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ID Category Severity Reproducibility Date Submitted Last Update
0000663 [DCSS] Bug Report minor always 2010-02-02 17:09 2011-10-22 02:30
Reporter cbus View Status public  
Assigned To rob
Priority normal Resolution no change required  
Status closed   Product Branch 0.6 ancient branch
Summary 0000663: amulet of guardian spirit not working with DD
Description When putting on an amulet of guardian spirit on a DD the mana is reset to 0 and never goes up again. The amulet is also not marked as dark grey if the case was that this is intentional.
Additional Information
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-  Notes
Nobody (reporter)
2010-02-02 17:28
edited on: 2010-02-02 17:29

That's intentional: see the trunk commit log, entry ab3ea04. All mana sources other than natural regeneration still work with the amulet.

cbus (updater)
2010-02-02 19:50

well then the colouring of the amulet is wrong for DD, it should be dark grey since it doesn't do anything :)
due (developer)
2010-02-03 01:46

It *does* work for Deep Dwarves. Potions of magic, channeling, etc, will still regenerate your Mana, and guardian spirit will work in that regard. There is also a very clear message (something along the lines of "you feel your magic stop regenerating") when you put it on. I'm not sure how much clearer this could be, will check.
Lemuel (updater)
2010-02-04 00:00

Is this really the behavior that's wanted?

Wouldn't it be better to have a greater variety of healing options for DDs? Right now, there are special-case rules like this one and then on the other hand the special-case starting /Healing and recharge ability. I would rather see more options, but less handholding -- e.g. let them use "GS but take away the starting wand and/or recharge power.
due (developer)
2010-02-04 00:02

I was for guardian spirit not working on Deep Dwarves at all; it was David who suggested that it merely stops regeneration of the mana pool. Otherwise, it's overpowered, as it's basically a source of free hit-points that actually regenerate, and there would be no reason for a Deep Dwarf not to wear it.
Lemuel (updater)
2010-02-04 01:39

There's a huge reason not to wear it, if you are a caster -- you won't have any mana when you need it. For noncasters, yes, it would be very attractive, but they are still giving up the amulet slot for it, and will still end up taking damage fairly often.

Basically, I don't understand the logic that says it's a problem if some items are more useful for DDs than for other characters. Why is it better to guarantee them a wand of healing, and nerf the amulet, vs. neither nerfing nor guaranteeing either one?
cbus (updater)
2010-02-04 11:22

And for non casters they usually don't tend to have that large mana pool. This amulet gives double "health pools" for other characters too, its great for Sp doing melee btw.
KiloByte (manager)
2010-02-04 12:21

The amulet is still a major boon for Makhlebites, and Makhleb already was the best god for DDs. They get effectively double the healing for kills (even if mana has a low cap), and with Makhleb, they tend to have Invo and thus a decent mana pool.

Of course, it is UTTERLY useless for DD casters, but oh well.

Lemuel: the wand has limited usage, unnerfed amulet works without limit.
cbus (updater)
2010-02-04 16:09

and how are they using the makhleb invocations that cost mana?
b0rsuk (updater)
2010-02-05 05:37
edited on: 2010-02-05 05:42

I can't help but notice that many changes and special cases were needed to implement DD. Perhaps it would be better if they weren't so radical ? If they merely healed very slowly, it would be less problematic.

by taking off the amulet and training Invocations ? Really, it's not that hard to train Invocations, expecially with Makhleb. The skill is 75 or 80 for everyone. Note the huge MP boost it gives at such little XP cost (try in wizmode - a level 10 or 20 character with 0 and 10+ Invocations). Spellcasting a bit yields more, but is much more expensive.

Unlike the new gods, the amulet is hard to playtest because the amulet is hard to find. And I haven't even found a cap or shield of guardian spirit yet. But in the few cases where I found it, it was very useful for races with low MP usage, like Ogre of Fedhas. It's not even the size of the pool that matters, 10 or 20 before Lair isn't much. Its the speed that counts, it's like a mega ring of regeneration (except it doesn't benefit from armour, shield etc because it's checked first). Even better, "the amulet regenerates" in parallel with health, so resting doesn't last any longer. I have no trouble believing it would be outright broken for a DD.

dpeg (administrator)
2010-02-05 14:18

b0rsuk: I disagree. I had a similar conversation with Erik about Spriggans, where I voted for no meat at all and he voted for marginal nutrition from meat. But the latter would be incredibly annoying to play... so we opted for no meat whatsoever.

Something similar holds for Deep Dwarves: replacing no healing by very little healing will only make matters worse. If we think that DD won't work, then we have to remove the species again. However, I am not too concerned: it is obvious that every new item affected healing will have an effect on DD as well.
jpeg (manager)
2010-02-05 14:23

Agree with dpeg. The absolute non-healing is the one thing we can't (and won't) compromise. We tried with the Vampires (originally, bat form was supposed to allow slow healing) and it didn't work out.
Lemuel (updater)
2010-02-05 16:39

I agree on absolute non-healing for DDs.

However, what I would like to see is to minimize the number of additional special rules needed to make that work. Just let the player play the game given the problem of no healing and figure out how to solve it themselves. Right now, there are both additional special cases to help them (uber starting item that no other race gets; recharge ability) and special cases to hurt them (like this one). That suggests the possibility of simplification.

What I would like to see is:

- DDs get the same starting gear as any other race (except maybe a !Healing or !HW) -- no more starting wands (except for Artificers, who could get /Healing instead of any other wand).

- All characters get a big HP boost on level-up -- say, an additional amount equal to the gain in maxHP, or half of current damage.) This will mainly help early DDs and compensate somewhat for the wand loss. And it's not really scummable -- you don't go up in level that often. In practice, it would be a reward for badly wounded characters who are fighting tough opponents -- an exciting situation the game should encourage.

- DDs lose the wand recharging ability. Wand recharging is added to a god (maybe Vehumet?), increasing god options for DDs. It would also be interesting to have a portal vault where the reward was some wand recharges -- DDs in particular would want to save their cash for it but it would be equally available to any char.

- Think about other god-themed healing options. E.g. give Jiyva an ability to draw life from nearby jellies -- which will also make all those neutral Js more interesting\. That will be much more effective in broadening DDs god choices than nerfing the amulet.

- "GS works normally for DDs. The synergy with Makhleb does not seem like a big deal, since you almost always are going to pick a god before finding the amulet. Yes, the chance of finding one later still makes M a bit more attractive, but so what? DEs are almost always going to want Sif or Vehumet. Some races have more constrained god options than others, that's fine.

- Achieve overall balance by adjusting damage-shaving.
doy (developer)
2010-02-05 22:06

Overall I agree with Lemuel, but this should probably move to the wiki. These changes are not a target for 0.6.0 in any case.
rob (developer)
2010-05-30 09:25

The issue itself is not a bug. I've linked to the discussion from the wiki. Feel free to move it there.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-02-02 17:09 cbus New Issue
2010-02-02 17:28 Nobody Note Added: 0001995
2010-02-02 17:29 Nobody Note Edited: 0001995
2010-02-02 19:50 cbus Note Added: 0001998
2010-02-03 00:27 Napkin Product Branch longterm planning (0.7+) => 0.6 development branch
2010-02-03 01:46 due Note Added: 0002016
2010-02-04 00:00 Lemuel Note Added: 0002044
2010-02-04 00:02 due Note Added: 0002045
2010-02-04 01:39 Lemuel Note Added: 0002052
2010-02-04 11:22 cbus Note Added: 0002062
2010-02-04 12:21 KiloByte Note Added: 0002064
2010-02-04 16:09 cbus Note Added: 0002071
2010-02-05 05:37 b0rsuk Note Added: 0002096
2010-02-05 05:42 b0rsuk Note Edited: 0002096
2010-02-05 14:18 dpeg Note Added: 0002121
2010-02-05 14:23 jpeg Note Added: 0002122
2010-02-05 16:39 Lemuel Note Added: 0002129
2010-02-05 22:06 doy Note Added: 0002151
2010-05-30 09:25 rob Note Added: 0005155
2010-05-30 09:25 rob Status new => resolved
2010-05-30 09:25 rob Fixed in Branch => 0.7 development branch
2010-05-30 09:25 rob Resolution open => no change required
2010-05-30 09:25 rob Assigned To => rob
2011-10-22 02:30 Kate Status resolved => closed

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