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Personally by mid game I tend to stop training spell skills once I have reached a comfortably low failure rate for the spell I want to cast and start training other skills till I find another spell I want to train up for.

If you can choose the level, you would always choose a safe level.
If you are transported to a completely random branch/level, then that is a high chance of instant death in the early game.

If the idea is some sort of referential joke, then it doesn't belong in game design discussion.

I was just about to write that lvl 1 spells should almost never be useful as you simply wouldn't have the training to use them, except possibly for magic dart, and if you could spare the experience, you are mostly better off not training it but training a weapon skill. Only Fire and Air backgrounds ...

I like to generally start with Polearms and during the first few floors, I often find a branded something to use temporarily (without investing any skills training in it). But sometimes, that short use ends up being much longer like in my current game: I found a +2 dagger of venom very early and I'...

VAF, it's not a trick question. I can't beleive you wrote that there is no answer. The answer is YES. Jeez. How disappointing. This is a question that can be worked out intuitively. That you can't work that out, or is unwilling to simply type yes, and then try to cover it by spamming 3 further nonse...

You are kind of right about the casting menu. Anyways, he does feel lackluster, till you have lvl9 spells and are not losing MP from killing masses of mmonsters in Zig or whatever. But I think that is fine as you don't need to train invocations to use his abilities. Though he could be feeling lacklu...

I was talking about usefulness, Siegurt was saying that *efficiency* can be different, now you are saying that there is no difference in *effectiveness*. If each of two bets allowed me to double my money, the bets are not necessarily equally useful/effective/efficient because one of them might brin...

I don’t know why you insist on making a fool of yourself VAF. Anyways that’s just you being unable to yet again unable to understand the difference between offence and defence, and that the relative values must be worked out differently. The maths is simple, but you keep applying the wrong working m...

One can also not argue seriously under the assumption that perfect play would mean you will always survive, nor that you always will be able to face packs monsters one on one, especially when troll packs can have ranged attacks, dig and haste.

Veh doesn't require any invocation training to use his god abilities so I think Veh is perfectly fine. His spell gifts are kinda awful though. I never seem to have the spell slots open to take advantage of it. Sometimes by the time I have trained up for it, the spell has already been replaced. "...

From 6% to 42% is huge. That a sevenfold increase in chance. Is that just from one Yara or multiple?

I would say that it is cblink that made tomb "safe" for you, noobcrawl, not that you had firestorm and cblink. I could be wrong though. I suspect that if you didn't have cblink, you wouldn't have considered it safe. Conversely, I don't know whether if you had lvl 6-8 spells fire and/or des...

More fsims. First character. Without shield and with shield: AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam Defending: 26,9 | 55 | 18% | 4,9 | 100 | 1,00 | 4,9 Defending: 26,4 | 55 | 5% | 1,4 | 100 | 1,00 | 1,4 Second character. Without shield and with shield: AvHitDam | MaxDam ...

You PM me to tell me not to reply back to you, that you have placed me on your foes list and cannot see my posts, and now you are quoting me and carrying on your nonsense? I can only but laugh. I wanted to write "my last attempt to explain obvious things despite my decision to ignore you talki...

Bel, people argue about crawl all the time. You don't have to read this thread if you don't want to. Is it hurting you? It's actually pretty rare where maths is involved that one side would refuse to be persuaded even when proven demostrably wrong. I tried to divert the off-topic to CYC, but they in...

You PM me to tell me not to reply back to you, that you have placed me on your foes list and cannot see my posts, and now you are quoting me and carrying on your nonsense?
I can only but laugh.

It would help if either of you could actually tell me why or what you are doing, but you both steadfastedly refused to do so, prefering to insist I am wrong. I might as well turn it around and ask you where I am wrong. There's a whole thread to it where I laid out my methods, but then you ran away t...

I would say that a character that press and holds tab vs deep troll packs faces about the same chance vs a lich. The only difference is escape options once your hp goes down enough that you realise you should escape.

I have provided a counter example. There's a whole thread that you was directed to and participated in https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25605 whre the only objection you appear to have is to derail it with irrelevancy. Whilst your maths individually might be factually correct...

You can do tomb safely as a melee brute by simply going there as your last rune and using your spare teleport, blink scrolls, haste and heal potions, which you should have plenty of if you assume melee brutes can do anything else in the game safely, which i assume you do. Teleports, haste and heal ...

That perfect characters would rarely die, is a bad measurement to use to gauge the deadliness of a monster. In any case, what would anyone define as popcorn, and not-popcorn? You can't just always freely press and hold tab and kill a troll pack, so it seems fair to say that deep troll packs aren't p...

354x quitting

What is going on here?

It doesn't matter what VAF's and your method is damerell, that if your calculation gives the same answer as VAF's; it makes no sense because SH is independent of EV. If yours and VAF's maths contradicts the fsim, (which was provided gracefully by VAF), and contradicts the game mechanics of crawl, th...

I see sorry, my mistake. I thought youw as asking what disarm was , not how it relates to posing a danger to melee. Anyways, I would say that at depths and zot, trying to stab anything sleeping is just risky as those levels seems to be packed full of enemies. I think there are some special levels wi...

You are using the wrong method again VAF, for if chance to be hit decreased by 4% from 100% to 96%, it is nowhere as effective as chance to be hit decreased from 4% to 0%

Doesn't lignification give the same increase in HP? I don't think cancellation will do anything. You already dead. the best you can hope for is to take a few steps.

@Damerall it is correct to say that if the defences are high, you might as well decide to invest in offence, if the offence is low, and indeed we all agree on that. It is also entirely irrelevant, as if that character does decide to improve defences, to decide whether or not to improve SH or EV, the...

duvessa wrote:I'm also wondering what the hell disarm is.

There used to be an nonrandart short blade artefact called Captain's Cutlass that could disarm.

No it doesn't make sense. Let's compare 2 characters. One has 30% chance to dodge attacks, another has 70% chance to dodge attacks. Now let's add a shield which blocks 20% attacks. First character blocks 20% attacks and dodges 0.8*0.3=24% attacks so it blocks/dodges 44% attacks which is roughly 46% ...

Try drinking a potion of lignification. It might help a little. You are still dead though.

Personally I don't like that both two headed ogres and ettins exist. Seems kind of redundant. Ettins also have the death yak problem. That two headed ogres aren They do seem kind of common though, but it could be confirmation bias as they are one of the few regular threats that can kill you in one o...

Stonar wrote:You can win the game with no armor or god or weapons, that doesn't make it easy.

What if you was a troll?

No it doesn't. It makes utterly no sense. The maths looks like it makes sense but it makes utterly no sense that to block/dodge 24% is blocking 44% You cannot explain how it makes sense, because it makes no sense at all. You can only insult me. You wrote: "blocks/dodges 44%" is the same st...

You VeryAngryFelid have shifted the goalpost several times and each time you have been shown wrong. Did you mention train? I can't be bothered to check right now, but hey, I'll be the better person than you and admit I may be wrong. Not that it matters, for whether the SH or EV is gained through tra...

No sieghurt, I understand his point that when defences are high, it might be better to train offence; there is no disagreement there as we all agree on this point, but that's just him moving the goalpost. Unfortunately, that wasn't what he was arguing for in the first place: Why would higher EV resu...

First character blocks 20% attacks and dodges 0.8*0.3=24% attacks so it blocks/dodges 44% attacks which is roughly 46% (44/30*100%-100%) improvement. Can you not see that he has completely swopped his numbers around? For his first character, it makes no sense to claim that to be hit 24% of the time...

But your original argument was that if your EV is high, you are better off training EV than SH Lol, what? My initial and current and future claim is that SH is less useful to high EV character than it is to low EV characters. Really?... https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25583 ...

It's not a maths fantasy. I didn't even use any real maths in my last post, just words! If you can't do maths, you should have never introduced maths into it in the first place. The maths says that SH is independent of EV. The game fsim says the same thing. Describing it in words says the same thing...

The effectiveness of a defence depends on the effectiveness of another defence because, well it does. If HP was doubled, but EV effectiveness was halved, then broadly speaking, your defences are the same. If HP was halfed but in relative terms the EV effectiveness is doubled, then broadly speaking y...

I am wondering why Ash would be as valuable as some of the other gods for extended.

At this point I am just wondering what is the point you are trying to make theangryfelid. No matter what metric you are using, as long as it makes sense, as you have gone from minimize number of lost HP, 1 Hp left scenario, fsim, turns to live, the result is still the same. The result of your varyin...

Btw, just so you know, Extra time taken before dying, is basically the same metric as Effective HP, is basically the same metric as minimising the HP lost before dying. The sole metric i am using is "defensive power", not "offensive power". Anyways, in terms of absolute extra tur...

In scenario 1) and scenario 3) of EV 0 and EV 30, the shield is just as useful. I don't get why you don't understand this. You can fsim it again if you like. In scenario 2) at EV 10 000 000, will you never be hit? You'll have to fsim it for me. Assuming that you will never be hit at EV 10 000 000, t...

You can agree to disagree, but you will have to say why. You did write that what you care about was whether the usefulness of SH doesn't change depending on EV value. I am arguing about "is shield less useful to character with high EV than it is to character with low EV". In the other thre...

You are correct within your model, and take the correct approach ("effective HP"). I didn't check all the details, but the basic point is fine. However, the main thing to keep in mind is that "all models are wrong, but some are useful". Your model isn't too useful. Crawl isn't a...

Spoilered this because otherwise people think I am mathematically modelling the entrety of crawl for some reason This is going to be more of the basic maths to modelling survivability, which will apply real life situations and most games. The maths is very simple and basic. I wouldn't be going i...

You wrote the same thing. I care about blocked/dodged attacks so I use 44/30 as metrics while you care about unblocked/undodged attacks and use 70/56. I believe your formula for improvement is wrong. For instance, if you get undodged attacks from 10% to 1%, you will get 1000% improvement while in r...

That maths isn't right. You've either swopped the probabilities for 30% dodge with the 70% dodge somewhere and/or applied 1/(P) when you shouldn't have. How did you get [ 24% attacks so it blocks/dodges 44% attacks ]and [56% attacks so it blocks/dodges 76% ] ? I am going to use your wierd mathematic...

Why would higher EV result in SH become less useful? I would consider that just as strange as saying that the higher SH I have the less useful EV becomes. I would regard SH just as useful no matter what the EV is, just as I would regard EV just as useful no matter the SH. i feel like I am missing so...

I would say go for the 3 rune win. You will probably regret it, if you die doing extended. Though I suppose that if you do a 3 rune win, you might look back later and wish you have tried for the extended and if you can get to the orb once, you can always get to the orb with a new character again. Lo...

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