luring

Ikuqaza hates everything that moves.

piety on kills

1* can only move when there are no enemies in LOS. EV set to 0, AC tripled.
2* passive song of slaying
3* hp on kills
4* mp on kills
5* torment immunity, rN+++
6* blink enemies closer.
7* the Orb of Zot is teleported to your location.

Obviously the best parts of this god is the torment immunity and preventing tedious luring.

This thread reminds me of the other one about luring somehow not being an intuitive tactic.

None of the things you said make any sense. Any reasonably intelligent player can figure out luring is a good idea without having access to that kind of info.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:What makes noise and what doesn't

wrong. if you don't know what makes noise then you should assume everything makes noise. ergo, you should lure.
Edit: If you were going hiking and you know that there's poison ivy around but no one in your hiking group knows what it looks like, do you avoid random shrubs or do you assume poison ivy doesn't exist and walk through random plants?

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Under what conditions monsters "notice" the player

Not needed at all. It's pretty obvious that monsters far away from you are less likely to notice you, and the game gives plenty of ways to learn this, with sleeping monsters, what happens when you run away and take another staircase down, etc.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Whether the game cheats and gives monsters information they really shouldn't have

again, staircase swapping teaches this very quickly

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Whether monsters know where noise comes from

once you realize that more monsters are appearing after some shout, this is a no-brainer. Orc:$ teaches this very well.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:How monsters behave if they haven't "noticed you"

they obviously aren't making a beeline to your location. "Marked" status teaches this pretty well.

On top of observing monsters, the fact that spells have an indication of their noise level in their description clearly communicates that noise is more than just cosmetic.
So, sorry, its hardly spoilery that noise does something.

You don't need an in-depth understanding of how noise works to make luring obvious. All you need to know is that things make noise which dissipates as it travels through different types of terrain. A very large set of players know this.

So obviously if you move farther away from the black any noise generated is less likely to attract other monsters.

dynast wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:There are different kinds of luring:
1) Luring to fight in better terrain (kill hole, corridor, stairs, near traps etc.)
2) Luring to avoid getting more monsters from noise
3) Luring to split packs
4) "Luring" used as an escape method
I believe all those luring tactics are good and can stay but they must not be that time consuming.

So basically you dont wanna nerf luring but "kiting"(dragging a monster around with no specific goal for the sake of it because it is not faster than you)instead. Personally, i would just mesmerize the player after spending too much time in the LoS of a monster and communicate it with "look dude, i know what you are up to".

This only works if you think people should never be able to run from monsters. Your criteria doesn't differentiate between (for example) running away to the stairs and pillar dancing.

Um, that and the stairs are the point. You don't have the penalty because you're upstairs...
Then you come back down and fight the thing on safe terrain...

Who waits for dangerous monsters to be adjacent before luring them to the stairs? I'd lure them while there is still some distance between us, climb the stairs, wait off the penalty, then descend and attack.

Luring us not an exploit. Luring is a result of terrain existing. It is obvious to new players to lure to chokepoints, lure to locations where you only have one orc priest on the screen, etc.

Luring for noise reasons is also not an exploit. It is an unfun result of the noise mechanics. Once you understand how noise works it is also obviously optimal to do.

dynast wrote:
ydeve wrote:what? *brain breaks down trying to process the statement*
That statement is so incredibly wrong...

If you want to auto explore with something optimal on your hand, wield a ranged weapon, preferably a hand crossbow or blowgun. If you need to swap weapon to run from something it is because you dont know basic risk management and just put yourself on a dumb situation, try processing what you should do to avoid dangerous situations instead of how you would run from them, also, auto exploring is not even optimal to start with.

Blowguns are bad without training throwing, and if you've trained throwing there's no reason to wield a launcher instead of a resistance stick.
Luring is a fundamental part of crawl, and not wielding a resistance stick while doing so is strictly suboptimal.

This is similar to the motivation behind cutting dungeon levels. They provide lots of xp with mostly minimal risk to your character. This is also related to the whole "DCSS doesn't have a clock" discussion.

However, I don't see it being particularly bad as long as those optional areas have interesting monsters. Shoals is a better example. People regard it as rather dangerous, and I find it's combination of terrain and monsters interesting to play. Tomb is a bad example, as has already been discussed to death.

Some of the optional non-rune areas that I don't like as much:
Many of the Lair endings are rather uninteresting for various reasons. The Death Yak / Catoblepi centered ones suffer from luring making them rather easy. And the Dire Elephant temple isn't (imo) dangerous enough because the elephants are speed 10. If you add some snake statues or even fire crab or rime drake statues it would be more interesting.

Getting through Elf 3 tends to be a grind when I'm playing a caster.

gammafunk wrote:Wahaha has ruined crawl before with his simulationist-metroidvania-roguelikelike proposals and patches that are basically lifted wholesale straight from Brogue, and now he's doing it again. Thank this post if you agree that his councilor status should be revoked (again).

Thank

archaeo wrote:The things about Fedhas that I find kind of annoying:
The list of things that prayer does is kind of nuts, and Fedhas is now the only god that does corpse sacrifice. I'd make the two extra effects (skeletonizing zombies or killing ghouls) just happen some piety-dependent percentage of the time when they come into LOS and turn the corpse sacrifice into an (a)bility.
Fedhas is essentially "luring: the god." Most of this is honestly fine to me; oklobs feel limited and powerful and if Crawl didn't have a terrain-effect god we'd have to invent a new one. But Wandering Mushrooms' movement gimmick is almost comically frustrating even if they're still OP and encourage "optimal" tactics. I prefer herding a whole horde of orcs to handling three shrooms, tbh.
I hate food, ergo, I hate fruit costs. I'd scrap these and rebalance around piety costs alone, honestly.

thanks

This would also result in making escaping any encounter trivial (don't like that black mamba, just walk away), unless the "rooms" were big. But if the rooms were big, you just made luring easier to do.

When I lure, I don't stand in the nearest corridor and fight. I'd still be near the black and other monsters could be attracted by the noise. (This is not called "luring," this is called "positioning"). Sure, I'd fight them one at a time, but I wouldn't be able to rest in between.

Instead, I'll walk 1.5-2.5 screens back and pummel them whether I'm in a corridor or not. No other monsters are likely to show up anyway. Plus I can rest up to full hp before going to lure the next monster.

Edit: To clarify, the first doesn't change the general location of the fight, the second does.
Also, the first does not make use of noise to catch the attention of monsters one at a time, instead it's lack of noise control has the possibility of making more monsters find you.

As an example of using noise for luring, you stand back from a room that you can't see into and throw rocks into it. Once a monster stumbles into view, you start running away. The other monster's wouldn't have been able to pinpoint where you are, so only the first monster follows you.

radinms wrote:"One of the best tactics is luring. it is cheap cost action so you should always do that when not turn attacks. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance. "
-- everyone except many Japanese agree.

"One of the best tactics is resting. You should always do that until full HP/MP. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance."
-- everyone except me disagreed.

Any difference on luring and resting?
Both are same because they spend many turns for safety.
If you say "resting is ok because of being bad score", you should also say "luring is ok because of being bad score".

Yes, there are multiple differences.

Luring:
Takes dangerous encounters and trivializes them.
The game is not designed around luring. In fact, there are (unsuccessful) measures in place to reduce how powerful it is (noise).
Is tedious and takes a ton of key presses.

Resting:
Does not trivialize dangerous encounters. The encounters are designed to be dangerous for a full-hp character.
Thus, the game is designed around players resting.
Is not tedious at all, as it only requires one, at max three key presses.

crate wrote:
Once they [monsters] reach melee range, they will never leave it unless you use a consumable.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure how this is a problem. This is pretty much how melee combat in crawl is supposed to work, given that pillar-dancing is seen as undesirable and to-be-prevented. If the goal of energy randomization was to make combat un-sticky, okay I guess I'm wrong here (my understanding is this was not the reasoning behind energy randomization, and I don't recall it ever being brought up as a reason for energy randomization to continue to exist, but obviously I am not a dev).

Maybe this clears it up. Speed 11 monsters prevent fleeing from fights in almost all cases, not just for melee. If you turn a corner and see a pack of monsters you can't handle, you have to burn a consumable, because just walking away (before they reach melee range) is no longer an option.

Instead of reducing tedious behavior, this would increase it, as players would be encouraged to run back to the stairs more often. It replaces luring in general with luring+stairdancing (they're the same thing now - you can still break up packs using stairs, but it's more tedious than luring ever was). Except not engaging in the behavior is worse for you than not luring now.

In other words, crawl becomes Zot defense with the option of stairdancing.

Magic dart is barely useful after D1-3. Blink doesn't help you kill things, which Wz needs. Flame cloud is much harder to connect with a target and much easier to use with access to MC anyway. MC disables the opponent and gives infinite free stabs. I'm really not sure what your point about luring is.

As a reference, I play mostly noisy casters, and I've found myself luring quite a bit. Spells make a huge amount of noise, causing monsters to cone in from all over, and I only have a limited amount of mp. I find it safer to lure the enemy back a little bit (not multiple screens though, too tedious) before blasting them. I always constantly walk back to the stairs to keep my exit path open because autoexplore does weird things.

Ceann wrote: Does luring save you from getting poisoned to death in spider without rPois? Nope. Does luring save you from getting killed by Sirens in shoals? Nope. Does luring stop a Deep Elf annihilator from hitting you for 90 with LCS? Nope.

Actually, luring saves you from these things very effectively. You don't usually die to a single spider, even without rPois. A siren by itself is harmless. A Deep Elf annihilator is squishy enough that if you can't kill it before it kills you you have no business being in Elf. These monsters, indeed almost all monsters in Crawl, are dangerous only when there are other monsters around. 3 spiders could kill you without rPois. Sirens prevent you from escaping or killing more dangerous monsters. DE annihilators hitting you with LCS is devastating when you're taking damage from other monsters.

Ceann wrote:I can go on but I hope that you get my point, resistances, gods "makleb healing...really?" consumables, evo's, do way more to remove monster variance in regards to killing the player than luring does.

Resistances, extra AC, gods, consumables, etc are no where near as good as fighting each monster one at a time and completely healing before each fight. If you can't kill a single monster you are way ood, but if you can't handle a group that's a different story.

Ceann wrote:If you want to have a good score it is probably entirely less than optimal. If luring matters that much then remove scoring entirely, because if luring matters, then scores don't matter.

You've hit the nail on the head here. For a large number of players, I'd guess even the majority of players, scores don't matter at all. I'd argue that most players don't speedrun. They enjoy playing different combos and count "score" mostly by how many runes they got and if they managed to win. So the score disincentive to luring is completely meaningless to the majority of players.

ion_frigate wrote:All characters, melee, caster, and ranged would have to think more carefully about how much of a group they can kill - I don't think that's a problem, and it works very well in Brogue. It's not even that huge a nerf to casters anyway: if you manage to run out of MP attacking a large group of monsters and need to retreat, there's a good chance the survivors are already in melee range anyway. And "attack part of a group, retreat up stairs, come down different stairs, repeat" is a really dull strategy that deserves to die anyway.

I fail to see how this proposal stops running upstairs to press 5. Sure, you can't come back down the same flight of stairs because you have low AC and tons of monsters waiting there, but there are 3 flights of stairs...

ETA: Also, any caster with experience would not be surrounded with a bunch of enemies in melee range when they run out of MP. You run early, so you go upstairs with like 1 death yak and half your mp, kill the death yak safely, then press 5. Then go down a different staircase if there are a bunch of monsters below, which happens already because of conjurations noise

Like Siegurt said, making it harder or not possible to lure the way you're describing with 1),2), and 4) don't discourage luring but rather make it no longer an option.

3) Is much better. It provides a cost while still allowing the activity

Search found 20 matches: luring

Ikuqaza the Immobile

Re: Amulet swapping with reflection

Re: Brand Adjustment: Improving On Protection

Re: Brand Adjustment: Improving On Protection

Re: Luring nerf

Re: Luring nerf

Re: Luring nerf

Re: Brand Adjustment: Improving On Protection

Re: Brand Adjustment: Improving On Protection

Re: Orbs of Fire Malmutes

Re: Luring reform

Re: Redesign Fedhas

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)

Re: resting

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)

Re: Shouldn't poison magic have some high level spells?

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)

Re: Luring (was: DCSS has a power creep problem)