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Metabolic Englaciation is pretty strong, btw. Though somewhat expensive. It's nice that you can increase spellpower using a ring of ice.

Also, slow, in general, is underrated.

I just use "/" and "Ctrl-/" for my most common attack spells. Works pretty well.

Anyway, this is offtopic.

bel: I think you overstretched your logic somewhere again. At least I cannot follow. Who claimed that everything is pointless? And how scepticism is involved at all? The initial discussion was a limited one: whether to buff (or otherwise change) Deep Trolls. Clearly, Deep Trolls are not the most da...

I cannot discuss a claim that says everything is pointless. There's no common ground to build on.

In epistemology, it is known that radical skepticism cannot be refuted. There's no point even trying.

No, it's not hurting me, and I don't care if you argue Til Kingdom Come. I was giving a suggestion. Up to you to follow it, or not.

That is no different from any other monster encounter in Crawl. It is always "optimal" to lure every monster every time. There's nothing special about Deep Trolls here. Indeed, in "Berder's guide to safe crawling", he explicitly says this: Lure lure lure lure lure enemies back in...

Why is this still going on? There's no referee here. All sides: declare victory and go home.

No pain, no gain.

Your sentence has two parts: I thought that she would agree that the game would be better if all (or almost all) slow packs were changed, for example, to make them faster, or make them not a pack [...] If you do this, there will be no speed-10 packs left. [..] or give them some ability so you cannot...

We don't have to debate this point, because duvessa agrees with me: the claim that "you don't have to fight them all at once" is simply ridiculous: using that logic, there is no point to any pack in the game. I think this is pretty much true for slow packs, and to a lesser extent for melee...

I explicitly did not discuss the validity of duvessa's claim. Indeed, I took the claim as true, and made explicit what it implied. It is my impression that gammafunk is NOT proposing that all speed-10 packs be eliminated. If he is indeed saying that, let him come out and say it. Then we can have a p...

No, but I also take your other claims about Crawl seriously. Which do imply the statement I made.

Needless to say, I do not think gammafunk is proposing that every speed-10 monster pack be eliminated. That would be a much larger discussion.

the claim that "you don't have to fight them all at once" is simply ridiculous: using that logic, there is no point to any pack in the game. I think this is pretty much true for slow packs, and to a lesser extent for melee packs in general. Centaur packs work fine, but when was the last t...

Deep troll packs as a whole can sometimes be dangerous, but they are really not all that dangerous. If deep troll packs become somewhat more dangerous than they are now, we can adjust their frequency of placement accordingly, should that actually be necessary. Depths is just in no way shape or form...

I can report that I also find Deep Troll packs to be reasonably hard, and the claim that "you don't have to fight them all at once" is simply ridiculous: using that logic, there is no point to any pack in the game.

Wtf, Berder is ninja-ing all my posts.

Originally duvessa referred to two-headed ogres. You brought up Deep Trolls. One or both or neither can be popcorn. I was just asking what is your definition. You say that the replacements will get even more kills. But my question (and Berder's) is why Deep Troll packs need to be buffed at all, give...

The devil is in the details. What counts as a popcorn monster? Do Deep Trolls count? And what does this sentence mean? The argument that popcorn monsters do something sometimes is not very compelling, generally speaking. As Berder showed above, "sometimes" is actually "quite frequent&...

Yes, of course, one doesn't need to do it. I was simply saying that one should keep in mind the point I raised above. One reading of the OP is saying that one can simply remove two-headed ogres from Depths. My point is simply that popcorn can still be dangerous if it's part of a pack, or simply part...

Seems misleading to post raw monster kill statistics without accounting for the quantity of each type of monster generated. There are significantly more deep trolls than liches generated in depths in a typical game, for example. This is a good point, however when the discussion is about what to do ...

Well, they might still hold to their belief that armoured brutes are the best in Crawl \ {Tomb}.

Unfortunately, your formula says "HP", not "maxHP". And you don't (mostly) die to average rolls. Another point one could mention: there are many non-melee enemies, which fsim doesn't handle. Another point: you don't fight 1v1 always. A simple example: with Statue Form, you will o...

The experiment is interesting, but I find the method of calculating "advantages" rather dubious. When you say, by training fighting you get "23/18 * 2.2/2.0 = 40% improvement", what does it actually mean? Is this "advantage" comparable to other "advantages"? M...

Next time, don't worry about troves. By the time you can access them, they're of very marginal use. And for God's sake, don't do a Zig to try to get into a trove.

Are you annoyed that your death was unfair in some way? Or what exactly?

Furthermore you must recognise that each time you post in this thread it is not to address the entire previous post but to desperately single out some particular point to object to. I have no interest in this discussion, but just because someone picks a point to reply to doesn't mean that they're t...

Train more Fighting. Armour Skill has negligible effect on spell failure rate. If you want to reduce failure rate, train the spell schools directly. Spellcasting has a small effect: 1 point of spellcasting = 1/4 point of training every school. If you include the full dump (especially including the a...

You can dig killholes into the walls in Snake.

Trident of distortion does much more damage than demon trident of venom. Not to mention: the former can effectively instakill a monster by banishing it.

If you had a demon trident of distortion it would have been a different matter.

You should wear the plate because it has higher AC, higher GDR, and you can increase the AC by training more armour. These factors more than compensate for the lower EV. Relying on EV and light armour is fine for casters because they rely on spells to do damage, and typically have low Str. Casting s...

Spell slots aren't relevant. The issue is the (opportunity) cost vs. the benefit. Firstly, it will take a long time to get statue form castable. In the meantime, the XP you spend on it is strictly wasted. Secondly, you have to wear light (or no) armour, so your defences will be bad in the meantime. ...

Both are fine. Keep in mind that you can actually train shields past 9. Fo have good shields aptitude (much better than their dodging apt). You also have an amulet of reflection, so your SH is also useful offensively. I do not understand why you're training transmutations, or indeed any spells. Stat...

You don't need Sequell queries to show that Octopodes are hard.

I never found Nagas or Fo to be hard. I don't play Mummies. Felids are not hard, but are very annoying.

You are correct within your model, and take the correct approach ("effective HP"). I didn't check all the details, but the basic point is fine. However, the main thing to keep in mind is that "all models are wrong, but some are useful". Your model isn't too useful. Crawl isn't an...

This whole discussion about EV and SH is pointless, and it's very unlikely that the OP (or anyone else) cares about it.

That's the "Grudge" patch. It doesn't exist in vanilla nethack.

I find the scenario (heavy armor melee with venom dagger) to be rather farfetched. Is there any evidence that this happens? But since the OP says they don't plan to defend the premise here, I won't post ITT anymore.

with no sources of wizardry, that deep elf would have a ~60% failure rate for fireball (regular shield raises it to ~20%), that's how strong vehumet's wizardry is. the spell rate change was also added after 0.21 so it has no impact here Surely this is a bug? It can't be intentional to provide such ...

Luckily, nobody is talking about vault removal, but rather making them transparent. The point is not "consensual risk" (what does consent have to do with the issue? Nobody is forcing the player to do anything). The issue is that you should know what the risk is , so you can give informed c...

A faded altar tells you exactly what it does. There's no comparison at all with an opaque vault. I already said in the first post why the "optimal people can ignore them" is wrong. If you had perfect information, it would not be optimal to ignore them. I gave a simple example just above. B...

Things can't be perfect, so we should make no effort to make them better.

Since the transporters are well indicated on the Ctrl-O screen, I usually like to ignore them at first and return to them later when I am stronger... I hope you can appreciate that this is not a good feature: a vault whose risks are completely unknown; so you wait till your character is so strong t...

I looked at some more of your morgues. For instance: this is a DE caster of Sif with a shield. From the notes, it seems you started training shields in Snake (probably because you found a +4 shield of protection), only trained shields to 10 until Zot. The penalty with 10 shields was probably not cri...

It seems to me that in 2 out of 3 games (including the important Vehumet case), you didn't wear a shield.

And even the Ash case is dubious for generalization because Ash provides skill boosts: you hadn't reached 15 (base) shields even by the time you finished the game.

Well, if it's an unusual game, why are we discussing it in DCA? Post a dump of two or three of your usual games, and then we can discuss it.

The problem is: this is DCA, and one should be discussing typical Deep Elf characters. Many of your points fail to generalize. Your game is highly unusual: you have found +12 int gear, +2 shield early (and no good buckler), a +4 ring mail (and no good robe), and a great spell selection. The +12 int ...

To the OP, you can watch some people play Deep Elves online and see how they play. Vehumet is ok for Deep Elf elementalist. It may be not the strongest, but it's straightforward and smooth. For a DESu, Sif would be better. I don't ever wear full shields on a DE caster. A buckler is more than enough....

nvm, too much discussion of Nem power level.

You don't get (functionally) infinite box of beasts or sack of spiders charges in every game right from the start.

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