized Lair entrances)....

bel

Sunday, 30th June 2019, 18:02

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Replies: 25

Views: 2700

Re: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

No.

bel

Sunday, 30th June 2019, 15:09

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Replies: 25

Views: 2700

Re: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

You have a +4 vampiric executioner's axe, which is a really good weapon. 60% of the time you hit a living monster with it, it will heal you based on how much damage you did. An executioner's axe does a ton of damage, so you'll get healed a lot in-combat, which makes it very hard to die. If you are w...

bel

Sunday, 30th June 2019, 06:59

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Replies: 25

Views: 2700

Re: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Finish Orc mines and Dungeon before doing the Lair branches. Snake is a bit easier than Shoals. Keep in mind that Nagas are slow and snakes are fast, so split them apart to make them easier to fight. There's also plenty of cover in Snake and very little cover in Shoals. Watch out for Guardian Serpen...

bel

Sunday, 30th June 2019, 06:12

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Thanks Devs for the Gauntlet!

Replies: 17

Views: 2713

Re: Thanks Devs for the Gauntlet!

Thanks for replacing Lab with Gauntlet. It is great. More importantly, it's much better than Lab, in every possible way.

bel

Sunday, 30th June 2019, 04:54

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Replies: 52

Views: 9150

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Also, I've said this elsewhere: exploration-based piety is bad. Nemelex should give piety on kills. Unlike some gods like Ash where exploration-based piety could be justified for "flavour" reasons, there's no real justification for exploration-based piety for Nemelex. From what I understan...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 17:41

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Replies: 52

Views: 9150

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Btw, about the discussion about degeneration above: I think it's a good card. The polymorphed monster typically has lower HD than the original. Also, it has great potential for lulz. From one of my old games : You draw a card... It is Degeneration. The death yak evaporates and reforms as a storm dra...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 17:33

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Replies: 52

Views: 9150

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Also, it's not clear why card power uses both invo and piety. power = (invocations * 9) + (piety * (invocations + 25)) / 27 + piety * (3/2) It should only use invo. Piety is a consumable, invo is a training choice. Usually, when I want my god to do more powerful things, I train more invo. That behav...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 13:58

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Replies: 52

Views: 9150

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Good to see goldified decks from Nemelex. Not sure if I quite like the hard cap on deck sizes, but maybe it's ok. From a little bit of code-diving, it looks like gifts from Nemelex increase the gift timeout whether you receive cards or not. If I understand the timeout mechanic correctly, this means ...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 10:03

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

From the graph above, we can see that there are roughly two parts of the graph: from turn 1-1000, and from turn 1000 onwards. Here are zoomed-in graphs for the two periods, with significant events labeled. (This is for all players; the tenpercenters graph is similar). Keep in mind that these are all...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 03:22

Forum: The Dart Board

Topic: Crawl Bonus Tournament

Replies: 13

Views: 3822

Re: Crawl Bonus Tournament

Oops double post.

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 03:22

Forum: The Dart Board

Topic: Crawl Bonus Tournament

Replies: 13

Views: 3822

Re: Crawl Bonus Tournament

Just go to Orc if you''ve cleared it and spawn some jellies; you'll hit max piety almost immediately.

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 02:22

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

Replies: 25

Views: 2700

Re: Newby advice for Minotaur Fighter

A lot depends on what god you choose. Good gods for new players are Trog, Okawaru, Makhleb and Yred. If you want to play with Trog, you might want to start as a Berserker instead of Fighter, since you get to worship Trog from the start. Minotaurs are good with all weapons and you can use shields if ...

bel

Saturday, 29th June 2019, 02:08

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

There are labels on the horizontal axes -- you just have to scroll a little bit since the image is a little too big.

bel

Friday, 28th June 2019, 18:22

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

I created plots for difficulty level based on turns. The turns are on a log scale. Data under the spoiler tag. I used queries of the form: "!lg * !boring 0.22 / !won turn>50 turn<76" The left end of the graph starts at turn 25. I used small bucket sizes at low turns and bigger buckets at h...

bel

Friday, 28th June 2019, 10:07

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

Another idea could be to calculate difficulty in game turns, instead of XL. Assuming a player plays at roughly the same rate throughout the game, we could then see how "smooth" the difficulty level they experience, as they play the game. The relevant Sequell query would be "!lg * !bor...

bel

Friday, 28th June 2019, 09:56

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Re: Difficulty vs XL

First derivative of difficulty (the data is underneath the spoiler tag): All players XL Prob of dying at XL Prob of surviving to XL+1 Probability of dying at XL given that you’ve reached XL First Derivative of Difficulty 1 14.26 85.74 14.26 2 8.49 77.25 9.90202939118265 -4.35797060881735 3 12.25 65 ...

bel

Friday, 28th June 2019, 06:43

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Difficulty vs XL

Replies: 52

Views: 7959

Difficulty vs XL

How difficult is the game as we go along? What is the relationship between experience level and difficulty? This question has obvious implications for the XP curve in-game. We can try to answer the question using this measure: Difficulty at experience level XL = Probability of dying at experience le...

bel

Friday, 28th June 2019, 01:32

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Power spiral

Replies: 23

Views: 4291

Re: Power spiral

There's one idea I have for consumables which might reduce the associated power spiral. Currently, consumables are generated based on exploration. I have discussed elsewhere why exploration-based piety is bad, and similar comments apply here. What if we generate consumables only on monster kills? Th...

bel

Thursday, 27th June 2019, 10:35

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Fedhas rework (again)

Replies: 15

Views: 3444

Re: Fedhas rework (again)

Did anything come of this proposal? Seems to me like it had a fair bit of interest at the time.

bel

Thursday, 27th June 2019, 05:09

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Player XP curve

Replies: 3

Views: 965

Re: Player XP curve

I am not opposed to complicated formulae which give better results than simplistic formulae. Crawl has tons of different mechanics, and sometimes complicated formulae better capture the various interactions. However, we should have in mind an objective. If we have an idea of what the XL curve is try...

bel

Thursday, 27th June 2019, 02:29

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Player XP curve

Replies: 3

Views: 965

Player XP curve

The player XP need to attain various levels has the following comment as preamble: // Note: For historical reasons, all of the following numbers are for a // species (like human) with XP aptitude 1, not 0 as one might expect. // Basic plan: // Section 1: levels 1- 5, second derivative goes 10-10-20-...

bel

Thursday, 27th June 2019, 02:15

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Use monster experience instead of HD in piety gain calc

Replies: 2

Views: 1022

Use monster experience instead of HD in piety gain calc

Monster HD is a fundamental mechanic in the game. However, there is only a very loose relationship between monster HD and how dangerous it actually is. This fact is recognized by the game when it tries to calculate the XP a monster gives on death ("exper_value"). See this function. Now, it...

bel

Thursday, 27th June 2019, 00:43

Forum: Dungeon Crawling Advice

Topic: Riposte Swordsman Advice

Replies: 9

Views: 1899

Re: Riposte Swordsman Advice

Just ignore riposte and play as you normally would. Long blades are fine as weapons. They have good damage and there's a fair variety of one- and two-handed versions. They're also fairly common. If you're playing with Dithmenos, keep in mind that long blades cross-train with short blades, and you ca...

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 08:29

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Danger level

Replies: 4

Views: 796

Re: Danger level

I don't really see what's special about Abyss and Hell. The "danger level" would definitely depend on status effects on the character. Whether lignification is more "dangerous" or less "dangerous" depends on what's on the screen, the character's offence and defence. Of ...

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 08:22

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Divine Exegesis: I heard you like big spells

Replies: 5

Views: 1233

Re: Divine Exegesis: I heard you like big spells

It looks that you can cast any spell in the "library", not just the memorized spells.

Seems ok. It costs a ton of piety and Sif piety gain is pretty slow to begin with.

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 05:28

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Reforming the scoring function

Replies: 31

Views: 2876

Re: Reforming the scoring function

Once again, I'd like to suggest that there is no perfect way to create score, and while we maybe can refine the parameters of the one best scoring system, it will never satisfy everyone. On the other hand, introducing multiple systems of scoring could. Indeed, the aim of the scoring function outlin...

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 05:12

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Reforming the scoring function

Replies: 31

Views: 2876

Re: Reforming the scoring function

In a game with RNG, the influence of luck is inevitable. That does not mean that the role of time is useless. Quite the contrary: the time taken gives a lot of information on how the game went. To be (more or less) comparable, two runs would need the same game seed. Indeed, since now game seed has b...

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 04:59

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Danger level

Replies: 4

Views: 796

Re: Danger level

Yes, I agree that tension is a made up measure. To be fair, the "danger level" would also be some kind of measure based on enemy HD and character XL, with a bunch of hacks in the middle. The measure needs to be easy to calculate. The aim is to approximate actual danger as well as possible....

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 01:50

Forum: Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Topic: Danger level

Replies: 4

Views: 796

Danger level

[The following is related to this thread I created. However, this idea is completely stand-alone] Suppose we want to calculate: "how much danger is our character in right now"? It is difficult to calculate this exactly. DCSS damage formulae are insane, and there are all kinds of interacti...

bel

Wednesday, 26th June 2019, 00:17

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Jiyva Rework

Replies: 2

Views: 723

Re: Jiyva Rework

* When Jelly dies, you receive a piety/200 chance of increasing your satiation by 70(Only jelly. It doesn't apply to other slimes). * When Jelly dies, you receive a piety/200 chance of recovering some MP(Only jelly. It doesn't apply to other slimes). * When Jelly dies, you receive a piety/200 chanc...

bel

Tuesday, 25th June 2019, 23:47

Forum: Game Design Discussion

Topic: Better DD

Replies: 18

Views: 3162

Re: Better DD

Just as an idea: one mechanic which could be used instead of the "heal on kills" is the Bloodborne "rally" mechanic. Whenever you take damage, for a short time afterwards, if you damage a monster, you regain some HP. This mechanic promotes a fast-paced style of play. Bloodborne a...
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