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ID Category Severity Reproducibility Date Submitted Last Update
0006716 [DCSS] Bug Report tweak have not tried 2013-03-01 12:30 2014-05-05 17:25
Reporter Saegor View Status public  
Assigned To mumra
Priority normal Resolution suspended  
Status resolved   Product Branch 0.11 ancient branch
Summary 0006716: improve monsters turned neutral (elyvilon's healing) behaviour
Description this was probably already said but when you turn a monster neutral with elyvilon, you can't walk trought the monster. it's very annoying in corridors(for example : trapped by two neutral bats). nobody can find some good idea to improve this behaviour ?

why seem it intended that we can't walk trought neutral monsters ?
Additional Information
Tags No tags attached.
Attached Files

- Relationships
related to 0000326closedadvil Pacified creatures will get stuck on doors 

-  Notes
(0021209)
chris (updater)
2013-03-01 12:40

Completely agree.

Also good luck with exploring a level where you pacified something that you currently can't see. Penance for bumping into it almost guaranteed (even with autoexplore).

The situation where you're trapped in corridors definitely happens more often though, but it'd be very nice interface-wise to not produce penance that feels like there's nothing you could have done about it. For pacified unseen horrors there just is no way you can know where they are without SInv.
(0021210)
dpeg (administrator)
2013-03-01 12:42

The issue is known and has been discussed at length. There does not seem to a decent proposal around.

Why swapping position with neutral monsters is undesirable: this makes them like allies, and as such much stronger than intended. For example, you could pacify something and then hide behind it.

Some ideas that have been thrown out: you cannot swap positions with pacified monsters, but they can swap position with you. Or swapping is possible, but takes a while (so it's not tactically safe).

Perhaps an Elyvilon power can be used (prayer?).

In any case, this is not really a bug report. What's rhe protocol -- just close?
(0021212)
Napkin (administrator)
2013-03-01 13:44

Saegor, please update your email address in the Mantis system. I'm getting these errors from google.com:

xxxxxx@gmail.com
 SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<xxxxxx@gmail.com>:
 host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::1b]:
 550 5.2.1 The email account that you tried to reach is disabled.

[removed your email address]

Thanks!
(0021243)
Saegor (reporter)
2013-03-03 18:25
edited on: 2013-03-03 18:28

@dpeg: maybe add a prayer that turn the neutral creature into allied one for a very short amount of time ? (but that will not solve the unseen horror case)

@Napkin: it's done!

(0021245)
minmay (reporter)
2013-03-04 00:05

How about just making monsters disappear when you pacify them? "The <foo> leaves the dungeon."
(0021250)
ion_frigate (reporter)
2013-03-04 12:38

Or how about, monsters try to path to the nearest staircase. It doesn't have to be in their LOS, since we can assume that the monster, living in the dungeon, knows where the stairs are. They treat the player as a wall: they will always try to path around him/her, as opposed to through. Thus, the situation of two bats in a corridor won't occur: they fly away to the closest staircase.
(0021251)
Saegor (reporter)
2013-03-04 12:56
edited on: 2013-03-04 12:57

@iron_frigate : the problem remain that if a door is closed or a monster is present in the opposite direction in the corridor where you encounter the blocking neutral, the neutral creature will be blocked anyway (and will spoil the dungeon structure if it don't move or try to go in your direction)

for problems example, considering this two scenarios where b is neutral :

##############
.@..b........+
##############

- or -

##############
.@..b........g
##############


so the best solution is maybe to let the neutral disappear (nearly) immediatly when pacified

(sorry for bad english)

(0021263)
ion_frigate (reporter)
2013-03-05 13:06

The second scenario wouldn't be a problem: either the bat would kill the goblin and continue on its merry way to the stairs, or it would get killed and no longer be in the way. Neutral monsters always fight hostile ones in their path.

As for the first scenario, it's true that that could happen on *one side* of a corridor. But for there to be no staircases on both sides of a player in a corridor would require a disconnected bubble, which shouldn't occur outside of portal vaults. Even then, the issue is fairly resolvable by making monsters that can't path to the stairs wander.

As for information leakage from monsters fleeing, IMO that's thematic and interesting, instead of being a problem. Think of all those movies where the protagonists find the way out by watching where rats flee to: its the same idea. It's also an incredibly minor info leak.
(0021280)
TannedBear (reporter)
2013-03-06 06:23

@Saegor: If pacified monster disappears immediately disappears, that will be nerf. Think what happens when you heal an orc in group of orcs(warrior, priest, wizard..etc)
(0021294)
crate (reporter)
2013-03-06 15:39

(and Ely is already ridiculously strong so a nerf in that manner is completely fine)

Personally I support pacified monsters disappearing immediately.
(0021533)
mumra (developer)
2013-03-15 14:49

I've linked to this ticket from the devwiki page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:elyvilon&#pacified_monster_interaction_with_player [^]

Is "bumping into invisible pacified monsters gives Ely penance" a bug?

If not I should closed/suspend this issue until an adequate proposal is agreed on the wiki. (I don't really see the corridors as a bug - this just means you should prefer open areas to use pacification. Disappearing monsters on pacification would solve the mechanical problems but this seems to completely lose the flavour that you've just pacified something.)
(0021597)
Vinterriket (reporter)
2013-03-17 05:43

Would it be possible to have the pacified monster initially move away from the player as though the player caused Fear (somehow thematically appropriate?) before the monster starts the stairs path-finding?

This might help mitigate some of the corridor blockage issues.
(0021716)
mumra (developer)
2013-03-20 18:37

Vinterriket: Please add your comment to the devwiki entry I linked to. Discussion about feature requests should take place there. I would like to determine whether the invisible monsters issue mentioned by chris counts as a bug:

"Also good luck with exploring a level where you pacified something that you currently can't see. Penance for bumping into it almost guaranteed (even with autoexplore)."

I think this probably doesn't count as a bug, it's the player's fault for running around knowing that an invisible neutral is around, you should probably either avoid pacifying things you can't see, or wait a good number of turns afterward if you really had no choice.

If nobody disagrees with that then I can close this issue until a proposal is agreed if ever.
(0021719)
dpeg (administrator)
2013-03-20 20:36

mumra: not a bug. If we wanted, there could be a message when you pacify something invisible but I don't think that is necessary.

Will comment on the wiki page (ion_frigate's proposal is a good one). Closing.
(0021750)
chris (updater)
2013-03-21 23:33

mumra: Cool, can you tell us how exactly we verify whether an invisible pacified monster is still on the level or has left already? I must have missed the indication of that so far.
(0021752)
mumra (developer)
2013-03-22 01:29

chris: Obviously there's no indication; if you choose to pacify something you can't see then you're accepting a risk - you know it will path to the nearest stairs, so stay out of the way of that most likely route, maybe go and clear a different floor for a while. Maybe don't pacify invisible things in the first place if it creates a risk. I'm not saying this is ideal, but it's not like Ely needs a buff. You could argue that Ely is angry that you pacified something *knowing* that you might later bump into it and hurt it.

If there were to be a solution to this I guess it would be either:
a) Ely gives a halo to pacified monsters including invisibles, or
b) Ely tells you when an invisible pacified monster leaves the level
(0021753)
chris (updater)
2013-03-22 01:38

I didn't claim Ely needs a buff, but if interface bugs are in fact necessary to keep balance, something went very wrong elsewhere.
I do like the halo proposal, maybe abusing a perm_ench:corona instead because halos are associated with other gods.
(0021754)
crate (reporter)
2013-03-22 02:06

"if you choose to pacify something you can't see then you're accepting a risk - you know it will path to the nearest stairs"

fr this actually happens
(0021755)
mumra (developer)
2013-03-22 03:04

Ok sorry - getting things slightly mixed up here (it's late). Let me revise my comment: Under the current situation you should clearly avoid pacifying invisible monsters until you have SInv. I think it's a stretch to classify this as an interface *bug*, it's more like an emergent factor of the current gameplay mechanics.

Now there is an argument that those mechanics should be changed but the question is are they really broken?

Having monsters path predictably to the stairs sounds to me like you could set things up in corridors once you know where the stairs are so pacified monsters will try to wade through other monsters.
(0021758)
elliptic (developer)
2013-03-22 04:03

mumra: I often pacify invisible monsters without SInv, actually. I do sometimes get penance from attacking them, but if you don't move much right after pacifying them then it is not that likely, and Ely penance is not a big deal anyway.

If there is a problem with invisible monster pacification, I'd suggest just making that impossible. It makes some sense that you wouldn't be able to make an "offer of peace" to empty space (though the idea of an Elyvilonite going around talking to the air in an empty room is sort of amusing).

My opinion about improving pacified monster movement is that there's no need to make them more predictable than they are at getting to stairs, but it would be good if they didn't suddenly decide to stop moving altogether for no apparent reason the way they currently like to do. In addition, pacified monsters should disappear after a certain amount of time even if you stay close to them (currently they only disappear if you go a certain distance away iirc).
(0022972)
dpeg (administrator)
2013-05-31 15:50

For what it's worth, I fully second what elliptic said.
(0026052)
Saegor (reporter)
2014-05-05 17:25

can i propose to come back to the first problem : we can't move trought pacified monsters.

it's very annoying, maybe somebody can code an ability for now : "move trought that neutral bat blocking my corridor" ;) with a small cost to avoid abuse of "neutral shield"

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2013-03-01 12:30 Saegor New Issue
2013-03-01 12:40 chris Note Added: 0021209
2013-03-01 12:42 dpeg Note Added: 0021210
2013-03-01 13:44 Napkin Note Added: 0021212
2013-03-03 18:25 Saegor Note Added: 0021243
2013-03-03 18:26 Saegor Note Edited: 0021243
2013-03-03 18:27 Saegor Note Edited: 0021243
2013-03-03 18:28 Saegor Note Edited: 0021243
2013-03-04 00:05 minmay Note Added: 0021245
2013-03-04 12:38 ion_frigate Note Added: 0021250
2013-03-04 12:56 Saegor Note Added: 0021251
2013-03-04 12:57 Saegor Note Edited: 0021251
2013-03-05 13:06 ion_frigate Note Added: 0021263
2013-03-06 06:23 TannedBear Note Added: 0021280
2013-03-06 15:39 crate Note Added: 0021294
2013-03-14 22:14 mumra Issue Monitored: mumra
2013-03-15 14:49 mumra Note Added: 0021533
2013-03-17 05:43 Vinterriket Note Added: 0021597
2013-03-20 18:37 mumra Note Added: 0021716
2013-03-20 20:36 dpeg Note Added: 0021719
2013-03-21 02:59 mumra Status new => resolved
2013-03-21 02:59 mumra Resolution open => suspended
2013-03-21 02:59 mumra Assigned To => mumra
2013-03-21 23:33 chris Note Added: 0021750
2013-03-22 01:29 mumra Note Added: 0021752
2013-03-22 01:38 chris Note Added: 0021753
2013-03-22 02:06 crate Note Added: 0021754
2013-03-22 03:04 mumra Note Added: 0021755
2013-03-22 04:03 elliptic Note Added: 0021758
2013-05-31 15:25 mumra Relationship added related to 0000326
2013-05-31 15:50 dpeg Note Added: 0022972
2014-05-05 17:25 Saegor Note Added: 0026052


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